Stranger in a not so strange land

[tbirdjoy]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

I've got to agree with the rest of the comments. It's the most bizarre thing I've ever read and I personally would not tolerate that behavior from my wife, but what the hell to each there own and it sounds like John and Marina are perfect for each other.  If you can sleep soundly at night John without worries then more power to you and I siincerely wish you and Marina the best.

Mark

[exlabman]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

Take it from one who knows first hand . what you are saying sounds good and honorable and right out of the "How to Have A Good Marriage Handbook" but it is just rationalization and don't work. Spending time with old friends and relatives is what the trip is all about. She should have no interest spending "social time" with a stranger for several days. Just my .02

Larry

[John K]

... in response to Souns like the "Open marriage"..., posted by exlabman on Jun 6, 2003

I choose to believe in a person until they prove themselves to be unreliable.  A bad trait, perhaps, but I still choose to believe it.

Whether my "Good Marriage Handbook" theories work out or not, remains to be seen.  But for me to revert to mistrust and domination is not an option.  I do my best to adhere to principles, because I do not feel that any other alternative is truly viable.  I've chosen my path; now I must walk it...

[Griffin redux]

... in response to Perhaps I'm too old fashioned..., posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

you are determined to lay the groundwork such that, should it become necessary, you can wear the horns with pride.

[John K]

... in response to Much ado about nothing..., posted by Griffin redux on Jun 7, 2003

If a marriage isn't done right, it isn't worth doing.  I take no pride in holding to my principles, I do it because it's what I feel I should do.  It's the "do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do" philosophy.

Were my marriage to fail someday, I wouldn't bemoan how I was the tragic hero.  Such pomposity ill suits me, and it would totally trivialize the actual tragedy at hand.  All I am trying to say is that I approach marriage with a certain philosophy, based upon openness, honesty, communication, and trust.  When you fully commit to such a relationship, you are eventually going to run into something that tests your commitment.  Then, you either stick to your principles, or you don't.  It's "put up or shut up" time.

[KenC]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

John,
I have a young sociable wife and a very open mind.  If the male friend was a long time friend, I could accept what you describe.  But to be picked up in a bar (with or without Momma) by a complete stranger is improper at best, immoral at worst.  You cloud your judgement with all your talk about trust and what a compliment it is to your wife because HE PICKED HER.  Get real, your wife just got a new boyfriend on the other side of the world.  You had your doubts about her even coming back, and now this?

"Such a positive experience is certainly going to help her socialize more in the future."  Uh huh, how to attract men at a bar 101.
KenC

[John K]

... in response to Wake up!, posted by KenC on Jun 6, 2003

My wife has never had problems attracting men.  If that was all she wanted, she could have a different man every night.  She doesn't want a boyfriend, or a sponsor for that matter either.  She simply wants to have some fun.  This was simply socializing in a public venue.  Call it "dating" if you want, but it was harmless.  Was it improper?  Perhaps.  Have we talked about it?  Certainly, and at length.  The next time I call, we'll talk about it some more.

Perception is often believed to be the truth, yet perception is simply our own limited view of events.  My coworker and I were walking every afternoon for lunch, and often had talks back in the tech room whenever she went on break.  Did anything happen?  Of course not.  Did my wife know about it?  Yes she did.  Was she concerned?  Yes, but she trusted my judgement.  Yet, to an outside observer, it could easily have been misconstrued as something far different than what was happening.  In the end, my coworker and I decided to change our walking schedules so that we walked at different times, and we stopped socializing on the breaks.  While perception is not the truth, perceptions can become damaging, left unchecked.

I do not blind myself to possibilities, Ken.  But I also do not immediately fly off the handle and make accusations, based on something I perceive to be odd.  I've found over the years that often odd things are usually that, odd.  Looking for conspiracies and deviancies are better left to others who have the imagination and the time to pursue it.

Could my wife be unfaithful?  Certainly.  I could be unfaithful too, and my wife would never know it.  Yet we talk regularly, and are very aware of each other's lives.  My wife could just as easily not said anything about meeting the gentleman.  I could have just as easily said nothing about my coworker.  Yet we both know what happens in each other's lives, and we do not hide from each other.  It still boils down to an issue of trust in the end.  Either you have it or you don't.

My doubts about Marina returning were not based upon our relationship, but on her dislike of life in America.  My wife has had a difficult time adjusting here.  She is not comfortable with all the laws and restrictions we willingly abide under, and disagrees vehemently with all of the costs, fees, licenses, taxes and penalties we are constantly subjected to.  She hates the food, doesn't trust her neighbors (neither do I), and feels her privacy threatened at every turn.  Under such conditions, I too would feel unhappy.  We've already run that thread ragged before, so I won't go into it again...

