trip report part 5

[LP]

... in response to "I think it oughta go" , posted by BURKE89 on Aug 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...how do you figure? I see nothing senile about the conditions set up by this country's founding fathers. If anything, they should be more strickly adhered to. The last thing this country should be is a morass of religious afflictions. Perhaps it's too late for that however. The last thing we need is to duplicate the misery of other places. Jeesh, we already have in some cases...look at the abortion issue. People have been killed over that and I don't mean unborns.

I respect WmGo's intelligence and perspective, he has demonstrated his savvy on many an occasion. That doesn't mean I agree with him. In fact in many respects I find him more blinded by the light than most. Still, he's an interesting measure of a man and I'll not be quick to dismiss him.

And exactly what 'august establishment' are you refering to? Oh, I see...you mean the Land of Fruits and Nuts? Well yeah, they're pretty tolerant around here but ya gotta remember, I'm not from around here.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Basic premise?, posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

Bueno, on your civility, sir.

Point is: I can't see, with your 'cultural angles,' how you can find the gentleman/judge from West Point' stance so abhorrent.

Why?

Your politics are written upon your sleeve, as mine are; however, you've an animosity against the 'South' that I don't happen to share.

LP, why must 'this granite slab' be placed away from prying eyes?

Is there something disturbing, written upon it, to the average individual in Alabama?

Once again: why must our culture be neutered?

Could it be the lovely nature of: New Dehli, Mexico City and, now, Jo-berg that you wish to emulate here (stretch, but you should get the gist)?

I'm at a loss in this regar...

PS: Yes, I was referring to N. Cal - where I just picked up my new Dogue de Bordeaux - with my banter.

[LP]

... in response to 'Tis a kind LP respons..., posted by BURKE89 on Aug 28, 2003

...animosity towards the South, on the contrary. I have fond memories as a young military man stationed in the  South, my first real trek outside my home in New England. I have often opined that those folks are a gentle and hospitable lot, if not somewhat rigid in their beliefs. Are you talking about Texans? They ain't Sotherners, they're different...just ask them, they'll even admit it. (I won't even mention the moron at the helm in DC at this moment.)

I see the slab has been moved, as it should have been. I really don't care too much about the entire affair other than the curiosity about human behavior I possess. (After all, it's why I remain amongst you.) I guess I would say that there are many people in this country who do not subscribe to this particular form of worship and they should not have it foisted upon them in a public place. Nor should theirs be foisted upon others.

In addition, I feel the very nature of religious inflexability leads to poor decision making in politics, decisons that affect us all including those who believe in other forms of worship. If the South is allowed to do it then where will it stop? And how do you think they would respond to a large gay community such as we have in Northern Cal?

As I said, the founding father's principles should be more strickly followed, seperation of church and state is the real basic premise.
The country is cut into too many pieces as it is, it can no longer be "One Nation Under God" because it's no longer one nation. The entire concept is bad news in my opinion.

[WmGo]

... in response to Fair nuff..., posted by LP on Aug 22, 2003

LP,

Not sure what you meant by "demographics", but to be sure the demographics of the Deep South is much deeper in terms of spirituality, courage, integrity and conviciton than the rest of the country. Yes, people more and more worship their false idols,particularly money, just like the rest of the country, but most still take the Living Word seriously.

Take a look at: Proverbs 1:7;9:10.

Have you made the Transaction, or are you still resisting? You know, once you make the Final Takefoff it is too late to make the deal. Trust not in riches.

Later

[LP]

... in response to Re: Fair nuff..., posted by WmGo on Aug 23, 2003

...they're more apt to be swayed down younder, to blur the line between reality and beliefs. The clash can make for a lot of difficult to solve problems because of their convictions. Doesn't mean they're right, just means they're immovable...like a big rock. It takes more energy to bang big rocks together and you make a bigger mess than with the little ones. It gets even worse when the rocks are of different types...

