Trip Report 2

[LP]

... in response to Re: We could go around and around, posted by Haroshij on Nov 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There is no doubt in my mind what Bobby and you both say is true, it all depends on where you're coming from.

It's a fact there are men who are threatened by successful women and who'll have nothing to do with them. In my experience MOB seems to have a larger share of these types than the general population at large.  After all, it's what drove many to it in the first place. Thats a shame because I know some very successful women who appear to make great mates, one I know for sure is great at it. And it's odd that every MOB guy wants his wife to be successful after she arrives...but many want it only under his "supervision", as it were.

And there is no doubt in my mind that improving the ecomonic quality of their life is a primary concern of these women. So what? Is that wrong? Everyone wants a better life. Then again, why would anyone assume outright that just because a woman is successful she won't be a good mate? That she would be high maintenance?

Or conversly, that she is playing the guy only for what he can provide her? My experience is success for a woman leads to better relations because it gives them a greater sense of self worth, separate from what the relationship provides them. There are *three* entities in any relationship: You, me, and us. My observations have been that failure to consider any one of these entities (or weight them improperly) by any of the parties involved is a leading cause of failure. And the more successful a woman is the better the bugaboo (money) of many relationships is held at bay.

There are all kinds out there and my opinion (based on talking to many of these women as longtime friends) is that most CIS women are more bent to the economic side than anything else. That's what they tell me when they find out my ball is not in play. That doesn't mean they don't hope for happiness with a man. On the contrary...they do. And just as Tim points out, it's in their nature to seek a good provider. But it's also in their nature to want love and to love in return. Hell, forget the gender...thats simply human nature. A woman may find success easy, some even strive for it because they can't find emotional happiness, but that doesn't mean it's everything to them any more than it's everything to a man. (Well, non MOB men)

The point is that at times this is a strange business filled with strange people, people with all sorts of motivations. Personally, I lean towards the economic benefits on the women's side and the loneliness aspect of it on the men's side as the driving force. CIS women get a more secure life and love...to them it's *the* definition of a "better" life, based on what they're living now. Most MOB men are focused more on the compansionship aspect because that's what they're lacking. It's what each has to offer the other that matters, except the women get to have their cake and eat it too. But simply because a woman is successful doesn't mean she won't chuck it all for her man, history is rife with such examples.

You *could* go round and round forever...because you're both right. The only wild card in your equation seems to be the undercurrent of something else I'm reading into your comments. Something thats based on geography and culture more than anything else. Maybe even some politics thrown in for good measure. I certainly understand it but if true, you should leave it out. And if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

[LP]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...thanks to all.

Haroshij, I fully understand how others see America at times and the sad fact is what you say has a ring of truth to it. All I can say is we have a right to be proud but often fail to express it in the correct way. We're  not one people, one culture, and that often manifests itself as diverse and what to others may seem as strange thinking. And I too am distressed at how the enormous resiviour of goodwill felt by the world after 9-11 has been squandered. How things have changed, truly a lost oppurtunity of staggering proportions.

However many of us do, by profession, business, or even something like this pursuit, routinely get out into the world and learn there is more to it than the Stars and Stripes and apple pie. Like most, I've always felt the travel aspect of MOB involvement alone is worth it's weight in gold. It can (or should) change a man's perspective in many ways.

I'll admit things are looking grim these days and as a nation we're struggling to do the best we can with the hand we've been dealt. We've been stung, badly, and we're only doing what many feel will turn out to be right in the future. History will reveal whether thats true but until then all any of us can do is maintain focus on our own lives and hope for the best. After all, history has had far darker days and yet the world has survived. It was grinding along before any of us were here and will continue to do so long after we're gone.

I'll also admit I personally feel America is sometimes it's own worst enemy and we create many of our own problems. Frankly, I think if you  keep poking the hive you shouldn't be surprised to get stung. And poke we have, in the form of our special interest based foreign policy. Or sometimes just plain stupidity. A look at what we did in Afghanistan after we helped out against the Soviets is a good example. Osama got real bent about that and it all went downhill from there. We won't even get into Israel. Not to mention lots of these guys were "pals" when it served our interests. Noriega, Kadafi, even Saddam...the list goes on. If Americans are ignorant about anything, it's the true depth of how underhanded their elected officals (past and present) operate at times.

Also, being the Top Dog has it's downside in that there will always be others in the pack who are discontented and frustrated in their inability to right perceived (or real) wrongs. It's very difficult to please everyone in a democracy, especially when that democracy is composed of so many different cultures, beliefs, and values. Now imagine trying to please every culture in the world. Let's face it, it ain't gonna happen. But I assure you, many Americans are painfully aware of how the world views us and hope they understand we're not as single minded or simplistic as we appear. We also hope they keep in mind we're no different than them in that we have the same hopes, dreams, ect.

Lastly, I gently remind you of something you already know: Often it's simply a case of people good, government bad. Since the former USSR was such a prime example, those who now seek happiness there should be more cognizant of this truth than most. I personally try to keep the two separated. I realize it's often not easy...but it needs to be done.

[Haroshij]

... in response to Shucks...., posted by LP on Nov 25, 2003

LP,
Thank you for a good post. I understand you very well and I agree with you. In my own country I'm always a defender of America. Our massmedia now has a tendency to underline what is weird in America, and it's sad, but your president speaks a language that is hardly understood on this side of the Atlantic.

