Great article about boys and men

[Lynn]

... in response to I hear ya...., posted by LP on May 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

I am from the South, born and raised here, 8th generation, and I have to agree with you on many points.
I tried to explain to a friend of mine that the churches here are under just as much control as the Eastern Orthodox church was under communism in the FSU. When you accept gummit benefits, you dance to their music as told, or else. Ended up pissing serveral people off about it. I have found that most poeple are in denial, conditioned to be afraid, especially the truth.

The best answer is:   "Am I therefore made your enemy because
          I tell you the truth?"  Galations 4:16

[LP]

... in response to Re: I hear ya...., posted by Lynn on May 24, 2003

..Thanx Lynn, I was afraid you might not uunderstand. Your's is a voice that instills hope that not everyone south of the Line is clueless.

I'm staying clear of this in the future. In case you don't know, recently implemented law allows a certain branch of the government to destroy the careers of people in my business in the blink of an eye, with no avenue of appeal except back to them. The amazing part is they're not required to tell us why they did it and any "evidence" remains classified, even to us, the accused. No due process at all. Add to that those of us who're now federal law enforcement officers during certain working conditions and you can see why it puts us between a rock and a hard place if we don't tow the line.

[Lynn]

... in response to Yep...., posted by LP on May 24, 2003

No problem LP and thanks. Actually there is quite a movement here of people becoming aware of the terrible mess we are in. There are study groups being set-up from Georgia up thru South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia. They all vary somewhat in focus, but all are studying ways to retain what rights we still have and to try and take back those who have been stolen.

I know what you're talking about. I do not envy you in the position you have been put into. One of those damned if you do and damned if you don't deals. Sounds more like the gestapo is looking over your shoulder.

With the recent blatant disregard of the 1st and 5th ammendments is several totally unpublished events, I am sure none of our rights are safe. Now, if were some worthless bunch of crap the news would be all over it.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' ..., posted by stefang on May 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

This message was deleted

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, ..., posted by LP on May 23, 2003

...just forget the first response I wrote.

Your post was an obvious attempt to "troll" for a fight. When I think about it, I really don't care about your disapproval or disdain for me or anything I have said.

I have better things to do than waste more time with your silliness.

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, ..., posted by LP on May 23, 2003

The only really coherent thing I could take from your post was a disregard for the south. Hey if it makes you happy to judge a lot of people you do not seem to know, then be my guest. Just don't expect us to get too upset if you do not approve of us.

Yes the people should decide when the law of the land changes. A government of the people is an idea I support because I have faith in the people of this country. If you don't then that is your perrogative.

Just as an act of morbid curiosity, could you please tell me why the "backwards" nature of southern people is responsible for Congress giving itself a pay increase?

Sorry little buddy, but your attempt to insult here did not add much to the conversation and really is not worth more of a response.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Usury, is what is killing us..........., posted by DanM on May 21, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

I agree that without investor greed there could be no corporate greed. I have to dissagree on , "Until we decide that return on investment is not our number one goal, nothing will change. For the record, I do not think anything should change." When all you see is corporate management raping and pillaging once viable companies for their own self-centered interest, then closing down what is left-----sooner or later it is going to catch up to the point where all your durable goods and foodstuffs are coming from "other" sources, if a nation cannot fend for it's self then it is at the mercy of it's enemies.

"I don’t equate globalism with communism." Sorry that you don't see the connection. First, the UN's goal of having a one world government is the driving force behind all the free trade agreements that have opened the doors to companies going overseas. Those jobs going overseas has lowered the standard of living for a lot of people here, while raising the standard in other countries. Sure the top executives and some wise investors have made a good lick here and there, but the populus at large has suffered. You can label it anything you want, but the fact is the UN is a communist organization with the intent of making the whole world communist, don't believe me, read the facts form the inception and the failed starts under other titles, heck the secretary general of the UN has almost always been from a declared communist country.

On the subject of usury, I wasn't refering to your average consumer loans.

Usury, now lets define that, modern definition is charging illegally excessive interest. Hmm, as I said before, what backs up this money created out of thin air, I don't believe you addressed that. First of all the Federal Reserve is no more "Federal" than Federal Express, it is a private for profit banking cartel with a bridge to the government. The owners are:
1. Rothchild Banks of London and Berlin
2. Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris
3. Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy
4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam
5. Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
6. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York
7. Goldman Sachs Bank of New York
8. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Controlled By Rockefellers)

From it's creation it took only 20 years to bankrupt this nation and we have never recovered. If they create money something has to back it, that something is your and my willingness to work and pay "taxes" which are in turn used to pay the "principal" and "interest" on the government bonds, etc. that our government produced and gave to the Fed to stand as collateral for the "thin air money" and it's "percieved value", all with our tacit approval. With income taxes alone coming to nearly 1/3 of the middle class income----If that is not usury what is it? And to top it all off we are considered as chattel property used as collateral to back up these and other loans----don't believe it-----try to get a copy of your "original" birth certificate, it's not in the county or state you were born in if that gives you a clue. Even the back of your SS card tells you what they are doing, but most people are ignorant of the facts. I offer this tidbit for your reading pleasure: http://www.celestia.com/SRP/AS95/Html/StateOfNation.html

The fact is, the financial power of the US was built on it's ability to produce, not consume. Just where did you get that it wasn't the work force and the raw material wealth that made this nation what it is?