[KenC]

... in response to Eyes wide open, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

John,
You most certainly have the right to look at this in any way you want.  I truly hope that you are correct in your opinion.  I wanted to share my opinion with you as a voice of reason to give you a different perspective.  When you are in love, your objectivity becomes blurred at best.  When your relationship is uncertain (which your's is, for whatever reason), you WANT to believe the best no matter how far fetched it is.  No amount of rationalization will remove that pit of doubt you feel in your gut.
-
"I do not blind myself to possibilities, Ken. But I also do not immediately fly off the handle and make accusations, based on something I perceive to be odd."  A few conclusions can be made from your statement.  One is that you recognize the possibilities of her unfaithfulness.  In your action or lack of action, you are trading your comfort for her's.  Yet in your explanation of your female co-worker, you stopped your activity because it might be perceived as more than it was.  You had it right there, because there are certain freedoms that you give up once you are married.  "Dating" strange men met in bars should be one of them.  

Another is that her "friendship" as explained is odd.  Sorry, but I don't buy your explanation that odd things are just odd.  I go by the idea that the simplest explanation is usually correct.  FACT: The guy's wife is out of town.  Fact: He was specifically looking for FEMALE companionship while she was gone.  Fact:Your wife (and you) seem flattered that she was "picked" (as in "picked-up?).  Fact: You wife thinks of him as handsome,rich and interesting.  Your wife's explanation that the needed a "social partner" until his wife returned is total bullsh!t.  Why would he need a FEMALE companion if sex didn't enter into the scenario?  Why would he be trolling bars while his wife is gone?  Why wouldn't he just hang with his great friends or go stag?  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually a DUCK!  If your wife wants to be picked up by strange men in bars and develop a relationship with them, she shouldn't be married.
KenC

[John K]

... in response to : Eyes wide shut, posted by KenC on Jun 7, 2003

But I have to view the situation with the knowledge I have, both what is posted and what is not.  To explain how my wife thinks, feels or acts would probably take a large sized volume to get it all down.  All I can say is that I understand her well enough to believe her to be telling the truth.  While many would hasten to mark the incident as a yellow or red "flag", they don't have an understanding of my wife's personality or thinking process.  After 2 1/2 years of marriage, I am the better judge of that.

I do appreciate the opposing view, though, as it allows me to look at it from a different angle.  It does appear pretty damning, looking at it from a different view, and I did talk to my wife about it last night.  As she became aware of how it could be perceived, she became very upset over it.  As I hadn't initially given it much thought, neither had she.  My wife is very sensitive as to how people perceive her, and to see herself in such an unfavorable light was pretty hard on her.

Still, it was something that needed to be addressed, even though it may cause difficulties in other areas down the road.

[SimonSays]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

Personally, I wouldn't want my wife to go off anywhere with a stranger she's just met--especially to his home. Having her mother with her doesn't change my opinion; if the guy turned out to be unstable that would only mean the police would eventually be searching for two people instead of one.  I imagine Ukraine has a different viewpoint about trusting total strangers than we do in America but Marina's decision to go home with this man would be deemed risky at best in this country. When she returns I would point this out to her.  In my opinion, what happened here goes beyond trust and her gradual Americanization.  Simply put, there are better ways for her to spend her time than with an attractive male and his friends while her husband is home in California. Putting oneself in positions of possible temptation with nothing negative happening proves what: that the marriage is bulletproof? More likely that nothing harmful resulted this time.

[tfcrew]

... in response to Re: Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by SimonSays on Jun 6, 2003

I believe you "imagine" wrongly concerning Ukrania "trust and viewpoints".
My wife could be no exception.
A better judge of character than scores I have ever known.

However, doesn't it  all goes back to Eve in Eden? Not a good judge of character was she.  

[John K]

... in response to Re: Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by SimonSays on Jun 6, 2003

She never went to his home.  He gave Marina and her mother a lift back to her mother's place, instead of the two of them having to hire a taxi.  It was a courtesy that is commonly done over there.

What she does with her time over there is up to her, as long as she stays within her marital vows.  She goes to movies, shows, restaurants, bars and discos and I don't object.  The whole point of having a vacation is to relax and have fun.  If I wanted to control my wife's life, I would have never let her go.

