I"m outta here guys!!!

[AJ277]

... in response to Sorry, but Not even close, posted by WmGo on Oct 31, 2003

just playing devils advocate..
but yes the south and midwest is *different*
in terms of general family closeness than the east or west coast.
this is in a country of basically the same language and culture.

hmm even here we have general differencves.

would not be to hard to imagine there would be general differencves in whole countries where the culture is quite different.

China ? India?
central Brazil?
czech rep? gereece?
isreal? Eygypt?

are you infering that these cultural differences do nbot reflect on importance of family and marriage?
and stating that since you have contacts ,your opinion is correct and no general or empirical statements could be made that differ or be accurate?

a forum is full of generalizations??
and as such most readers realize that there are more exceptions than rules?

Ive spent more years living in other countries than the USA , but was born in a small town midwest family that ws very close.Lived many years in the "south"
and yes it is different that the abnormal "rest" of the country that holds most of the american people and the larger  population centers

(whats normal?)

I assure you in general there are certainly places in the world where families are closer , and that marraiges are more important from a social ,economic and individual perspective.

is the FSU one?
i'm not certain,its just my opinion.

i am fairly sure on the social status part.
take a 26 yo woman in kirov rog.
her social status amoung peers after she marries goes up  quite a bit.
take a 26yo woman in santa barbara or ventura.
her social status amounst peers probably lowers or stays equal *unless* she marries very VERY well.

to say there are not fairly major differences is a bit odd-
so i will respectfully agree to disagree.

but i will concede that families may or may not be closer than avergae as our OWN country is pretty difficult to say an average as it varies region to region and city to city

kiev is probably different than sevastopol in this respect

[jrm]

... in response to Re: Sorry, but Not even close, posted by AJ277 on Nov 3, 2003

Its the MONEY that drives the FSU MOB business. We got it and they don't! Pure and simple!!!!!!

[WmGo]

... in response to Re: Sorry, but Not even close, posted by AJ277 on Nov 3, 2003

Hey AJ,

Yeah, you make some good points there, and I agree with
some of them. Especially the Santa Barbara vs. Krivy Rog comparison, LOL! I also agree wholeheartedly that cultural traits affect sociological phenomena including closeness/lack of closeness of families, and as you point out this varies quite a bit in the USA. I just think that things have changed so much is a short time in FSU that it has put a tremendous strain on families there. The strain has had more of a negative effect then a positive one in my observation and experiences there. However, I will certainly agree that if you find a FSU woman that really does have the "old traditional values" (a minority of FSUW IMO) you would have found a gem for sure. Looks like you have been really blessed! Yeah, no doubt about it, there are more of such ladies in the "villages" than the big cities.

Best wishes.

WmGO

[AJ277]

... in response to Re:close, posted by WmGo on Nov 3, 2003

WmGo-
Trust me we agree more than disagree!!
my devils advocate was half serious, half just messing with you...lol
I also think things are changing fast there and becoming more western by the day.Heck i've watched it happen!
Also many myths are more than  a bit expanded on by the marraige agencies to "sell " a guy getting his arse off the couch and on a plane! lol

As far as my own case,
strangly I wasnt looking for a traditional woman,
which made my search quite a bit easier as you can imagine LOL!!!!

There are just soo many variables in this..
for me i dont have a thing agaist women here there or anywhere.AW have treated me quite well.I travel a LOT, and have been lucky to have worked for several years in a few places that have loads of beautiful single women..like Sao Paulo Brazil for a coupla years.
Been in central or east euroland about 4 years of my life and a few in Isreal and egypt ( and some other less desirable places)

Although i met some very traditional ladies in ukraine,
( which i agree they were in the minority )
My wife is far from traditional, and is very westernized.
A few guys would run! LOL
She does have some unique outlooks that are certainly Russki,but in general day to day much like any AW.
So i could have found her  at my nieghbors BBQ, but i dint.. just fate.
It is her personality that matches mine, I would have fallen for her here, or anywhere,, she just happens to be from Ukraine *shrugs*