Sorry, I have lost the link to the article on dollar vs euro valuation in a recent computer meltdown.

"No I do not know anything about the Kennedy $5. Could you please tell me more?" Not many people remember it, it was a United States Note, meant to be debt free money. Here's a link to a photo of one:

http://mccraw.zoovy.com/product/BN_USA_383

"The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans freedom and before I leave office I must inform the Citizen of his plight. PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY"(10 days before he was murdered)

Why don't you know anything about it? Like many other things, you were taught only what the government wants you to know.

Nikolai Lenin once said, "The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debase the currency." With the fiat currency we have today, that is exactly what has happened.

So by your last two paragraphs, I take it that you agree with:  Baron M. A. Rothschild: "Give me control over a nation's currency and I care not who makes it's laws." "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is master of ALL its legislation and commerce."

                And the article that Rothchild's "The London Times" printed in the 1860's:

"If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: Usury, is what is killing us......., posted by Lynn on May 22, 2003

Hey Lynn,

First of all, I am glad that we can agree that corporate greed as an extension of investor greed is not a bad thing and does not need to be changed. That is a really good point we can build on for future discussions.

As for loss of our capacity to create durable goods and foodstuffs, I also agree. This is a bad thing if it gives someone else an undue advantage over us. Fortunately, our agricultural sector is an exporting strength. We produce much more food than we consume and we still have the capacity to produce multiples of what is currently being produced. If anyone uses food supply as political muscle against other countries it is us. Secondly our durable goods production is moving overseas. Its inevitable. Some things will stay here when market driven forces show it to be economically viable, but most will eventually go. As for the production that does move overseas, it can only be leverage if we make poor strategic choices. For example, if all of these jobs went to China, then China would have leverage. If some jobs also go to India, Latin America and Europe, then China does not have real leverage. I think our economy could survive a temporary interruption in the supply of crappy office furniture. Besides, the countries that would try to use such trade as a weapon would hurt themselves more than us. Do you honestly think China will tank its economy be giving up its major source of hard currency? Thats what they would have to do if China wanted to use trade as a weapon against us.

As for my definition of globalism, it was along the lines of free trade and not one global government. They are 2 distinct concepts that do not have to be related. Since our earlier talk was about the economic impact of protectionism, I assumed that would be obvious. Sorry for any confusion I may have created by assuming we were still all on the subject of economics when we were talking about globalism. Please look at my response to Burke for clarification on my views of globalism.

As for corporate management raping and pillaging once viable companies for some profit, I would like to go back to my first point of this post. We both agree that corporate greed as an extension of investor greed is a good thing and does not need to be changed. As a result, we cannot fault corporations for maximizing profits unless we are willing to accept some of the blame for their decisions made on our behalf and according to our own wishes. I think we can all agree that a management team that does not maximize profits will be replaced by investors. We can probably also agree that corporate managers, like everyone else, are interested in self-preservation. For this very reason, a corporation will close any plant if there is a more profitable alternative. In short, the desire to put profitablity first means that profitability is the primary justification for each plant’s existence. For this reason, I would contend that plant closings are a direct result of being a less profitable alternative. In the case of American plants, that is usually because of the labor component of the cost accounting model. In short, these plants were not viable in a

Not sure where you are going with the usury comments. If you are not talking about the average consumer loans or mortgages, then what are you talking about? Since these make up the overwhelming component of loans in this country, what relevance would this other group have to the national economy. Its gotta be relevant somehow if its killing America.

I have to disagree with the point about the Federal Reserve being no more federal than Federal Express. Have you noticed how many times Alan Greenspan goes before Congress? There is a reason for that you know. Also I am pretty sure the president of Federal Express does not need any sanction or support from the President of the United States when he assumes his position.

As for what creates the value behind the US dollar, its simple. Nothing tangible. Only demand supports it and that is a function of confidence in the US economy as a whole. What gives gold value other than a perception if value? The value of gold is no more real than people’s desire to have it. Same  for diamonds, art and other things. Why do you think DeBeers would so tightly control the diamond supply for years? You lessen or remove the demand and you have something with little or no value. The same value vs demand relationship applies for the US dollar. Its one of the many elements Greenspan juggles when he controls money supply.

