Stranger in a not so strange land

[John K]

Marina was accompanying a gentleman for a few days last week.  They met while she and her mother were at a bar drinking coffee together.  He took them both home and asked my wife to be his social partner for a few days, while he was waiting for his wife to come home from vacation.  Surprisingly, he was on the up and up, and my wife enjoyed a few days of fun with him and his circle of friends.

Of course, my wife was curious as to why he picked her when there were many younger, possibly prettier, and much more compliant women in the bar that night.  A man such as himself (well off and good looking) could easily have had any of them, and in any way he wanted.  He explained that she stood out from the crowd, and that she was different than all the other girls.  Marina had become an enigma to him, and he found her "foreign ways" to be intriguing.

I find it humorous that the shoe is now on the other foot.  As an American, I will always stand out in Ukraine, no matter how hard I try and fit in.  Now Marina is starting to become more of a standout too.  While she was always a standout before because of her youth and beauty, now against the younger girls, she still stands out because of her "foreign ways".  She is an enigma to the Ukrainian male: a Ukrainian girl who isn't Ukrainian.

One good thing from her encounter is that she got a taste of true friendship, versus the "friendships" she's had all her life over there.  Her regular "friends" tend to be manipulative or want to "one better" themselves at her expense.  This gentleman and his circle of friends were truly friendly, and they enjoyed her presence as much as she enjoyed theirs.  She even has the phone number of his friend's girlfriend, and they are to make plans to get together.  Such a positive experience is certainly going to help her socialize more in the future.

Myself, I have mixed feelings regarding the encounter.  There is, of course, a little jealousy that she's out having fun with somebody.  Even though I trust her and her judgement, I still worry over her.  Plus, the fact that she doesn't "fit in", causes me a little concern.  People who don't fit in, tend to become targets of less than desireable people.  Still, I am pleased that it has been such a positive experience for her.  If she has found one good circle of friends, it will be easier for her to do so a second time.  

All in all, it has been a positive experience for her.  But it still has given us both some food for thought.

[DanM]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

I gotta say that I admire your candor and guts in taking the position you have. I would not feel comfortable doing a lot of the things you have done, but that does not mean this is wrong for you. Just try to appreciate that most people are on a different place on this subject.

As far as the culture thing, I am not sure how much that explains it. My wife is from Russia and she would kill me for doing a whole lot less.

Let me give you an example. When my wife and I were corresponding before my first trip to see her, I was good friends with a very cute 19 yo girl while I lived in Miami. We went to the same gym in the mornings and just became friends. There was nothing sexual about it. I was more of her big brother. She was so young and niave even for her age. Also she was from Minneapolis and that is a very different pace from Miami. Anyway, my protective instincts kicked in and I tried to look out for her. I would take her to dinner sometimes and sometimes we would go see a movie. Also we would have long conversations and I would give her advice on a variety of topics. This was all done as friends. I never tried to kiss her and she never tried anything with me. It was totally innocent.

Anyway, I told my wife about her in our letters and she was very quiet about it. I had nothing to hide and I did not know it would bother her. Yeah I know it sounds stupid, but I did not make the connection. Anyway, Ira put a quick stop to the meetings outside of the gym once I made my first visit and she could lay her claim on me. : ) Its not that my wife thinks I am untrustworthy. Its just that my friendship with this 19 yo girl was way past her comfort zone. I did not slow down my friendship with this girl because I was afraid something would happen. I just did it to be considerate of my wife's feelings.

My point is that a situation like yours is way past most people's comfort zone. I hope you can appreciate that fact. Just reread the posts if you don't believe me. If you and your wife can do this without either of you feeling bad, however, then more power to you.

Best of luck.

[John K]

... in response to Re: Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by DanM on Jun 9, 2003

At the very beginning, Marina was extremely jealous.  Now that we've been together a couple of years, she trusts me to behave myself.  I trust her too, though sometimes I make up reasons to be jealous.  It makes her feel good about herself when I get a little jealous and possessive of her.  :-)

[DanM]

... in response to That happened early on, posted by John K on Jun 10, 2003

You are a perceptive guy. I agree that a little jealous display is something akin to a compliment for many women. My wife is the same way too.

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

John,
I am not trying to sound alarmist, but I would be more concerned than you regarding your situation with your wife.  Personally, I feel that a man's wife should not be receptive to the advances of a another man who is a stranger, even if his intentions are innocent enough.  This is out of respect to you and to your marriage with her.  One thing that I have learned about FSU women is that they are VERY sensitive to the appearance of impropriety, and are concerned about the opinions of others and of the image they present.  (I find this to be an attractive cultural trait.)  Most FSU women wouldn't put themselves into a position that would invite gossip such as this situation might.  

