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Author Topic: My method idea...critique please  (Read 11987 times)
Safari
Guest
« on: May 20, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

I've read the WOVO vs. WMVM debate here many times.

In either case, assuming you have only a short time to visit,
IMO you still don't get to spend much time getting to know
your girl(s) beyond what technology allows.

So...has anyone lived and worked in the FSU, having lots of
time to get to know their girl(s) in person.

I have traveled a lot for a young person, and Russia is high on
my list of countries yet to be seen.  In this case I'm considering
teaching English as a vehicle to explore the country culturally
and then also my options.

I'd aim for a larger city, but then I have read posts here on the
negative aspects of urbanite women.

Comments?

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KenC
Guest
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to My method idea...critique please, posted by Safari on May 20, 2003

Safari,
I am posting here to counter balance the advice you received from Travis.  Not all young RW are terrible like Travis implies.  My wife was 21 when she arrived here and never played the games that Travis writes about.  Travis has it in his mind that it is the age of the woman you select that is most important and I simply disagree.  What is most important to the selection process, in my opinion, is to thoroughly know the woman.  Most guys rush into a relationship with a RW without knowing her completely.  Even with the availability of email, it is most important to spend a lot of "face to face" time before you make such an important commitment.  If you do not know the other person, marriage will be a high risk proposition no matter what the age of the woman is.

On a forum such as this one, you must really consider the source of the advice you receive.  Misinformation is commonly dealt out from guys that have failed miserably or just plain do not have the experience.  Travis seems to blame his plight on the young age of his wife for example.  There are others here who post daily that have made one quick trip to Russia (and failed) or even some that believe themselves to be experts without ever actually going to Russia at all.  Be careful who's advice you listen to.
KenC
(My qualifications: strong 4 year marriage to a woman 25 years my junior)

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John K
Guest
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Be careful who you listen to, posted by KenC on May 22, 2003

Wow!  And I thought the 16+ years between Marina and I was a little extreme...

How does your wife feel about the age difference?  For Marina, she enjoys it, as she has a thing for older men.  On the other hand, even though she enjoys the age difference, she is determined to make me look younger and keep me looking young.  

There is a little bit of irony in that.  Marina wants me to look younger, as she really doesn't want her friends and distant relatives to know how much difference is between us.  On the other hand, I was initially worried about the age difference, but my family and friends didn't care a whit.  They were too busy being relieved that I finally made a commitment to settle down with someone.

When it comes to daily life, Marina and I don't even notice the age difference.  In fact, we lost track of it my first trip over there after a couple of days.  While the age difference is still there, we accept it as a natural thing for us.  

The only time we really consider it is when we plan for the future.  Marina wants to make sure I will be an active father and keep up with our future children.  Once the kids are gone, she wants some good years left in my body for her own personal reasons... :-)  Aside from that, we rarely give it a thought.

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LP
Guest
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Be careful who you listen to, posted by KenC on May 22, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

I've bitten down long enough. Come on, Travis marrys a woman who treats him like dirt before and even during their wedding? A "fiance" who (by his own admission) repeatably wouldn't let him touch her? Who was prone to lies, violence, and demonstrated few if any signs of love for him *before* the marriage? During the time he had a chance to back out? Keerist, most men wouldn't even continue dating such a person, let alone stay on to *marry* them!  

Red flags? I thought the term applied to things that needed to be puzzled out, signs that weren't quite clear...clues as it were. These were not red flags, how much clearer could it have been? What more did he need? He had every chance to bail and he chose not to. This wasn't normal behavior, even for the typical MOB desperado. While I regret his plight, it's difficult to have lots of sympathy for a guy who ignores a loaded gun openly pointed at his heart while helping to pull the trigger.

It's been suggested that other guys may meet women who will treat them this way and need to remember this experience?!? Do others really need to recall his experience to make the right decision if this happens to them? Does anyone here need this kind of "help"? Yikes!

At least he accepts he was an idiot but, based on what I've read thus far, I find it difficult to place much blame on her or to sauve his ego when he really ought to be slapped silly. What he did hurts all MOB guys, it makes them look like the losers most outsiders believe them to be. His story is yet another example of why the public's perception of MOB men has more than a ring of truth to it.

I take no pleasure in the demise of his marriage but I see nothing noble in his confessing to the world his amazing lack of self control. In fact, I see it as more faulty decision making on his part. And to stroke a grown man who should have known better (while shaking your heads over how bad she was)...well, it simply makes those who do it look like birds of his feather.

Travis, I mean you no harm and I hope you don't take too much offense but lets face it: You screwed the pooch big time. You acted the fool more than most and aren't even remotely entitled to the "men do strange things when in love" defense. The signs you ignored *easily* disqualifies you from receiving that kind of slack. Your story is a new high is MOB irrationality, besting even our lovable David SD's. (The fact you seem sane makes it all the more amazing.)

If there is anything to be learned from your experience, it's that *you* were responsible. Some might even say deserving. Seems to me you worked at earning it. This was not a scam on her part, just plain lunacy on your's. You married a woman after staggeringly obvious signs (not "red flags") that not only didn't she love you but was not a quality human being in the first place. Signs that have *no* valid reason for ignoring. To say you loved her all the while she was giving you these clear signs only makes you look more a fool.

