the truth about the source

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re:  Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 20, 2002

Tai,

The way a parent speaks with a 17 year old teenage daughter is very different then how they speak to her let's say 10 years later as an adult.  I think you may be assuming a lot of things.  We don't really know what her mother said to discourage her daughter although I think it would be better to presume that she did it from love rather than anything bad.  

When you say she wasn't in peril, you are seeing this through your own view of the world.  That's fine, we all do this but her view may be very different than yours.  I know that my mother would think I was in peril not from a physical viewpoint but from a religious one if I was considering marriage to someone outside the Faith.  I'm pretty sure she would let me know her opinion and rather than seeing it as manipulation, I would appreciate her counsel.  Hey my family talked to me about my trips to Colombia.  They were concerned about my physical well being and while it may have been a bit annoying in the moment I understood that it came from love and nothing sinnister.  If you want to think that her mother acted terribly and manipulative fine but I'm not at all convinced of it.  

When children grow up and become adults, I agree parents need to back off a bit.  But even in backing off I think a parent can give an opinion or counsel.   My parents do it and while I don't always agree with their opinion I appreciate the fact they care enough to give it.

El Diablo

[Tai]

... in response to Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by El Diablo on Feb 20, 2002

El D,

Come on, give me a little credit over here...

I am well aware of the differences that may exist between how one addresses and interacts with a 17 year old, and an adult of say 27(10 years later).

However, a 17 year old is also one year away from being able to vote, enter the military, and consideration as an adult in the eyes of the law.

As far as your thought that I "may be assuming a lot of things"....All my points were based on and around the information given in MarkInTX's limited post. They are not meant to be taken as a strict analysis of his particular case, but that case does raise some interesting questions.

-And what is anyones response to anyone else's post here anyway, but an opinion based on the information given.

As far as whether someone places themself in religious peril by the mere act of being in a serious relationship or marriage to someone not of their exact faith or perceived level of faith(praticing versus not, etc.), I don't follow that argument at this point. -But, again to each his/her own.

I didn't say that the girl's mother was sinister. I said she engineered/manipulated the outcome to suit her, as a result of her "individual" religious feelings, versus give an opinion/counsel and then leaving it.

As far as what your family did with you regarding Colombia...

The fact that they expressed their opinions is understandable if not expected. However, unless they did things to "interfere" with your intentions to go there, then we are not talking about the same issue.

I'm paraphrasing here but, you mentioned in an earlier post that most people would not understand what it means to be a "practicing" Catholic.

To that I'll just say this...my family's religious "legacy" has given me interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will never have.

-Tai

ps - You know what they say about opinions...

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re:  Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 20, 2002

Hi Tai,

Tai Writes;

Come on, give me a little credit over here...  I am well aware of the differences that may exist between how one addresses and interacts with a 17 year old, and an adult of say 27(10 years later).

Diablo responds;

I was only responding to your statement that "age was NOT a motivating factor in what the mother DID". I don't want to misrepresent you but this statement and your example left me with the impression that you believed AGE was not at all factored into the mother's actions.

In the context of thought alone, I agree the mother would not want her daughter to marry a non-Orthodox man whether the daughter was 17 or 40.  However how the mother RESPONDS to her thought of not wanting this to happen may very well be age dependent. Hence my example of the 17 year old teenager and the 27 year old adult where it is quite normal and customary for a parent to respond or act differently depending upon age.  In essence my point being that AGE could very well be a controlling factor in what she did.   I think this is an importantant distinction and I was trying to offer you alternative ways at looking at the mother's actions.

Tai Writes;

As far as your thought that I "may be assuming a lot of things"....All my points were based on and around the information given in  MarkInTX's limited post. They are not meant to be taken as a strict analysis of his particular case, but that case does raise some interesting questions.

Diablo responds;

OK I understand but my impression rightly or wrongly was that you were assigning bad intentions to the mother's actions while discounting age as a controlling factor in her response.  We can argue about whether the mother's actions were misguided however I did not read from Mark's limited response that the mother was not well intentioned.  From the perspective of her culture and her belief system what the mother did was not particularly unusual.  It might even be expected.  So I think her intentions were consistent with her belief system and in that sense she was well intentioned.