No, I've not made the transaction. As you know, my problem lies with organized religion, not God. Aa an invention of man it continues to be the source of misery worldwide, as it has been for thousands of years.
I dunno...until people stop killin each other, unitl they stop making war in the name of religion, I'm gonna have a tough time swallowing that pill.

It's not that I need proof He's there, I see it all around me in the physical world. The way nature interacts, the incredible sophistication of it, this can't be a simple accident. Nor can His sense of humor. I mean come on: He makes us 95% water, makes it the number one thing we can't live without (even for a short time), then covers most of the Earth with water we can't drink? Whats up with that?

He makes us in different colors? Some black and some white? (That alone is great stuff if you think about it.) And what was He thinking when he made some of these animals? Examples of his wackiness are plentiful if you look for them. Nah, He's real alright...I just wish He'd head on down here and smack some folks around, this waitin until they die thing doesn't help the rest of us any.

Btw, I pray all the time. When I bring the power up on every departure I always recite the prayer made famous by Alan Shepard: "Lord, please don't let me screw up."

[BURKE89]

... in response to Thats what I meant...., posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

too!

I must admit: I share your convictions towards the concept of organized religion myself - on many fronts. However, despite all, it is our culture.

Your comments remind me of a recent 'pop' sent to me, from Spain & another from Croatia, on tolerance.

This - spoken from the law-abiding-, if I am the only one exhibiting the trait.

European culture be damned, eh?

I hope G.W.'s 'crew' doesn't F-up the 'new europe' as Truman's lads did the old one.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Thats what I meant...., posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

Sounds like you got religion. LOL. I remember once i was doing NY - London when the plane hit an air pocket and fell a few hundred feet, for a few seconds there wasn't a single atheist on board.

BTW what's this air pocket about. Is this like a vacuum or what?

[LP]

... in response to hey LP........, posted by Cold Warrior on Aug 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

..deleted. Off topic and served it's purpose.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to lol...., posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

Very comprehensive answer. Thank you. Now clear this up for me. Sometimes in flight my eardrums begins to hurt, this is cleared up if I swallow air.Is this due to changes in cabin air pressure?

[LP]

... in response to Thanks a lot......, posted by Cold Warrior on Aug 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

....I don't wanna get too involved, I'm already off topic and I'd have to explain atmospheric pressure and it's origin, cabin pressure and how it's regulated, and some human anatomy. I don't wanna put people to sleep here, I'm sure they would much rather hear my rants on FSU issues Besides, your not jerkin me around are you? You must have learned some of this in school.

Yes, it's due to cabin pressure. Or more correctly, Cold Warrior pressure. When you say your ears "sometimes" hurt, I'm assuming you mean mean during climbs and descents. The ocean of air we live at the bottom of is pressing down on us, gases have mass and are thus subject to the force of gravity. The pressure at sea level is roughly 14.7 pounds per square inch. In other words, a very tall column of air one inch square from sea level to space would weigh about 15 pounds. You're holding off about 20 tons of air pressure as you read this. You aren't crushed because the pressure inside you is equal to the outside. (Unless you had Mexican for dinner)

As we ascend the pressure drops because there is simply less air pushing down. (A stack of bricks would weigh less as you went up the stack) At 18,000 feet the pressure is 7 psi, only one half of what it was at sea level. This is a hostile enviornment for humans. (Btw, the O2 in the air is the same 21% from sea level to space but it's the pressure reduction that keeps you from getting enough.)

To overcome this (as well as the -55 C temps at altitude) we take air off of the engine compressor section (it's called bleed air) and pump it into the cabin. (This air is also very hot from being compressed in the engine, it gets cooled by a heat exchanger before it's piped in.) In effect we blow the plane up like a balloon and heat it at the same time. The air is always exiting out a big valve in the rear of the plane known as the outflow valve. It's never really closed, it modulates to maintain the pressure set by the cabin controller in the cockpit. The typical cabin pressure (or altitude as we call it) is around 8,000 feet. When you're flying at 35,000 feet the cabin pressure is held at what it would be if you were at 8,000 feet. Don't let anyone tell you the air in the cabin is recirculated, it's not (I'm ignoring the air conditioning packs for the moment) but it's very dry from being heated then cooled.