My ex always had male "friends" from her homeland and I trusted her in these friendships.  I wanted to be open-minded and not be jealous at the time.  However, now that we are legally separated, she is living with one of her "friends".  While I do not believe that anything was going on during our marriage, it is clear that there was something more than just "friendship" between them.  I now regard this as a red flag that our marriage was going in the wrong direction, along with the fact that my wife was inclined towards extended vacations away from me (3-6 months apart).

One of the great things about foreign-born women is that they still want men to be men, and to be women themselves.  They want us to be strong and decisive, and to compliment them and to make them feel wanted and desired.  John, you refer to your wife as if her youth and beauty were a thing of the past ("there were many younger, possibly prettier. . .women in the bar that night").  According to your profile, she is 22 or 23 years old!  She is undoubtably flattered by the attentions of older, well off gentlemen (after all, she is married to you!) and this is natural.  However, if she is meeting strangers in bars and taking up with them as a "social partner" for a few days & nights, and partying with his friends, this cannot be a positive sign.  And I wonder if HIS wife would be as understanding as you are.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your marriage.  However, I caution you to balance trust with keeping your eyes open.

[John K]

... in response to Re: Strangers and trust, posted by Jersey Mike on Jun 7, 2003

I talked with Marina last night.  Reading and replying to all the comments here had been pretty draining and to a certain extent, I was a little depressed from brooding, by the time I called her.  Marina picked up on it immediately and by the time I finished saying "Hi Baby, how are you doing?", she was wanting to know what was wrong and why was I so depressed.

I simply said that I had been thinking about the earlier time with the gentleman.  "Why?" she asked, puzzled, "You know I wouldn't hurt you."

I explained that I trusted her, but one could possibly see a perception of illicit behaviour.  Marina was confused, but as I reminded her of how my coworker, Kate, and I had changed our walking schedules to walk at separate times and cut down on our talks, it all came together for her.  The light bulb went on and she became upset over what had originally been an innocent thing for her.

She promptly apologized for hurting me this way, and hastened to reassure me that she would never do anything to hurt me.  She also apologized for being unfair to me as well.

Unfair?  I was a bit confused over that one, but Marina had taken the thinking one step further than I had gone.  Kate and I had changed our worktime behaviors, largely due to Marina's concerns over what people might think.  By putting herself in a situation that could be perceived as questionable, she had effectively created a double standard.  She had acted in a manner that was unfair to me and also to the standards of our relationship.

Marina is still strongly sensitive to how people perceive her, and this call was like a bombshell to her.  The call ended up with both of us being depressed, and with her worrying about me and about how she must have presented herself.  

While I feel justified in holding to my principles, the victory is a hollow one.  To cause my wife such angst was not worth validating what I already knew to be true.  I also now have to worry if it will cause Marina to become more antisocial again out of fear of "what people might think."  I've already had enough problems with that over here.  To compound it while she's on vacation means that when she comes home, I will now have bigger socialization hurdles to overcome with her.  Again, I have probably done more damage than good...

[Griffin redux]

... in response to The perception thing., posted by John K on Jun 7, 2003

[Yeahbaby]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

Let me get this straight...  Your girl is picked up by a man in a bar.  The man is married (and she is supposed to be with you).  He finds her "intriguing" and asks her to spend a "few days" with him until his wife returns.  Amazingly, she does.  And you feel this is a good thing?  I'm sorry, I must have missed something but IMO, you are definitely headed for trouble big time.  There were MANY boundaries crossed by both parties in this scenario,  enough so that it should send you running, not walking, back to the drawing board!

Oscar

[John K]

... in response to Well, I thought I had heard everything....., posted by Yeahbaby on Jun 7, 2003

She did not go anywhere with him that wasn't a public venue.  She did not "stay with him" at any time.  She would meet him at a bar or restaurant, usually with his friends and drink, eat, tell jokes, dance and have fun.  When it got late, she went home.

You are invited to join an intriguing person and his/her friends for a few days.  You meet for a few days in a row in public venues with them.  Some are married, some are engaged.  They are courteous and friendly and nobody puts any pressure on you.  While the initial person is married, they are not interested in any physical contact.  They're just lonely and want someone to talk with and not look like the "odd man out" when they're out with their friends.

Hmmm, that sounds pretty damning to me...

[Yeahbaby]

... in response to The way you imply it is incorrect, posted by John K on Jun 7, 2003

Well John, I guess I have to ask, how do you know that is all that happened?  As some others here have noted, most men whose wives are "out of town" and who are picking up strangers in bars have a bit more motivation than what you describe.  I do know that I feel personally that both his and her behavior, even if that was all that was happening, was inappropriate for people who are married.  Call me a cynic.  
I told this story to my wife and asked her opinion.  She said she would never put herself in that situation and felt it was not good at all for a married/engaged woman to do this.  She then asked me a question-  "If you (me) would ever consider doing this, which side of your head would you like me to hit you on with the frying pan?!".  