It's not my intent to discourage any man from coming here and telling how he was tricked, scammed, or manipulated in some fashion but in this case I don't see that. Why anyone would fess up to this kinda stuff is, at least to me, mind boggling.

Doesn't anyone else see it this way? If it turns out I'm the only one, well, I won't be too surprised.

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KenC
Guest
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Thats a fact...., posted by LP on May 22, 2003

LP,
I see exactly what you are saying and agree.  The goal of my post was not to hammer Travis, but to hammer his advice.  He screwed up in a major way, so how does that give his advice any credibility?  His advice is tainted by his bitterness to his ex.  Now all girls her age are evil.  Give me a friggen break.  This is an open forum so anyone can post even if they have no reason.  Of course "reason" never stopped Wsbill.  LOL.  (I would ask Bill for advice on tomatoes, but never for advice on women) There even have been the "experts" that had never ventured to Russia.  Barry comes to mind as an example.  A smart man (even a newbie) should qualify the people he takes advice from is all I am really saying.  Let us not forget luck either.  There have been guys here that did everything wrong and it still worked for them.  I don't consider myself an expert, but someone that has a fair share of common sense. (And a hell of a lot of luck too)
KenC
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LP
Guest
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to you are not alone  , posted by KenC on May 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...The guy is bent and rightly so, but it should be at himself more than her. I expect most guys to be a little bitter after an event like his but it struck me as pretty bizzare even among most MOB divorces.(At least the ones we hear about, God knows about the ones we don't.) What got me was how he blew his chance to prevent it in the first place. I know if it was me (not a chance) I'd be bangin my head against the wall for months, starting now.

Lol, I hear ya about old Bill, they broke the mold when they made him. You know that feeling you get when you lean back in a chair and almost go over? That few seconds of imbalance? Me thinks he feels like that all the time. ;-)

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Travis
Guest
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to you are not alone  , posted by KenC on May 23, 2003

But I never said that age was a factor in my marriage problems. Our problem was intent. Regarding age, I simply stated that age should be considered as I personaly doubt that younger women are really ready for marriage, or rather want it or the constraints marriage has. Yours fortuanately is an exception.
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KenC
Guest
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: you are not alone  , posted by Travis on May 23, 2003

Travis,
Not to beat a dead horse (too much) but when you make comments like "young RW have a short shelf life" and "You shouldn't waste your time on the younger women there" it SURE sounds like you're putting the blame on her age.
-
The truth of the matter is, in my opinion, that marrying any woman is a risk, but a foreign woman is a VERY RISKY PROPOSITION.  GREATER precautions should be taken but the reality is that because of geography, less precautions are usually the norm.  Now if you compound that greater risk with a strange culure and language difficulties, it almost becomes a "sucker's bet".  But wait, there's more, let's assume that the guy is not that good with women to begin with, which seems to be at least true in more than 50% of the cases.  THAT guy (not saying you Travis) might have better odds buying a Lotto ticket!
KenC
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Travis
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to a sucker's bet, posted by KenC on May 23, 2003

I never made the statement "young RW have a short shelf life". I do think it's more apt to failure, but I don't feel that is restricted to Russian women, just most people in general. American, Russian, male or female. I look back to when I was say 21 or so, I was nowhere near being ready to marry, I wanted to play, and did. But as I said before, it does NOT apply to everyone. We all cannot be placed into one mold! My best friend married at 22 I think, and is still happily married. It is simply my personal opinion that most people around this age aren't ready. Not all, but most.

Everything else you state I completely agree with. And I don't blame my wifes age for our problems, I blame her intent and my stupidity. Her age was a contributing factor, but in a very minor sense.

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thesearch
Guest
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to a sucker's bet, posted by KenC on May 23, 2003

I agree that it did sound like Travis was putting blame on age and the context of how he meant that and to what degree is only brought out by being challenged as you did and thus some perspective and clarity might result.

Perhaps Travis overstated his point on age. However, I think it is a safe bet to say that there is more risk with younger women. Let me re-phrase that - it is my impression that such is the case.

There have been posts from FSU women in their late 30's who comment that the younger women are changing. They are not like what they were like when they were younger. There is a trend to be materialistic, the values the we associate these women with are not as intrenched in the younger women.

Is this true?  How would I know. Those who know are the ones over there living in and seeing it. Just because of few women tell us this is what they see ---- it is still only that --- a few women telling us such.  If there is a trend of such is it everywhere?  I sure would doubt it. But still it is all speculation.

I think that if he had stated that was his impression that one should have a bit more  caution when courting younger women versus sounding as though he was blaming things on the age issue feathers would not have been so easily ruffled. Just my perspective

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Travis
Guest
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Thats a fact...., posted by LP on May 22, 2003

Most everything you say is very true and I have no choice but to agree with. I will admit it! And I have too. Hopefully you don't think I post here because I want to prove to the world that I was an idiot, which I was. I post here because if what I did and say keeps just one person from doing what I did, it would be worth it. And I'll state again, I don't want or need sympathy, slack or be stroked, I got myself into my predictament, I'll get myself out.