What's at issue is control versus trust and responsibility.  I prefer to trust my wife to be responsible than to try and control her.  While I'm not always comfortable with what she does, I'm not from her culture.  My point of reference and experience is different from hers, because the culture in America is different from that in Ukraine.  For me to dictate what she should or should not do in her own country would be folly.

As far as temptation goes, Marina never said that she was tempted.  She was just interested in having someone to do things with for a few days.  Marina's "friends" over there didn't pan out and she was getting tired of sitting at home watching TV day in and day out.  The only thing she remarked as interesting was why he picked her over the younger (and possibly prettier) girls, who were practically falling over themselves to be with him.  To her, that went against a typical Ukrainian man's nature.

My wife is a rather unusual, yet pragmatic person.  She wants to go out, but avoids going out by herself for numerous reasons, among them safety.  She learned long before she met me how to keep herself safe, and knows how to tell if a guy is ok or not.  Even so, my wife is careful to make sure she only meets in public places, she always has a safe exit, she has more than enough money to pay her way, and she lets her mother know when to expect her home.  

This gentleman wasn't looking for a playtoy; he was looking for some social company for a few days and was up front about it.  Had he been less than honest or less than honorable about his intentions, Marina wouldn't have had anything to do with him.  While there is always an element of risk, that same risk is also here in California, every time she opens the door at home to sign for a delivery.  The key is to minimize that risk as much as possible.  My wife is smart enough to do that.

I don't ask for people to understand our relationship.  Our relationship is based upon trust, fidelity, mutual respect, responsibility, honesty, communication and love.  We don't own each other.  We try not to control each other.  While it may seem that we are hedonistic animals, truth be told, we are both very conservative in our opinions and actions.  

While my wife wants to go out and have a good time, she balances that against safety and common sense.  If she doesn't feel safe, she doesn't go, or if she's already there, she pays and leaves.  I trust and respect her judgement, and allow her the freedom to enjoy her vacation.  To do otherwise would be petty and controlling of me.  

[Griffin redux]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

and already you're a native.

[John K]

... in response to Less than two years in California, posted by Griffin redux on Jun 6, 2003

I dislike the California life out here.  Even though I now own a house out here, I'd sell it in a minute if I could find a good job elsewhere.

If you are implying that my wife is promiscuous, then I'm afraid you're off the mark.  As the gentleman's social partner, their relationship was strictly platonic.  She didn't offer and he didn't ask.  He just wanted a pretty girl for company, and he didn't feel threatened from Marina.  The fact that she was among his circle of friends, both male and female seems to indicate it was on the up and up.

Marina isn't interested in physical pleasure outside of marriage, and has enough sense of self and personal pride not to engage in illicit activities.  While she likes to go out and have fun, she is careful enough not to get herself in a dangerous situation.  

I think above all, is the issue of trust.  I trust her, and she trusts me to behave myself while she's gone.  While she likes the bar and disco life over there, she is careful to go only with her mother or with friends.  While men do approach her to dance or buy her drinks, they don't get anything except a dance or a "thank you".

She has also toned down her behavior considerably.  She used to be much more wild, when she was younger.  Before we started corresponding, her mother would often be beside herself wondering where her daughter was.  Her father had disowned her.  By the time, I had arrived for my first visit to Ukraine, her mother and grandmother were ready to welcome me with open arms.  I had "settled Marina down" and put her on the path of responsibility, even before we met.  Even her estranged father has reestablished communications with Marina, after seeing her this year.

Even so, accomodations must be made for youth.  I don't expect Marina to become an "old married woman", and never have.  She is too young, vibrant and strong willed to be contained.  I give Marina her freedom, and I trust her to do the right thing.  She hasn't failed me yet.  Do I sometimes get concerned?  Of course, but either you trust your partner or you don't.  If you don't, then why did you marry them?

It isn't like Marina doesn't have trust issues as well.  There is a woman at work here (I'll call her Kate) who has been more than just friendly with me.  She's young, pretty, and very wealthy.  Needless to say, I'm certainly flattered by her attention.  Marina trusts me not to overstep my vows though, and she knows exactly what transpires between me and Kate each time we talk on the phone.  Still, she hasn't always been comfortable with my friendship with Kate.  Trust isn't about comfort.  Trust is about believing in the other person, and comporting yourself so you don't violate that same trust.

While many believe that love is the bedrock of marriage, I tend to disagree.  Trust, mutual respect, honesty, and communication are the true bedrocks of a good marriage.  Love is (hopefully) the reason why you married.

[Griffin redux]

... in response to Dunno about that., posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

Next time find a partner that doesn't test your trust.