Best of luck..

[John K]

... in response to Re: The way you imply it is incorrect, posted by Yeahbaby on Jun 8, 2003

Never get on your lady's bad side!  Seriously though, Marina does have some checks and balances over there.  The biggest are her mother and grandmother.  She's staying with them and they are crazy about me.  If she ever even contemplated something less than proper, there'd be H*ll to pay.

In retrospect, Marina nor I contemplated the implications or perceptions generated by her hanging out with this man and his friends.  She even later went out with the girl, her fiancé, and her sister to a bar for drinking and dancing.  After your collective comments to me, and my discussing them with her, we both were troubled by how things had turned out.

I think it was a combination of Marina's naivetée and my inattention to detail, combined with my total trust in her, that caused us both to goof up.  We don't worry about each other, and we trust each other to do the right thing.  It may cause people to look at us in askance sometimes, but the end result is that it works.  That's all that matters to me.

[Travis]

... in response to The way you imply it is incorrect, posted by John K on Jun 7, 2003

If your out with your close friends, why would you ever feel like the odd man out while your wife is away. My friends would never make me feel that way and I wouldn't. So, is this man that insecure with himself that he would feel this way? Probably not, he was secure enough with himself to pick up an attractive woman in a bar.

I don't know your wife and won't judge her in anyway because I don't know her. But the scenario just sounds wrong even if there was no ill intent on her part. Hopefully just bad judgement. The guy? We don't need to discuss him in any way regarding his intentions. There are things you give up when you make the commitment to me married. One is being picked up by a stranger.

[tim360z]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

There are varied opinions to your post.  Personally,  I don't think your wife's episode, as I read it, is so very healthy.  Nor would it be,  if the shoe was on the other foot and you were the said "companion" for a married woman whom you met at a bar.  Questions of fidelity aside...this is not still not a great idea, imho.

It is funny to me because my best friend would have no problem being the guy your wife met.  He is married,  very wealthy and at times craves,  needs female companionship.  No,  not sexual companionship, as he doesn't cheat on his wife.  The story you mention he has done many times and sex was never really his motive.  Yes,  maybe somewhere way in the psyschological background...but it would never come to fruition.  He enjoys the conversation etc....thats it.  Its all part of a little party and thats it and the party is over.

However, as you describe your wife....most guys would have very different intentions.  Your wife could get in a very bad situtation and its just not a great idea.

[John K]

... in response to Re: Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by tim360z on Jun 7, 2003

That was almost verbatim what my wife said last night, when I talked with her more on the subject.  The gentleman in question was looking for someone to talk to and felt the younger "hotties" lacked in the conversation department...

I still believe my wife, and our conversation from last night still indicates that I have been correct so far in my judgement.

[Gordon]

... in response to Stranger in a not so strange land, posted by John K on Jun 6, 2003

I got to hand it to you John K. After reading the first couple of sentences of your post I thought to myself, "this guy has got some serious balls hanging this topic out for all to see". I feel that way still after reading all the reply's. I think you're doing it right. Your wife's a big girl and she made a big commitment by marrying you. A person can't treat their spouse as if they expected them to be unfaithful. You can't keep them under lock and key although one reads many stories about AM doing just that to their R/UW. Trust and honesty and making the right choice is what any relationship is all about. It sounds to me like you did the work and made the right choice in marrying the woman you did. You need to trust the person you're married to until they give you good reason not to. Not doing so makes for a very sick relationship and speaks very lowly of the non-truster's self esteem. If the spouse is an honest person they will be true to their commitment. If they have infidelity in their heart they will fall off the fidelity wagon sooner or later and there isn't anything that you will be able to do about it before the fall. Once the fall has taken place the offended spouse will know about it unless they are brain dead, which seems true of many AM marrying R/UW, or the offending spouse is a psychopath, which many AM, now divorced, would like you to believe. Neither you nor your wife seem to qualify for the categories mentioned above. I think you're doing it right but I don't envy you for all that you're going through. It's obvious that you love her very much and that her dissatisfaction with the USA and her trip home are troubling to you. They would be troubling to any of us but infidelity isn't in her heart or she would have taken the opportunity with this guy and you never would have heard word one about the meeting. The fact that she mentioned it to you at all speaks well of your relationship on both sides. Still, I'd have a little chat about it with her when she gets home..haha. Women like that you're a little jealous. It means you care.  And I think she will go home to you. If your relationship is as good as you write that it is then she knows what she has and what she stands to loose if she stays back in Mother Ukraine. Being in Ukraine again should only reinforce her reasons for wanting to leave in the first place. When she gets back work with her on finding a place to live with fewer laws and restrictions, like Oregon, and find a home with better neighbors. My best wishes go out to both of you!