My advice is probably useless to most guys, since my outlook is probably a bit twisted

[jrm]

... in response to Sorry, but Not even close, posted by WmGo on Oct 31, 2003

Europe(fsu) more than you...but so what!
Every woman I have dated in Russia or Ukraine, had both parents( unless one or both had died)
Closer, during the communist years and more so now, because times are tough, families have relied and depended on each other for everything from child care, food, money, sharing the small flats, etc. In America, because of the mobility of our society our families don't even share the same state anymore, much less the day to day struggle of life.

Come on now, your sidenote statistic of a 70% divorce rate is unreliable at best. Where in the FSU can you find any reliable statistics!!!!And remember there are 3 kinds of lies:
1,lies,
2.damned lies and
3.statistics!

[WmGo]

... in response to I am born and raised in the south, proba..., posted by jrm on Oct 31, 2003

jrm,

Many governmental agencies including international ones keep such statistics. Because marriages and divorces are registered with governmental authorities it is very easy to compile accurate statistics as to divorce rates. So the old Benjamin Disraeli adage does not apply Research the matter, you will find these numbers in numerous places. With the advent of the internet this type of research is very easy.

It is nice to know, but irrelevant to statistical reality, that the ladies you dated in FSU all had intact families. If you opened your eyes while there you would have seen that that is not the cultural norm there. This is the number one reason that FSU ladies make themselves available to Western men. I thought everyone involved in MOB knew this. If all FSU men were ambitious, responsible, hard working, faithful and sober there would be no FSU MOB industry. None at all.

Sorry, but the simple fact of the matter is that your proposition is, by its very nature, not possible to empirical conclusions. It is purely subjective and situational. Moreover, mere proximity or the lack thereof is irrelevant to the question of familial "closeness", but your point on this is well taken. I am rather expert in Russia and Ukraine (life time study) and can say with all certainty that families are not closer to each other there than here. I have literally hundreds of contacts there and regularly discuss these matters with my friends there and the bottom line is that, just like in America, some families are "close" and some are not.

Contrary to your *assumption* (you know what they say about it , I have traveled extensively throughout the FSU and Europe. I have traveled to and have friends in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kolomna, Kiev, Lviv,Donetsk,Lugansk, Yenakeivo, Rybinsk,Stahkanov, Starabilsk, Dnepropetovsk, Odessa, Nicolaev, and Kherson.

There are many myths that are a part of the MOB business and the "families are closer there" is one of them. It is just one of the sales pitches. That is all it is. If it helps to rationalize it as true because God blessed you with a wonderful Ukrainian woman, then I am all for it!!!

Best wishes to you and your bride.

WmGO

[jrm]

... in response to Re: I am born and raised in the south , posted by WmGo on Nov 1, 2003

friends want,ie, better health care, a car, ability to travel, more free time. But I don't claim to know it all, only what I am told by my friends from Vilnius,to Yoshkar-ola, from Yalta to Kyiv, and many places in between.

[WmGo]

... in response to I have been told its a "better life..., posted by jrm on Nov 2, 2003

Yes, its true. My point was only that absence of the "better life" in FSU is primarily related to
the FSUM situation, i.e., I think that most FSUW
would not leave their countries for strictly economic
reasons if they could find a local man who was a true
source of love, stability, provision etc.

Beware the ones for whom it is strictly economics!!!

[jrm]

... in response to Re: "better life" , posted by WmGo on Nov 3, 2003

it is economics (money) that make most of us more attractive, desireable to any woman, from anywhere. Whether the currency is goats,$,or grivna, whoever has the most, is the most desireable to the opposite sex.

[AJ277]

... in response to Well,, posted by jrm on Nov 3, 2003

jrm- a bit cynical? LOL
but I do agree - and it is probably true in human nature.