Haroshij

[Bobby Orr]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

I appreciate your post - kinda hits the nail right on the head.

[cherokee]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

oh Sigmund cometh. Very nice LP, I even read the whole thing!

[tim360z]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

1

[JohnL]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

........... LP sometimes you are a wonder, wonder what Ya gonna come up with next! I liked your logic/reasoning. How true. Hey Bro, youve got more than B@..., theres a fair amount of grey matter brewed there as well, I liked those comments, how true of this board.  LOL

Hey, Haroshij .........

*in spite of the fact that both we Europeans and you Americans in a historical perspective have the same cultural background*

....... what about us Aussies down here? Uh? Come on, we taught the Yanks !  :-)

Good luck to all.
John

[Haroshij]

... in response to How True!, posted by JohnL on Nov 25, 2003

Hi JohnL
You descend from the scum of England :-) :-), but have behaved yourself very well. I've just seen a TV program from Australia today. A beautiful country, and I cannot stop  wishing I was there now away from the polar night and the cold.

Haroshij

[Haroshij]

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

LP, a very good post. Due to limitation of my knowledge in English, I couldn't write it like you.

Then to your last passage. Of course I see the world with the glasses my culture and my upbringing have given me. It's strange to me to see how different opinions we can have on many subject in spite of the fact that both we Europeans and you Americans in a historical perspective have the  same cultural background

To us Europeans Americans sometimes appear ignorant about the world around them and arrogant. It is very striking to see how the anti-Americanisme is growing here in Western Europe. I'm quite sure that that will influence on the success of American men as the admiration for the US is being replaced by anti-Americanism also in Russia. I regret that very much. Let me finally express my highest respect for most members of this board.

Haroshij

[cherokee]

... in response to A very good post., posted by Haroshij on Nov 25, 2003

I have read alot about the "Anti-Americanism" in Europe, but its seems to be just on the political and media front. What is it like on the street level? I think we as Americans can say the same about Europeans as well, being arrogant and ignorant. It just depends on your point of view. By the way there is alot of Anti-Frenchism (not sure if that's the correct form:) here in the states...It just seems like its all being induced by the media.
Living in a tourist area I've run into many Europeans whom are courteous and respectable, and I've always been treated well while traveling in Europe.
So, what's the story?
share the love bra

[Haroshij]

... in response to question about antiamericanism, posted by cherokee on Nov 25, 2003

Hi cherokee,

Anti-americanism is stronger on the street level. Our politician try to preserve the good relationship. I find it sad that people so quickly has forgotten the sacrifices America has done for us.

On the other hand. American music, movies and culture is very popular here. Almost everybody speaks English and it's still popular to go to America for studies.

Haroshij

[Streetwise]

... in response to question about antiamericanism, posted by cherokee on Nov 25, 2003

I can give you my persepective as a Brit, but that won't be typical of Europe as a whole. The fact is that UK and US are inextricably linked, both linguistically and since America began as a British colony and with due deference to the multi-cultural status of the US, the founding fathers and constitution have British roots. The subsequent events of history have only reinforced this further.    

Yes, there is some anti-war sentiment in UK (as I am sure there is in US), yes there is some friendly "banter" sometimes, and some aspects of American life seem rather extreme to us, but the underlying feeling of British people is one of closer comradeship with the Americans than might be found in other parts of Europe.

I speak as one who feels that Britain has less to gain and more to lose in Europe than most; we would have been better off to further our excellent trade relations with America and the Commonwealth countries than to compromise these for the sake of Europe.

I work in the leisure airline business, and in the last 4 years,  2 of th 3 largest companies have been swallowed up by German companies, with the movement of operations to Germany and loss of British jobs (although it has to be said that German employment laws offer more protection than British laws). We also lost Rolls Royce and Rover to the Germans. What next?  

It is also a fact that whilst the UK closely observes the requirements of the European Commission, there are other member states who flagrantly contravene EC regulations and constantly get away with it. Even the "Old Europe" countries who still consider themselves to be in the driving seat of Europe have been bending the rules when it suits them, to dig themselves out of dire economical straits. One thing that the political fallout over Iraq has done, is to ring the changes to these countries; nothing gave me more pleasure than to see the failure of Chirac's embarrassing attempt to intimidate smaller countries hoping to join the EU, over their stance on Iraq. Rumsfeldt may not be a dilpomat, but his comments creased me up!  

Of course, this post is sure to attract a flood of responses from Europhiles in the UK and elsewhere. Bring 'em on!

[Haroshij]

... in response to British Perspective, posted by Streetwise on Nov 25, 2003

The strange facts is that also Norway feels closer to Britain and the US than to the rest of Europe. We are making strong efforts to keep  the strong and good connection with the US, but we are so small that not many notice it.

Haroshij

[Streetwise]

... in response to Re: British Perspective, posted by Haroshij on Nov 25, 2003

I noticed it, Haroshij! Norwegians knew what they were doing when they refused to be railroaded into the Euro!

[cherokee]

... in response to Re: Re: British Perspective, posted by Streetwise on Nov 25, 2003

but i think they're quite upset about the steel tariff's imposed by G Dubya