Sealing the deal

[Lynn]

... in response to Address on the way, posted by John K on May 16, 2003

A Caveat Against Injustice

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/caveat.html

[Lynn]

... in response to Address on the way, posted by John K on May 16, 2003

I'll try to have them in the mail tomorrow. By the way, if you are interested, I have found a source for "legal" size flags--- legal meaning as per Title 4 USC, ss 1,2,& 3 and Executive Orders----very hard to find, almost impossible, that is if you are interested----99%+ are illegal according to these and other regulations.

Lynn

[John K]

... in response to Re: Address on the way, posted by Lynn on May 16, 2003

The missus doesn't want any flags on our property.  I offered to get her a Ukrainian flag and she objected even more than the idea of an American flag.  Ukrainians really don't have as strong a sense of national pride as Americans do.  I think if it weren't for the draft, there'd be no military...

[LP]

... in response to Re: I'm gotta do some reading..., posted by Lynn on May 15, 2003

...John is wise enough to educate himself, most folks find it hard to accept they don't know what they don't know and he gets points for understanding that. Knowledge is power and most of our fine citizens could care less about investing the time to really learn what is going on. Kudos to him for making the effort.

[Robert D]

... in response to At least...., posted by LP on May 16, 2003

To disagree does not mean someone does not understand incapable of understanding.  
There are some serious flaws in this thread.  
Robert D.

[LP]

... in response to Re: At least...., posted by Robert D on May 16, 2003

....except that often the basis for disagreement stems from ignorance, especially in matters not easily comprehended or when one is not informed. I never said anyone was incapable of understanding, I'm only saying they're usually not well informed. Ignorance, by definition, is when one doesn't know better.

Being knowledgable about a subject can mean the difference between offering a simple opinion and possessing the facts. Facts usually impart a higher degree of truth. It takes real effort to learn things and one truth is that most people would rather die than make that effort. As a side note, MOB cultdom clearly demonstrates it's filled by men who need to work on thinking.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: At least...., posted by Robert D on May 16, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

Point I ; Maybe I should have modified his quote to  say "lack of knowledge" instead of "ignorance", but the point is that with knowledge comes responsibility and accountability.

Point II ; And that would be?

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Re: At least...., posted by Lynn on May 16, 2003

Well since I deleted this after I wrote it and do not feel like doing it all over again, let's try this.  I think it unwise to address some of the obersvations made as I think the feelings of some of you run so deeply as to make that exercise a bit usless.  So I will try this and then leave it alone.   I have had some experience with our constitution and have been lucky to have met, debated, etc, many constitutional experts with Phd and JD after their names and sometimes both.   Now I do not suggest that only people with letter after their names are any better at pouring p (iss) out of a boot than anyone else, or that they are never wrong or that have have any more common sense, than the next person.   But I have know some of these people who have made as their life's work (and their living too) dealing with, debating the constitution.  And I do value some of their opinions.    And this has left me to belief several things.  (including my own observations and reading etc).   The debate over strict construction and liberal construction of our consititution is nothing new.  I think it began befor the ink was dry on the original document.  I have watched the efforts of our society try to work within the document, and sometimes work outside of the document.  It is the latter that causes many of us concern, and normally finds that issue being address by the high court, or even by constitutional amendments.  (you know the place in the consitituion has those right folks like to rattle off after high school civics.  Freedom of association and religion, speech, etc, and the right to privacy.  ooops Did I say right to privacy, that which we hold so dear as being part of our constitution? More on that later)  
    I have watched our high court offer nothing more than terriffic legal fiction to justify Roe v. Wade ( I make no judgment on abortion right or wrong here, it is the constitution issue I address only) by holding that a prenumbra approach to our Consitituion indicates that we have something that we take for granted that is a constitutional guarantee.   The right to privacy.  You know that one.  The one we will shoot just about anyone that trys to deny us that right.   Well it was that "right" that was used to support a woman's right to an abortion.  Now this upset ultra conservatives and frankly strict constructionist as well.  (hummmm)
  I watched that same court as I recall, add another right to us, not mentioned in our consitution Mirranda.   Something that protects us, or was supposed to, from that so terrible police state we live in to assure we are afforded all of the rights under out consititution when the government decides we may have done something wrong.  Now here is the strange part.  Here Ultra conservations were please, because it puts some check on that evil government thing.   Here the liberals were happy too.  (now that is scary)   The problem is both Roe and Mirranda are just to examples of how our consitution and our leaders (and the courts) struggle to make decisions that reflect current concerns.   Is it perfect, nope.  Does it need correction or modification from time to time, you bet.  (you know like the amendments.  yep the ones that we like to much, free of press, religion, etc.)  Is the document flawed and we discover its flaws from time to time, SURE.   (sort of like the flaw in another document- that some hold so dear.  "We hold as self evident that all men are created equal" - well except Native American, slaves, and women. --- which leads one to think, is the document or its principles flawed?   Nope not at all.   It is our (or was our)inability to live up to those principles that was the problem.  
    You see folks our constitution allows us to mess with it or challenge it, ie poke prod etc, because it was created for that purpose.  Not to be static, and when we challenge it, for good or evil reasons of some, we are forced to deal with it, work it, and make it work.  Does it work all the time, nope, nothing that man has ever done works all the time.  Does it work most of the time? YOU BET.  Is there another example in any other country on earth that is any better, NOPE, that is why most eveyone tries to copy the original.   If our consitituion were not somewhat flexible, we would never have purchased the Louisiana Purchase, or even expanded to our western boarders.  If it were not flexible, you would not enjoy some of the freedoms you hold so dear, the privacy fiction, etc, and you would feel even more victimized by the evil nameless faceless beast the govenment.  (you know the ones we elect- and yes I know they may not represent all of your views, but nor do they represent all or even most of mine, but somewhere, somehow, these folks get the majority of those thinkless mindless fools to vote -or many folks are too busy drinking beer at home to vote and they get elected)
   The point is like everthing else, it works, may get broke from time to time, we make efforts to fix it, (not the best efforts sometime) but we are not headed to doom and gloom, at least not that i have seen when I started looking at it almost 30 years ago.  So that is the long way to answer your question, without going bit by bit at each point, as I am sure we could not begin to agree even on the base points to make a discussion of the finer points worthwhile.