My wife had much better wealthier offers though...in this country and a few others.
Fairly handsome guys in a decent age range and very well off.this i know for a fact.
and surprisingly she choose me!! =O a goofball, not all that smart or handsome , with a risky job that pays substantailly different amounts annually depending on talent, luck, and simple fate.So no big seciurity,  and no *real* wealth.

so i dont think its always
"just about the benjamins!"

[jrm]

... in response to Re: Well,, posted by AJ277 on Nov 3, 2003

nt

[AJ277]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I"m outta here , posted by WmGo on Oct 29, 2003

Wmgo said--
Just a couple of comments.

First, a wedding in FSU is *not* any bigger for
the woman there than it is in the states. The opposite is probably true in light of the common extravegance involved in the typical American wedding. It is just a matter upon which empirical statements cannot be made.

Second, it is a *myth* that families are closer
in the FSU than in America. A popular myth in
MOB circles, but a myth nonetheless.

Third, I agree with, respect and admire your reasons
for having your marriage ceremony there.

Good luck.
_____________________________________-
Thanks!!

I agree and disagree both with your 2 points :::shrugs:::
and I am answering not to really joust with your opinion, but to elaborate  bit to the board in general on how things are there if you decide to marry there.

I agree they are not bigger in size or extravagance -
i hope that isnt the way it came across.

I meant more in social status and impact on the family and lifestyle as well as importance placed on that day by all involved..

they are generally a big reason for celebration in an otherwise dull and oppresssive economic atmosphere.
te smaller the city or village- the BIGGER deal the wedding day of any of the inhabitants will be!!

So no they are not generally *big"
by western standards.
but everything is relative.
by thier standards they are very big!

want an example?
my mother in law had only eaten at a real resturant one time in her life.
when?
at her wedding when she was 22.
never before and never again until our wedding.
same for babushka.
These are not either poor or wealthy people but a very average ukrainian family in a large city.

many weddings last several days and in the villages they last a week.
There are a million traditions , some families follow them closely, others do not.
Ours was in between.
Some of the customs involve the groom bribing his was thru each of the nieghbors ,fsmily, and friends to reach his bride before the wedding.
also she WILL be stolen during the reception and you may have to sing, answer personal questions
about her or her mother or father,
dance, give chocalates ,money or champaigne to bribe her captors to give her back.
also her SHOE wil ve stolen for the same deal.
other customs include the brides parents trading thier clothes on certain day, and the other inlwas searching thru town for them and throwing them in the river.

all is done in fun and there are dozens of different things,,and everyone is involved.
to me it seems a bigger deal and more involved in general, even if the ceremony and receptions are quite simple
- like the rings-  for lack of funding.

Ours was 3 days.
it was bigger than the average here,and quite beautiful like a fairy tale.
and bigger than average "there" for sure!!
but the key is-
not any bigger than what a person there with some funds would have!!
in fact it was a very small deal by that standard.

it was what most ukranian women hope and dream thier wedding will be like!!!
but reality makes most have a much smaller setting and ceremony.

The other side is social status.
A woman sociakl status is tied very closely in ukraine by whom she marries and IF she is married.
She can have a nice carrer but if shes sinbgle and no children she will not have the same status as a
stay at home wife with a child.
In that culture it is almost a given you will be a wife
someday, everything else is secondary.You cant compare here with there.
 More emphasis is placed on a woman being married and her wedding day than here.
Agreed most are very small ceremonies because they lack  the funds for our extravaganvce, however EVERYONE in the families usually saves for a very long time and spends all the can on a wedding ,in most lives even if its a simple affair it is the biggest day they will ever have.
in fact it is a celebration for all the neighbors as well, and in villages a reason for the whole town to celebrate.

