Masculinity in the USA!

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: James, I have been dating on both fr..., posted by Cali James on Jul 31, 2003

n/t.

[Cali James]

... in response to Brazilophile, ...., posted by Aaron on Jul 31, 2003

Hi Aaron,

I can't speak for Brazilophile but as far as I'm concerned, I'm very uncomfortable with some of the societal changes occuring here.  It's seems to me that there's been a concerted effort over the past several decades to create a unisex culture.  We moved away from celebrating the differences in gender to saying that there are no differences.  Today women dress like men and all to often men dress like women.  The American male is being conditioned to be feminine and the American female is being taught to act like a man.  This isn't a good thing IMO and a person can hold this view and still be secure in one's self.  

I was watching one of those celebrity roasts a few months back on television.  What a change from the Dean Martin days.  The contemporary roasts are just plain gross.  Every other joke had some overtly homosexual connotation. You'd think from watching the show that we're all gay these days.  What ever happened to a good ol' hetersexual joke.  

Anyway, I can't speak for the rest of the guys but one of the reasons I love Calenas is that they are feminine in the way I believe a woman should be.  Things have changed so much here in the States that a Latin American woman will stand out in a crowd of gringas.  My wife has been here six months now and I can't count how many times someone has commented on her style or femininity.  

Cali James

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Brazilophile, ...., posted by Cali James on Jul 31, 2003

That's 100% your own opinion. Yes, we can admit that Latinas in Latin America may dress and act more feminine, but a woman can be feminine and still pull her weight as well as a man can.

In my personal opinion, many men here confuse feminity with female sexual appeal. The two cross to a certain extent, but they are in many ways two different concepts.

I rather have an intelligent, independent, hard-working, assertive, and professional woman any day over having a woman who wants to wear high heals, g-strings, tight clothes, plastic implants, make-up, and pefume; but then tell the story about how "feminine" she is, and how she wants to take care of her family, and how an average American guy wont find a girl like her in the USA. The truth is, many Latinos (men and women) I know who have all post-graduate degrees tell me not to look for a woman like that, but to look for a woman who can pull her own weight.
And the societal changes happening in Latin America are because women there want to be more liberated, but still maintain their values, which can be done, and is a positive thing.

Secondly, I do not feel that there is a major trend of "role reversals" between men and women here in the USA. But, I do feel that many men here are foregoing their responsibility for being independent and maintaining a family. I don't have any problem with the independence of American women. I appreciate it.

Aaron

[Cali James]

... in response to Cali James, ... , posted by Aaron on Jul 31, 2003

Hi Aaron,

It seems to me you're creating a false dychotomy.  Being feminine in the sense I talked about it in no way means the woman is a bimbo or doesn't have a brain or career.  On the contrary, the Calenas I know are strong women through and through.

As for your friends (all with post grad degrees), they are probably most comfortable interacting with women from the same circles.  That's fine and I have no problem with this.  

On the other hand, people shouldn't assume that all the agency women dress like bimbos or can't carry on an intelligent conversation. I generally don't like to talk about my wife online but her femininity doesn't come at the expense of her being intelligent or having a career.  I'm quite proud of her actually, she's smart, opinionated, comes from a good family, graduated from a good university, Santiago de Cali, practiced law, made a good living, lived in a nice barrio and take a guess what, I met her at an agency.....

Cali James

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Cali James, ... , posted by Cali James on Jul 31, 2003

Can a woman be feminine, but not be sexy? The answer is yes.

But, when we reverse the question:

Can a woman be sexy, but not be feminine? The answer is no.

Then, having that, I am arguing that many guys get caught up in the sexual appeal of the woman, and claim if a woman is not sexy then she is not feminine. When in actuality, a woman can be very feminine, but lack sex appeal.

I like feminine women, and women who are sexy, but do not place too much emphasis on sex appeal to the extent of sacrificing their common sense.

Ask your wife. She'll set you straight.