I haven't posted all the details of my marriage and what happened. Nor have I posted much regarding my personality or what my wife went through. This isn't justification, it's just how I am and the facts. That I can't change, neither can history. My wife had emotional problems. I knew this before we married. I honestly thought I could help her. Her parents divorced when she was 8. She lived with her mother after the divorce and her father moved into his mothers apartment. Her father basically disowned her because she went with her mother and not him. When she was 14, March 8th ironically, she found her mother dead on the kitchen floor with a bullet in her head. Appearently some drug related issue but never solved. She lived on her own from then until we married. My biggest mistake was thinking that I could magically erase all the bad things that happened to her and make her life wonderful. Me knowing what occured in her past made me try very hard to overlook things about her. Excuseable? No. But it's a flaw in my personality.

Was it right of me to think I was going to be some knight in shining armor that was going to save her? No. Am I at fault for what happened? Very much so. Is she at fault. Yes. I don't need anyone to "suave" my ego. Should I have been slapped silly? Good God YES!

You don't offend me nor cause me any harm. I understand that I have not said everything regarding what happened, you don't know me and you don't know her or our history.  

My disagreements are that she and her friends were responsible! Myself also. It was a scam! And I know I look the fool, but I do love her. That I can't help. I mistakenly thought I could help and could be that dumb @ss knight, but I was very wrong. I was competing with her friends. My loss! I was partly responsible and have admitted that here time and time again. I still can't believe it isn't her best friends @ss she wants to beat, rather mine. I guess she hasn't yet understood what her friend did to her. We won't even touch on some other issues. I wish I could, but the timing isn't right yet.

My goal by posting here is not for sympathy, to embaress myself or to make the whole MOB scene look like losers. It's simply to state what happened to me in the hopes that it doesn't happen to another.

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LP
Guest
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: Thats a fact...., posted by Travis on May 23, 2003

..intent to beat on you Travis, it's just that I don't sugar coat stuff. I'll admit you're handling it well, all things considered. There is only so much I can tolerate when I keep seeing the blame placed on her. Yes, she sounds like a succubus, but you allowed her to pull it off.

The point I was tryin to make is no one should need to know your story to avoid what happened to you. And now that we hear know more details I feel it's even more true. People do some pretty strange sheet when they're in love but there has to be a limit. No matter what, a man needs to be true to himself first and you did not.

Fwiw, you made one of the all time classic MOB mistakes: The "Knight in Shining Armor", the "I'll save her", was the first thing you needed to lose. Take heart however, you're not the first (or last) man to tread that delusional path. Even your's truly suffered from it in the beginning, what seems now like a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. I wised up quick on that issue however....

Still love her? Just wait a few months. Then you'll be even more angry at yourself for feeling that way. I'll give ya one thing, if it was me I wouldn't be brushing it off so easily. I only say that because my own past has been enough to prevent me from ever getting into your situation. In that respect, many of us simply have the jump on you. When you pay to learn, you learn.

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Travis
Guest
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Look, it ain't my...., posted by LP on May 23, 2003

I know it isn't your intent to beat up on me. I deserve what I got, somewhat. Yes, I allowed her to pull it off. I never said all the blame was on her, just her initial intent, which I allowed (my fault). Okay, I admit it, I hoped for the best and was wrong...VERY wrong. My intent to help her and be there for here, STUPID.

But there are very possibly other men out there that will overlook things. I don't mean as terribly as I did but rather overlook a lie here and there. These things I did and I'm not at all proud of them. But my point is a lie is a lie. DON'T overlook a lie!

Still love her? Yes, in some respects. But I also know what I loved was a facade. It wasn't real. That will pass. Please take my word for it, I'm not brushing it off. But I still have difficulty turning off what I feel. Sounds weak I know. For some reason I still think if it were just she and I, we could have made it. But I had her friends to contend with which gave me no chance. I've had relationships that have ended, but this is the first that I REALLY paided. I'm too old to be learning these things!!!

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Globetrotter
Guest
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: Look, it ain't my...., posted by Travis on May 23, 2003

You are handling this well.  Also, others are right in that age isn't as important as the person herself, and that your
"inklings" were more than red flags.  Truely an inexpensive lesson.  Just think if you had gotten her pregnant!

Because we're dealing with another culture we don't know much about, and the numbers of willing women wanting to get out, it's easy to fool ourselves into believing, rationalizing, any fantasy we want to tell ourselves.  Even LP admits to having needed to "correct" himself.  Look inwards from now on, young man.

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Stevo
Guest
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Thats a fact...., posted by LP on May 22, 2003

not take the appropriate action (Pow, to the moon!) is beyond me.  If anyone thinks those signs were red flags (to be ferreted out like some mystery), then one must wonder what a 'real' problem would be like.

Red flag = 'she f***s my brains out, but wants to know everything about green cards'

WMD = 'she won't let me touch her and beats the crap out of me'

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