As you suggested,  because a tradition or belief system exists, it does not necessarily make it right but on the other hand it doesn't make it necessarily wrong either.  I suppose it's a function of perspective.  I believe the mother may have been acting in accordance to her beliefs, beliefs you may find antiquated and old fashioned but beliefs the family held to nevertheless.

The whole purpose of my original post to Mark was to point out that actions that may have seemed arbitrary and without reason where actually the product of a well established belief system.  People may not like the belief system but that's really another topic which will never be settled here.

Tai writes;

As far as whether someone places themself in religious peril by the mere act of being in a serious relationship or marriage to someone not  of their exact faith or perceived level of faith(praticing versus not, etc.), I don't follow that argument at this point. -But, again to each  his/her own.

Diablo's response;

I think you may trivializing marriage from an Orthodox perspective when you say the MERE act.  Marriage is looked upon as very serious and an act which is considered Sacred.  Orthodoxy looks at a mixed marriage as a potentially serious peril to family life and Faith.  The dissunity that exists within Christianity is in essence brought into the heart of the home. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children etc. The temptation to religious indifference can easily arise.

Tai writes;

As far as what your family did with you regarding Colombia... The fact that they expressed their opinions is understandable if not expected. However, unless they did things to "interfere" with your intentions to go there, then we are not talking about the same issue.

Diablo's response;

If I was 17 years old and I told my parents I was going to Colombia, I can guarantee you that they they would interfere.  Interference would come initially through persuasion but if that did not work they would most likely forbid me.  They would interfere not because they like to control my life or because they are not well intentioned but because they believe I am in some form of peril.  

If Mark's girlfriend were older and her mother forbidd her from marrying Mark then yes you and I would be in agreement.

Tai writes;

I'm paraphrasing here but, you mentioned in an earlier post that most people would not understand what it means to be a "practicing" Catholic.   To that I'll just say this...my family's religious "legacy" has given me interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will  never have.

Diablo's response;

What I actually said was that some many pople don't understand that being a practicing Catholic is MORE than just attending Mass on Sunday.  It's really a way of life and a culture onto it's own.  

If your family's religious legacy has proven to be a negative experience in your life, I'm truly sorry.  Mine has been very positive and I am thankful for it.

Take care, El Diablo

P.S.  Feel free to respond to my post but after that why don't we continue our discussion at Pete's next party.  I'm getting behind on my work with all my posting this past week. (GRIN)

[Tai]

... in response to Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by El Diablo on Feb 22, 2002

Okay El D,

This is my last installment on this thread. Overall, I think that we at least see where each other is coming from.

That being said, I have just a few corrections and comments...

I didn't say that age was not "a" motivating factor. I said age was not THE motivating factor, because the mother was not discouraging the daughter from the idea of marriage as a result of her age, but from marriage to a non-Orthodox man. -She in fact steered her daughter towards others that were more suitable in her eyes. If age was THE factor then she would have discouraged her from marriage at her age, regardless.

About my statement concerning "mere act"...

I said "being in a serious relationship or marriage". In this particular case, the issue started because the daughter had been DATING for a while(for the sake of argument, long enough to be considered serious) and the mother developed fears that it "might" lead to marriage. I may be "trivializing marriage from an Othodox perspective"? By pointing out a flaw in the perspective? -I think not.

If the Orthodox perspective is such that the possibility of marriage to a non-Orthodox poses a "potentially serious peril to family life and Faith."....why did the mother allow the dating to go on for so long? Is 1 date allowed in this perspective? 4 dates? 10??? -If it's not allowed in the end, then it should be that way from the beginning.  That type of perspective sounds like the equivalent of a man telling his son that he can sleep with as many "other" women as he wants, but when it's time to marry, he must find one within his "own" group.

Also, you say "Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children etc."  -In application to the particular couple...what "tension"? The daughter was alright with her mixed faith relationship already. Her religious mentality wasn't preventing her from dating a non-Orthodox guy. The only tension involved was the mother's personal tension about it.

-In a general sense, I agree that religious differences "can" become a problem...but that is a possibility not an inevitability.

As far as my family's religious legacy giving me "interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will never have"...