As for equating taxes with usury, I am sorry but this seems to be a misapplication of terms. Usury applies to interest on a loan. Taxes paid to the government are a different category. To be a loan, there has to be consideration (ie an original amount that was loaned), a stated interest rate and some schedule of repayment. Since none of these things are applicable to the taxes we pay to the government, I think your usury comments about taxes miss the mark.

As for secret loans against modern day slaves (us), I am a little skeptical. Sounds a little like the talk of black government helicopters that make no noise and watch us at night. Sorry but I am not a big conspiracy theory guy. Maybe this would be good for Oliver Stone or something. Yes I am sure there are loans for all sorts of things I do not understand, but I need something a lot harder than a link to a website before I will be convinced of your statements on this subject.

I never said manufacturing did not work 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. I said it does not fit our country today because our labor costs are not competitive in a world where somewhat free trade exists with markets that have significantly lower wages scales. If you read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I said what works 50 years ago is not what works today.

Since the implementation of Lenin’s economic theories (ie the Soviet Union) did not work out too well, I am not sure I would go to him for advice on economic issues. Same for his theories on how to destroy capitalism. Also our currency has a pretty high value relatively speaking. Remember WSBill was the one who wanted to debase our currency in order to help our trade balance. Do you think WSBill is somehow wanting to bring down the US economy (joke)? : )

I look forward to your response.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Usury, is what is killing us..., posted by DanM on May 22, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

" Usury applies to interest on a loan. Taxes paid to the government are a different category. To be a loan, there has to be consideration (ie an original amount that was loaned), a stated interest rate and some schedule of repayment."
What are the bonds etc. that the government puts forth to the Fed? Are they not a contract to pay for a principal (the money the Fed creates) with interest and do they not have a maturity date or payment schedule. The money is loaned into existence, just like when you borrow money at the bank----the bank does not loan you money, it loans you debt. When the IRS collects the taxes, the money is deposited directly into the Federal Reserve. The Fed has loaned us debt, the money that they created out of thin air, just like when you get a morgage.

"As for secret loans against modern day slaves (us), I am a little skeptical."   Ok, just tell me where your original birth certificate is.

And while you are at it, explain this: obtain a fairly newly issued SS card (last 10-15 yrs.), the front side looks like all the others, turn it over, lower right hand quadrant, now take out any piece of fiat money from your wallet---lay it face up and place the inverted SS card on top---notice anything vaguely simular? Hmmm, same style, maybe one or two more characters----what the heck is that all about----------what is that for anyway, never heard of anyone asking for it, why is it there? I am sure you have a good explaination.

"Since the implementation of Lenin’s economic theories (ie the Soviet Union) did not work out too well"
They didn't? Wow, I thought we got plank #2 & #5 of the communist manifesto fulfilled in the thirties, I must have missed something. He was a communist wasn't he? Do a little checking on Col.Edward Mandell House, Woodrow Wilson's chief advisor, you will find that he was a strong advocate of #2 & #5.

Caution someone may offer you a choice between a blue or a red pill.

[John K]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Usury, is what is killin..., posted by Lynn on May 22, 2003

I just gotta be different...  :-)

[DanM]

... in response to Um,  Do you have any in green?, posted by John K on May 23, 2003

The funniest thing I have heard today other than LP's talk about how much he does not like people from the south. : )

[Lynn]

... in response to Um,  Do you have any in green?, posted by John K on May 23, 2003

.

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Usury, is what is killin..., posted by Lynn on May 22, 2003

Although we do not agree on these points, I really like the blue or red pill joke. Nice one. I am also a big Matrix fan.

As for the tangent that says the taxes we pay are under the category of usery because the government issues bonds, I think the ties are a little thin. First of all, the interest rate on these bonds are incredibly low. No where near usery. Secondly, almost every government in the world issues debt. This country starting selling bonds when it was created. Its not some new invention. States, counties and cities issue bonds all the time. Finally, and most importantly, the taxes you pay are not a loan to the government. Just because the government uses some of your taxes paid to pay off very low interest loans does not mean that usery has entered the equation.

As for the stuff about similarities with social security cards and money, I want to know where you are going. I really do not see Alan Grgeenspan as the evil puppetmaster who is pulling the strings of the world. Do you? Who do you see behind this supposedly sinister plan to control our lives?

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Usury, is what is ki..., posted by DanM on May 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

as the "Oracle" would say.

First, the interest is not the primary concern, it's the whole process:

Following is a simplified explanation of the inane method in which currency and credit is currently created in the United States. This system benefits a few elitists at an exorbitant cost to We the People! The average American contributes one third of his hard earned dollars to support this corruption!

