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Author Topic: "Marriage Contract"-Out of Curiousity (JohnK)  (Read 5891 times)
Dan
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« on: June 11, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

What are the major constituents of the "marriage contract" you referenced in a thread below?

Why did you opt against it after having considered it?

- Dan

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John K
Guest
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to "Marriage Contract"-Out of Cur..., posted by Dan on Jun 11, 2003

We were wanting to do a prenup before the marriage, but we didn't have the funds.  After marriage, we were still talking about a kind of "marriage contract", basically a prenup after the fact.  It ended up falling to the wayside again, due to not having enough funds to have a lawyer do it up so it would be legally binding.  After a while, we just forgot about it.

I still think that a prenup/marriage contract would be a smart idea for "get married in 90 days" crowd.  If done correctly, it could go a long ways towards relieving anxiety over marrying someone who is often still somewhat of a stranger, even as you walk down the aisle.  Unfortunately, a prenup is too often considered a C.Y.A. tactic, instead of a step for securing your relationship.

I see the "marriage contract"/prenup as a document that gives both parties the comfort and security to enter marriage.  It should be a document that respects both parties, keeps either partner from unjust penalties in the event of an incompatible marriage, and provides a safe "exit" to both parties, if the marriage is dissolved.  If the partners are relieved from the worry about what will happen if the marriage doesn't work out, they can spend more time and effort concentrating on making it work instead.

This could possibly be seen as counterproductive to a marriage (too easy to call it "quits").  I would tend to disagree.  If people aren't mature enough to hang in there and work out their differences, then the marriage is doomed to fail anyway.

The other part of the marriage contract that I see as important, is a list of unacceptable behaviors in your partner.  While this tends to focus on the negative, it still sets a minimum standard of ethical and respectable behaviour in the relationship.  This is something that needs to be talked over with your prospective mate, as you each will have different standards of what behavior you *won't* tolerate.  

By putting down in writing the issues that are intolerable to each of you, you have established the "bottom end" of where your relationship can be considered successful. There are a couple of key things to remember when doing this.  First, the standards you write down apply to both of you.  Failure to do this will cause your relationship to have double standards, which is destructive.  

Second, the standards should be issues that are governed by self will.  Issues that can be affected by physiological factors (Weight gain, libido, age related issues, childbirth, possibly hygiene) should not be considered.  If they are added in, then it should be written in that it is viable as long as the issue is a matter of self will and not a physiological problem.  Issues that can be impacted by a change in environment (like how much time you spend together), should also not be considered.

What items could be considered?  This is a small list to ponder:  domestic abuse (physical, mental, emotional), infidelity, substance abuse, child abuse, accountability, immorality/unethical behavior, blatant disrespect, repeated inappropriate public behavior (you'll have to define what's "inappropriate" for that one to work), criminal behavior (felony or serious misdemeanor), dishonesty that is harmful/hurtful, unwillingness of partner to work to improve the marriage (that one's a possible powder keg, open to *wide* interpretation), extreme laziness, extreme sloth, etc.

Once you and your partner decide on what behaviors will not be tolerated in each other, you have to decide what penalties will be assigned to each violation.  Penalties could be monetary in value (a bigger % of the divorce assets) or nonmonetary (reducing or eliminating child visitation rights in the case of child abuse).  It will be up to the both of you to agree on what's fair for each violation and to write it down.  

Doing this has a twofold effect.  First, the deterrence effect of penalties will hopefully keep a partner within a minimum standard of behavior.  Second, the process also provides each partner a greater understanding of what's important to the other.  By seeing how certain negative issues affect your partner, you can get a glimpse of how important the opposite behavior may be to them.  In effect, looking at the negative can reinforce the positive.

I think the last issue regarding a prenup/marriage contract is that it is easily read and understood.  Avoid legalese, and use your names instead of "party of the first/second part".  Remember, this is *your* contract, not the lawyer's.  If financial asset disbursement is discussed, try to keep as much of it in plain English as you can.  Explain how vestment works, as opposed to writing down a formula.  State up front what assets are set aside for other people and are not available for a divorce settlement.  Be simple, be clear, and make sure that it cannot be misinterpreted.  Again, make your lawyer work for you on this one.

As you can begin to guess, a good marriage contract isn't likely going to happen after a few hours of talking.  It will take you both quite a while to write out your issues, negotiate and accept each other's conditions, and ultimately commit to something that should shape your relationship for the better.  

Interestingly enough, the framework of this document is what most successful marriages do, whether they have the paper or not.  The marriage contract is simply an accelerated and more legally accountable way of making it happen.  If you're in the "90 day crunch", the marriage contract can be indispensible for alleviating anxiety, and allowing the two of you to better plan for your future.

I hope this answered your question.  My head's starting to hurt...  :-)

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Griffin redux
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to We never had the money., posted by John K on Jun 11, 2003

You can put anything on paper that you want, but as far as I know, an agreement contrary to law is not enforceable.

A simple letter agreement outlining who would pay for return airline tickets or the like will preclude problems of selective memory and add to the comfort level of both parties, (that probably already exists in the form of emails back and forth) but you can state all you want about what % she gets if she is doesn't flirt with other guys and what lesser % she gets if she does and it won't hold up.  State law will prevail.

I think a written "understanding" is probably a good idea but couching it as an enforceable document for many of the purposes you mention, especially the "penalties", is a waste of time and money.  The detail you advocate getting her to sign on the dotted line about is also destructive to the trust between you.  People instinctively recognize that the degree to which you trust them is an excellent measure of the degree to which they should trust you.

Again, I am not an attorney.  Just my 2 cents.

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John K
Guest
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Whoa!, posted by Griffin redux on Jun 11, 2003

That's why you still have to run it through an attorney.  The attorney should be able to tell you if it's feasible or not.

Still the main point isn't really the penalties, but sitting down to the table and deciding together how to shape your relationship.  Some people may need the penalties as a spur to goad them in the right direction.  Personally, I'd just do it because that's what makes the missus happy.

That, and the safe exit clause is almost a must for the bride, as this marriage is a huge risk for her.  You have to remember that this girl is totally relying on you, whether it works or not.  It's the "not" part that is probably the most frightening...

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tim360z
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to That may be true..., posted by John K on Jun 11, 2003

Alot you had to say on the subject John,  but it is the states current prevailing law which is tantamount.  Also,  hand in hand is the legal interpertation of that law by presiding judges who generally have latitude in applying said law to a particuliar case.  Feasibility is only the lawyers opinion.  Lawyers can be mistaken.  Once the case is marked-up for trial...one lawyer wins and one lawyer looses.  One litigant won and one lost.  The judge applies the law despite either counsels opinion.

I think that unless one has alot of pre-marriage assets it may be best to think more about the nuptuial and less about pre-nuptuial agreements. Aside from,  airline tickets back home in case of divorce supplied by the groom,  I think concentrating on the new cross-cultural marriage is a better plan.

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Alfred
Guest
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Feasible?, posted by tim360z on Jun 12, 2003

While those people who have a lot of assets to protect are the ones who would benefit most from a pre nuptial agreement, the process of *negotiating* a pre nuptial agreement could be beneficial to the relationship if it gets both parties to open up and discuss their concerns.  (I am not talking about a situation where one party draws up and agreement and basically tells the other party to signit while jumping through the legal hoops to make the agreement hold up in court.)
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my2cent
Guest
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Feasible?, posted by tim360z on Jun 12, 2003

I AGREE.....
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