Where in my post did I say that the legacy has proven to be a negative experience in my life?

WOW, El D. That is a MAJOR assumption, don't you think? Sounds a little bit like a personal "jab"...from the devils advocate no less. -Ouch.

-Tai

ps - "Religion can be a touchy subject, especially when challenges to a belief system are involved". -This was the thought that continually ran through my head while posting to this thread...I should've listened to it.

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re:  Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 22, 2002

Hi Tai,

It was an assumption and my apologies if it was not accurate.  I was sort of reading between the lines and thought that your comment was your way of saying that the religion you were brought up in was something you were glad to be rid of.  I didn't mean for it to be a jab although I could see how you might see it that way.

Regarding a debate about religion or belief systems,  I'm generally not offended by these discussions and in our discussion I think we've both acted  fine.

Just a couple of quick comments, you may have missed my point about age.  I agree that the reason or THE motivation for what she did was that Mark was not Orthodox.  But my point is that age was likely a CONTROLLING factor in how she responded.  If she were 27, I believe the mother would have responded differently.  She would have probably spoken to her but I would be very surprised if she would have forbidden her or paraded her around the seminary.  (-:

If the mother had blessed the union from the beginning but then later changed her mind,  I agree that would be an injustice.  If you read my first post, I came to more or less the same conclusion as you.  As Mark has given us more information, I was under the impression the mother was against it from the get-go and had actually forbid the relationship in the beginning.

Regarding tension, we're basicly talking about two teenagers in love and as they mature I suspect tension could easily arise from their differences in Faith.  I think a Protestant would have a lot of problems with particular Orthodox/Catholic practices regarding family planning among other things.  I think these things are not insurmountable however I think they are very serious.  The standard for 'peril' is not necessarily inevitability it could be something less and in the realm of possibility.

OK back to work for me....

El Diablo

[El Diablo]

... in response to Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by El Diablo on Feb 22, 2002

I wasn't trying to get the last word in.  Just had a little break in work flow.  So by all means feel free to respond and if I have time all do the same.  It does appear however that were close to taking this as far as it can go.  One thing I do want to say however is that for me it doesn't particularly matter that the mother has a similar Faith as I.  I would like to think that I would more or less hold to a similar principle regardless of the Faith in question...

El Diablo

[Tai]

... in response to Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by El Diablo on Feb 22, 2002

El D,

Yeah, I think that we've pretty much wrung this one out. It has been a stimulating exchange though, and I do appreciate your perspectives, as they are characteristically well thought out.

So, until next time....

Take care.

Tai

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re:  Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 20, 2002

If I may interject a couple of things here...

First off, I am sure that Tanya's mother would tell you that what she did, she did in the name of Love.

Forgive me if I disagree, however :-)

What I didn't say in my short syopsis was that Tanya's mother's first move was quite different.

She simply forbade us to see each other. Period. No calls, no dates, no nothing. One day, she announced we could no longer date.

What happened?

Come on! We were teenagers in love...what do you think happened.

We saw each other ever chance we could get... and everyone was helping us... who wouldn't help the poor star-crossed romeo and juliet?

It was after she discovered (after a year of this) that we were still very much seeing each other that she changed tactics, and permitted us to date. Then she went with the seminary tactic. That worked much better.

In the end, if she hadn't intervened, I think Tanya and I may have broken up anyway... Tanya very much craved her mother's approval... so who knows?

BTW... the rest of the story...

Last I heard, Tanya was married to a fireman, and had two kids. Her husband was well on the way to being an alcoholic (as he father was) and cheated on her fairly openly. Tanya had gained about 40 pounds, and didn't look exactly happy.

But... you know what? Her husband was Russian Orthodox... so I guess all is well that ends well, eh?

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re: Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 20, 2002

In each of our lives we hold to a certain hierarchy of truths.  For me, my religion is number one but for others it may be something entirely else.  I think when we look to see if we are compatible with others for marriage we look to this list.  Some people may ignore the list but they may be doing so at their own peril.

In your example, if a lady excluded me from consideration because high on her list was that she preferred a male who came out of the same latino culture than I would accept it and let things be.  She might believe that this life experience within the community brought forth qualities that she desired.  This is fine for me but you must also remember that for a believing Catholic, Faith would always come before this aspect of culture.   However I don't see any thing morally wrong with making this kind of choice.