As the plane climbs and descends the outside pressure changes so the cabin controller maintains 8,000 feet. It does this pretty quickly and we can set it to do other things as well. Rememeber, the 8,000 foot pressure is not set on the ground, the plane isn't pressurized before departure. It's done as you climb. The problem is that sometimes *you* can't respond as fast. As you climb or descend the air will enter or leave your body so as to maintian equal pressure inside and out. If the cabin controller is working properly your body will have time to adjust but the controller must still maitain 8,000 feet as the palne quickly climbs. Sometimes it lags slightly behind.

The best path for these pressure changes are through your mouth and ears, through the eustachian tube. The eustachian tube connects the middle ear with the throat. This tube opens with swallowing or coughing to equalize pressure between the middle ear and the ambient pressure that is in your throat. If the air can't get in or out fast enough because you have a blockage or the cabin controller is screwy, you're gonna feel it. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it feels good. (Other paths for equalization are through your butt and it's why the airlines are careful about what food they serve. You should also watch what you eat before a flight or you'll be dealin with that 300 pound chick in the next seat anyway.)

Whenever you swallow or do the so-called Valsalva Maneuver (where you hold your nose closed and try to blow), you're opening the tube and equalizing the pressure. SCUBA divers do the same thing for the same reasons. It's why you should be careful about flying with a head cold, ear infection, or if you're taking antihistamines. And Heaven help you if you get some air trapped under a filling or crown with nowhere to escape, it's real painful. As long you're healthy and as long as the cabin controller keeps the rate of change gentle you should never really have a problem. The pressure will equalize at a rate that you should hardly feel. It helps during the climb or descent to chew gum for example.

The air needs a place to go (in or out) so it can equalize the pressure in your body, thats the bottom line. This means it's very important to always keep your head outta yer ass...it's just another good reason to do so.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to uh well...., posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

Thanks for another comprehensive answer. I was always puzzled about the change in cabin pressure since i had a notion that the plane was pressurized before takeoff and that pressure maintained throughout the flight. Well, i'm glad to hear that cabin air is not recirculated.

[LP]

... in response to Great......., posted by Cold Warrior on Aug 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...oops, I mean you're welcome.

If the air was recirced it would have to have all the C02, dust, ect removed from it. Also, the O2 content would have to be controlled. That would take a supply of oxygen, filters, and other kinds of gear. It would also mean the airframe would have to be completely sealed. Plus we'd have to keep reheating that air somehow.

Besides, if it was sealed and pressurized on the ground then the cabin pressure would increase dangerously as we climbed and the outside pressure got lower. Just like a balllon does as it goes higher in altitude. Ever seen them launch those big weather ballons? Notice how long and limp they are? They grow to a huge size once they reach altitude.

The way it's done solves all these problems and provides an open "hole" at all times to prevent over-pressurization. Thats why the Hollywood version of a bullet hole depressurizing a plane is nonsense, all that would happen is the outflow valve would close a little more. Now a hole as big as a window...that's a different story. (There are  also other reasons why the windows are small in pressurized aircraft.)

You might ask why not simply pressurize the cabin up to 14.7 psi (sea level) pressure so we all feel at home?  Simple: the structure would have to be stronger and that equals the biggest enemy is aircraft design: weight. There is no other engineering discipline that involves trade offs as does aircraft design. More weight means bigger engines which weigh more. It also means you need to carry more fuel for those bigger engines which leads to yet more weight...and maybe a bigger, heavier wing too. Where does it stop?

Also, a circular structure is weaker when loaded from the inside. For example, it takes a lot of force to crush a concrete pipe from the outside pushing in, but much less from the inside pushing out. It's basic engineering. People handle 8000 feet pretty well, some folks live in such altitudes all the time. Babies and drunks aren't fond of it though, try to avoid sitting near them...