Aaron

[Cali James]

... in response to James, ask yourself this question..., posted by Aaron on Jul 31, 2003

Hey Aaron,

I never mentioned "sexual appeal" in any of my posts.  I was only saying that I believe Calenas are more feminine than their gringa counterparts and that this is a quality I appreciate.  

Cali James

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: James, ask yourself this question..., posted by Cali James on Jul 31, 2003

claimed I was making a false dichotomy, when I wasn't. That's all.

Take care,
Aaron

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Cali James, ... , posted by Cali James on Jul 31, 2003

But, feminity and female sexual appeal are not the same thing. Yes, they are concepts that over lap, but they are different in some respects. Ask your wife about it.  

Aaron

[Mark33]

... in response to Cali James, ... , posted by Aaron on Jul 31, 2003

Aaron,
   I agree. I like the same type of woman. My fiance is educated,and smart. But she is also very sexy.In fact, I have tickled pink she is not the type to dress too sexy because then the guys would be all over her,and I would rather not have that.
 She is Filippina,not latina(not that it matters). I am very proud she can take care of herself financially if she ever had to.I never want a woman to stay with me because she has no other options.Yet,she is always willing to listen to what I want and tries damn hard to make me happy.
 We also have a common language since she is fluent in English. We have known each other for a few years,and are going to get married in December.
       Mark

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Cali James, ... , posted by Mark33 on Jul 31, 2003

n/t

[cancunhound]

... in response to Aaron, ..., posted by Brazilophile on Jul 31, 2003

OK I see this comment all to often.  Obviously these agencies have been very sucessful with their advertising propaganda.  If one truly convinces himself of that - he is going to be in for quite a shock - back in the states it doesn't take long for a SA latina to develop "American Values" - ask any married guy here.  So you've got a year at best living with that "values" dream.  The reason guys go down there is not a quest for values - pygmies in Africa have different values but nobody goes there.  The reason is simply the sexy latin women.  Why is it so hard to admit that?

[Red Clay]

... in response to "Looking for different values"..., posted by cancunhound on Jul 31, 2003

Not a myth.

Signed,

A Married Guy

[Pete E]

... in response to "Looking for different values"..., posted by cancunhound on Jul 31, 2003

I think most of us will admit we go south primarily to get a more attractive woman than we can get here.But the latina values is also a big plus,kind of the frosting on the cake.
And I don't think basic values tend to change very much when a woman gets here.She will have alot more possibilities and options and her attitde may change somewhat,but not the basic values she obtained growing up in her culture.
And there is a tendency to knock ameican women,pointing out some of the more extreme examples of confused unisex thinking.There are lots of good american women.But the supply and demand is such that you are not likely to get a very attractive one.
So yes,we go for attractiveness.We don't go because we can't find good attitudes here,they just usually don't come with good bodies.But the latina values is definetly a plus.

Pete

[Brazilophile]

... in response to "Looking for different values"..., posted by cancunhound on Jul 31, 2003

I feel that CH's comments are directed primarily at me.  I freely admit that I am attracted to Latinas PARTLY because I find them much sexier, both physically and emotionally, than AW.

However, I am also attracted to women raised in Latin culture because I find that more of them have a different attitude toward men, relationships, and family than do women raised in the US.  I am not saying that there are no materialistic, hard-core feminist Latinas (I have met a few).  I am not saying that there are no non-materialistic, non-feminist AW (I have met a few).  I am saying that after dealing with the competition in the workplace all day, I don't want to come home and deal with competition there all night.  I find that more Latinas share my attitude than AW.

CH, that may not be of value to you, but it is of high value to me.  Why is it so hard for you to admit that not every man shares your motives?

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: "Looking for different values&q..., posted by Brazilophile on Jul 31, 2003

[This message has been edited by cancunhound]

Actually I concur and at the very least you admit the PARTLY bit about latinas being sexier.  Seems like most guys here are kidding themselves however.  But don't kid yourself if you think some of these latina values are set in stone and won't become americanized after some time stateside.  I think the only way to assure that is to move down there like Cali vet, if the values thing is really a priority.