Let's say, for example, that to carry out its legitimate functions, the United States needs $300 billion in credit and $100 million in currency :

1. The U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving at the U.S. Treasury is instructed to print $100 million in Federal Reserve Notes, as currency for the privately owned Federal Reserve.

2. The privately owned Federal Reserve System pays the U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving $20.60 per 1000 bills it prints! That is approximately two and a half cents for each bill, regardless of their face denomination, ie. $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100 bill. WHAT A DEAL!!

3. Next, the United States orders the same U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving to print $300 billion, $100 million worth of U.S. Treasury Bonds.

4. The privately owned Federal Reserve then purchases $100 million of U.S. Treasury Bonds (redeemable at full face value plus interest) from the United States. To pay for these, the Fed uses the privately owned Federal Reserve Notes that they just purchased for two and a half cents per bill! Next, the privately owned Federal Reserve purchases the other $300 billion in U.S. Bonds with a simple ten second computer entry that transfers $300 billion in credit into the United States Treasury account. Where did the privately owned Federal Reserve System get the $300 billion? It created it from NOTHING.

The People are then obligated to repay the privately owned Federal Reserve, with their tax dollars, at full face value, plus interest (which is converted to gold at par, through the International Monetary Fund). The privately owned Federal Reserve Notes and federal government credits were created for virtually nothing.

Conversely, the repayment of just the interest on these bonds requires a Citizens¹ physical labor from approximately January 1st until May 1st and giving 100% of their substance to the privately owned Federal Reserve. What does the privately owned Federal Reserve or the federal government give back to We the People in exchange for the sweat of our brow? NOTHING! ZIP! NADA! That constitutes servitude without just compensation.

COST TO WE THE PEOPLE: $300 Billion, $100 Million, plus continuously compounding interest.

COST TO THE PRIVATELY OWNED FEDERAL RESERVE: About $26,000

"PERMIT ME TO CONTROL THE CURRENCY OF A NATION AND I CARE NOT WHO MAKES ITS
LAWS!" Baron de Rothschild

You know the funny thing is that my high school history teacher understood this and tried to teach us what really goes on. I ,and my other classmates I suspect, could not grasp the concept as being possible. I guess that comes from growing up in a place where crime was almost non-existant and believing that the government was benevolent. After 30 years, I ran into him at the supermarket and in our conversation I told him that I finally came to grips with what he had tried to teach us so long ago, we both had a good laugh.  

The Currency Act of 1792 defines a "dollar" as 412.5 grains of 9/10 fine silver ( originally 371.25 grains fo 11/12 fine silver). This act has never been revoked. FRN's are not redeemable in silver. Consider this, your property tax notices never show a dollar sign, why, because property is tangable---there is no real money, it would be fraud to attach the dollar sign to a bill that is attached to something that is real.

No I don't see Greenspan as the puppetmaster, he is just the front man for the reserve and the corporate government, for a "fiction" to appear "real" it has to employ a human being to appear to be the authority. The international bankers are the ones pulling the strings.

Anyone who has a SS card also has the secondary number, it may not be on your card now, but if you get a duplicate card it will be there. Each and every one of us are considered to be "collateral" for unknown (to us) ammounts of this fiat money each piece bearing that number that was assigned to you. What else does the government have to back the fiat money? If all the national debt were called in, the whole value of the US x 3 would be required to pay it off. Are we going to impregnate the country and hope it has twins?

Now, just where is that birth certificate???

How about Executive Order 13037?  Smoke this over: http://www.freedomdomain.com/redemption/eo13037_1.html

Are you "human capital"?

Did you know that one of the first major operations for the IMF, which is funded by the Fed, was the funding of the Bolshevic Revolution in Russia?

And now to toast that noodle---------It is a documented fact(in court records, no less) that the IRS is not a USG agency and neither you nor they can show us a law that makes us liable to file or pay income taxes---don't believe me, go to their own code book and read. My what would all those people do if they were suddenly out of "work"?
First you must know who you are and who they are. Are you a person or a individual? Heck, form 1040 is not even a stand alone document----do they tell you that? Sure they do, that is if you know where to look.

Better yet, show up in Austin, Texas this saturday at the corner directly across from the IRS building and explain to the crowd there that you can answer the question that the gentleman there who is into 40+ days of a hunger strike to the death or answer of (1) question from the IRS. I truly wish him success in his quest, but as of yet there has been no official response from them or our government even though the question has been asked in petition after petition over the last few years. My, did you see anything about that on the evening indoctrination (news)program?

Remember the training program, when they were walking against the flow of the crowd? Where are you? Are you ready?

[Lynn]

... in response to This will cook your noodle later...., posted by Lynn on May 23, 2003

.........SHHHHH...................