So the cabin is maintained at what we set but it's not done by pressurizing it on the ground. It's done by piping bleed air into the cabin after takeoff and letting the outflow valve open or close as it sees fit to maintain the set pressure. So you see, cabin pressure is kept constant not by how much air gets pumped in, but by how much is allowed to leak out at any given time. In the old days when smoking was allowed on flights the outflow valve would get gunked up, I've seen some really nasty ones.

[surfscum]

... in response to uh well...., posted by LP on Aug 23, 2003

n/t

[hockeybrain]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: trip report part 5 - "G..., posted by RickM on Aug 21, 2003

As far as I am concerned this post is right on.  The more you know before you get there the better.  If things are great and continue great when you meet in person, so much the better............then and only after a long contact period and more than one meeting is it the right time to consider marriage.

[johnnydudeman]

... in response to Re: Re: trip report part 5 - "GEEEE..., posted by tbirdjoy on Aug 20, 2003

tbird says many of us who give advice or criticism have not made "the trip" and are somehow therefore unqualified to respond.  Well, I have made "the trip" at least 5 times and in several countries, and I have seen many interesting things and experiences happen.  But I don't always come back and post self-indulgent "trip reports."  Here's an example of an interesting thing among a million interesting things that you will normally not see a trip report about from me.  I was in Paris recently (a four day stop on my way to Moscow), and I was talking to the waiter in my hotel lobby bar who said Robin Williams and "Mrs. Doubtfire" were his favorite in American cinematic comedy.  My date, who I met earlier that day, and I laughed at his selection.  But then later that night we went to a cool and swanky neighborhood restaurant and sat right next to...that's right, you guessed it...Robin Williams!  I told Robin Williams the story of the French waiter and Robin Williams said "hey let me guess...the French waiter LOVED Mrs. Doubtfire...right?" and we all laughed and had a good time.  And then, a few days later, I was actually in a police militsia car in Moscow after my taxi was stopped late Saturday night-early Sunday morning just hours before my Sunday afternoon departure flight, telling the militisa, who was demanding a bribe that I would NOT pay anything (even knowing I had an important jury trial the following Monday morning here in Texas).  The militsia said I could go but my female companion, who they claimed did not have proper documents, would stay with them unless I paid the bribe.  I ended up paying a meager 17 USD and demanded that they take me to my hotel...which was hilarious...they were just like the keystone cops and they got lost on their way to the Marriott Grand Hotel (which is on one of the busiest streets in Moscow!) and went through barricades and through newly paved roadways soaked with oil just to get me and my girl to the hotel.  Oh, and I met LOTS of great other girls and had some fun.  So, there are always good and bad stories on every trip.  But the soap operatic gushings of "her hand brushed against my hand as we strolled down the Volga, and I knew then that she would be mine!" is just too over the top mushy and Harlequin Romance Novel for a bunch of real men to write about and read.  And when a guy DOES give this kind of an account of such a pathetic experience...it invites...no it demands, criticism.  Because every American like him who goes there and acts like a fool ruins it in someway somehow either directly or indirectly for the rest of us when we go.  He spent so many words telling us how his girl's actions showed that she was not interested in him, and yet he continued to pursue her and she made a fool of him and now he is doomed for relationship failure..again.  Through his words, he showed that she openly showed disdain toward him and that she even toyed with him like he was her "B" (female dog).  But he wants to believe a girl like that could fall for a guy like him so much just because he is American that he refuses to accept the facts and looks for reassurance from the "brotherhood of the board".  Well, as we say in Texas...he ain't gittin' any of that it here.    

So let's stop the "group hugs" and call a spade a spade, because actions speak louder than words.  The girl he describes does not like him and he is too blind to accept it, so he asks us for guidance.  The proper advise, which is to accept the fact that she does not like him and he should just salvage what's left of his trip and have some fun in Russia, is not uninvited advice or criticism.  He asked for it, and its just the reality which this guy will eventually have to face one way or another.