on the families being closer *myth*

while i agere the MOB indusrtry put a heavy emphasis on traditional RW which i find to be funny.. as ive never met a traditionsal RW. LOL

having lived in many many countries my opinion is that  "on average " families are generally closer than in the US.
I think o naverage we have more edistractions, and finances allow families to spread out and become distant easily.
of course manyt families her ae are very close..
and many families theer dont get along ..LOL
but in general -and I hate generalzations-
but if you watch interaction daily ,I think they have more in the FSU. both for econmic social and cultural reasons.

its like watching a greek or italian family.
like in "my big fat greek weedding"

stereotypes generally have a reason for existing.
having spent 2 years in Greece.. i know thier weddings ar e different and thier average family ties are also different -
I dont have any years in Ukraine,, but several in the czech rep..and some in what was yugo-land srbia/croatia...
we are different culturally and it effects family ties and weddings IMHO ::shrugs:::

[WmGo]

... in response to Re: wedding there, posted by AJ277 on Oct 30, 2003

I understand what you mean about the traditional Ukrainian wedding, and agree with you in general except not the most important part of your assertion: social status, impact on family, importance placed on the day, etc. Perhaps where you live or were brought up a wedding is not a big deal, but it is a VERY big deal to most American families and the bride and groom. Yes, I like some of those Ukrainian bridal traditons, they are very cool. Americans have a lot of their own traditions also, and if you consider the affairs involved like the showers, rehersal dinners, receptions, etc it all stretches out over several days in America too.

The main thing to understand is that empirical statements cannot and should not be made about a matter that is not subject to such generalizations.

I cannot agree with your comment about the American family. Maybe it is a regional thing, but in the South from Texas to Virgina and also in the Midwest families are very, very close.

Congratulations on having what sounds like one heck of a beautiful wedding.

[Richard]

... in response to Re: wedding there, posted by AJ277 on Oct 30, 2003

thanks for the desciption of your wedding and some of the traditions.

what's your take on marrying here and then having a second ceremony over there for her family?  (I have some american friends who have lived a distance from their families and had a civil ceremony to make it legal and then a full blown church wedding later for the families.)

[AJ277]

... in response to Re: Re: wedding there, posted by Richard on Oct 30, 2003

Richard-
you bring up one of the things i meant to mention in my other post,but it was already a bit long !! LOL

There are a couple of other options.
have achurch weedding there ( not recognized by the ukrainian gov)
and then file a K1.

or have the wedding here after the K1, then go vacjk there and have a ceremony for heer friends and family.

Again i want to say thst I dont feel there is a right or wrong way- its up tro the individual couple.
some women wont want a big deal made of it..
or maybe its a secong marraige, so many scenerios.

My take is-
that any of the above scenerios should be discussed with her.. it shows your concern for her leaving everything, and for her family friends and life.
but only you will kjnow if it applies in your situation.
and a straight K1 may be the ojnly answer to many situations for lots of reasons.

in our case , it is her first wedding- she has waited a long time in that culture to marry and her family is very traditional in the importance they place on the ceremony and the occassion.It made a huge impression on her and them that i offered to arry there and in fact wanted to.
It made them feel much more comfortable in our relationship
as it shows respect for thier culture and thier daughter.
My wife was also surprised and thrilled that i offered and wanted it there.she had expected K1 ,and for her that takes away a lot of the pomp and ceromny of the brides big day.
She had a lot of fun in the months planning the wedding with friernds and shopping for flowers ,a hall, dress etc.
memories of this leading up to the big day that she will not forget.
her wedding day was like it was meant to be in her mind.
How cool is that for a bride in any country?

and while the other scenerios would have been welcome and fine with her-
they would not have been quite the same- if you follow me?
i wouldnt change a thing.

but i want to stress i dont think it is for evceryone...
The 90 day K1 has big merits for many reasons.
In Franks shoes i might have filed K1 just because of her age and wanting to see how she dealt with life here etc.

Marriage there is just another option and perspective-
and her ties with family, which agreed may be close or not close, will play in roll as well.
each case will be vastly different i am sure.

for guys that have 2 weeks with thier fiancee prior to filing , it isnt a good option IMHO.