Now lets take it a little further however.  Lets say I'm a latino in Colombia, I possess all the qualities that are on her list but her mother says no you shouldn't marry El D because he's purple.  Now in this case I'd have a problem with the mother's interference for obvious reasons.

El Diablo

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Hey El Diablo...a question or two, posted by Tai on Feb 20, 2002

I will post my vote that if the mother hadn't intervened, Tanya and I would have gotten married. I even had the ring, and we had discussed it.

To be honest, I've never thanked the lady, but I should have... because the truth is that she saved us from an unhappy marriage. We were really more different than we would have admitted.

But you raise some good questions... because things are different with a grown man...

[Slowandtru]

... in response to Attitude, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 18, 2002

I couldn't agree with you more, Mark. The same situation exists here in Florida. Since we don't share a border our 'Latin' population is a pretty broad representation. Cubans have almost taken over the Eastern coast of South Florida, but here on the Southwest coast there are no really dominant Spanish speaking groups to permit non-assimilation like the Miami Dade area. Even in the seventies one could go almost all day near Miami without finding a single human who could speak anything more than really basic English if any at all. The concentrated Cuban community fostered that and still does, but that is because so many feel that they are 'Cubans in exile' and don't really want to give up hope for a return or lose their heritage. At least that is the rationale.
In the end it all comes down to purpose as you so rightly put it. A LW who follows her mate here is permanently giving up her old life to a large degree and interested in building a new one in her husband's culture and country. That can only mean assimilation if she is serious.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Attitude, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 18, 2002

Mark:
You're right. I run a company in Southern California with nearly 50 hispanic employees, nearly all are Mexican immigrants, though I've also had Uruguyans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans, and Salvadorians. In the five years I've been the boss here, I've had nearly 200 employees come and go. I can count the number who could have a a casual conversation in English with the fingers of one hand. I've had people who have lived in the US for 20 years who can't speak any English at all. My secretary's aunt is a perfect example, She's a college graduate and has teenage children who were born right here in California, but she can't have any kind of casual exchange in English. You think it's bad in Texas, the Viet Namese at the Santa Ana swap meet even speak Spanish. We have three on-air TV stations in Spanish and a half a dozen more on cable. There are dozens of radio stations, everyone in my bank and the local post office has to speak Spanish (Even the Chinese employees.) I'm not complaining, just agreeing with you that there is a HUGE subculture in the southwestern states, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who have no interest whatsoever in assimilating into the American culture.

-- Jeff S.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Attitude, posted by Jeff S on Feb 18, 2002

Those are some interesting first hand accounts. The fact is we Americans are unique amongst first world societies in that we can speak and understand only one language. Every European I've ever met speaks at least two and usually more like four or five languages. The Canadians have dealt some time now with the necessity of being bi-lingual. That's why you see instructions in French as well as Spanish on the products you buy at Wallmart. The big wide world is changing even here in the good 'ol U S of A. This will not be a mono-lingual society much longer. It has always amazed me for example that the majority of the white population of Tucson can live there oblivious to the Spanish language when most of the street names and all the landmarks are in that language. I wonder how long it will be before Spanish becomes a required subject in high school like English is in Colombia. My guess is not long.

[Bueller]

... in response to Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Cali vet on Feb 18, 2002

Yes, many €uropeans are multilingual, but it´s of necessity because of the relatively large population and small size of Europe. Many Germans speak English, for example, because of its status as the language of business, but they don´t go learning Greek or Slavic languages for the sake of being more cultured than we hayseeds.

[yc]

... in response to Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Cali vet on Feb 18, 2002

Cali Vet,

From what I have seen and heard, the change has already begun.  Right here in Charlotte last year, there was an article in the local paper about the weight the hispanic vote is having in the polls.  According to that article they predict that in the next few years the hispanics vote is going to carry more weight in the city than any other minority group.  Guess what... politicians are going to do whatever they can to get those votes.  There is already one school I can recall where the curriculum is taught both in english and spanish.  As time passes the sub-culture is going to become more and more main-stream culture.  So I believe you are right on the money.

yc