No flames intended

Robert D.

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: At least...., posted by Robert D on May 16, 2003

One last more specfic comment.  Yes I have read the Patriot
act.  Yes some of it disturbs me.  But I also know that we have passed many laws that once challenged by an agrieved party have been struck down, modified etc, after one shows that they are unconstitutional or the law are changed after the government has abused their powers, etc.  Just because congress does something wrong does not mean that there are a dozen little men in a smoke filled room seeking to find ways into my silly little life.  (heck that is what liberals think about everthing, including all corporate america.)   Sometimes such acts represent the efforts of well meaning people, or in some cases, decision makers that have run out of options to do what has to be done.  (in this case terrorism)  Now I do not justify what all is done, but I again as myself befor I am critical, what solution can I offer?   In my mind, we as amimals - which is all we are in the end- just smart ones it seems, we inside ourselves like nature always seek balance as an important way of survival.  When extremes rule, ie Hitler in Europe etc, well we sort of get out of balance and action is required to bring things into a more NATURAL order.   It is easy for us to know this balance as it is a natural part of our being in my belief.   My Grandmother always said, it is easy to do right, as it comes naturally if you let it.  It is trying to make wrong thing into right things that is difficult and it will always be so.
So I think I just chill and like the discussion, but frankly do not get alarmed and raise my voice when I think it makes a difference and wait for the balance to return as it has over and over again in  our history.

Robert D.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: At least...., posted by Robert D on May 16, 2003

You made some good generalization points and in a broad view I have to agree that our govenment has worked fairly well so far, at least in the general public's eye---but then again as you said "most of them are too busy drinking beer to notice". The one thing that has kept it from going to far off kilter is Article II of the Bill of Rights and the fact that most American housholds have at least one firearm on hand.
If everybody sat back and waited for things to "balance", our soldiers would all be wearing the insignia of that communist spawned organization, the U.N., and our wonderful legislators would just turn the country over to them, and believe it or not it has already begun---Don't believe it? read the Desertification Act, check out UNESCO, do a little reading on Slick Willie and granting of jurisdiction over all major lakes and rivers. What has been going on and constantly escalating over the last 70 years is nothing "NATURAL", it is very methodical and gradual for fear of shaking up someone's beer, bring it to a head and causing the public to take notice.

So you are a lawyer, right? OK, got a question. If a person is found guilty of a crime and ordered to pay a fine and he has nothing but federal reserve notes in his pocket, can he be compelled to pay with them? chew on that for a while

Lynn

[Robert D]

... in response to late reply, been way too busy......, posted by Lynn on May 18, 2003

Well thanks or at least suggesting I may have at least a few good points.  I have had a few glasses of wine tonight so I am a bit slow and will end my comments on this thread with this.  I do think our efforts to seek balance would prevent us from giving our national identity to any other country or body.  We have an interesting history of seemingly being a very nice bunch of people, but with some idea of when we have had enough.   Think about it.  We left europe alone and even dd not attack Japan first even when we knew war would likely have to be fought.  (frankly we are too nice if you ask me, and should have followed Chruchhill's advice much earlier.  Heck waiting for years cost the lives of 20 million Russians, (then our temporary allies) and another 8 million allied civilians and combatants. When if we had taken Chruchill's advice, we could have attacked before Germany got too strong and saved many lives.   But that is for another day.   I think that our way of government really means that we will see a swing from time to time to one side or another and wait and see how most things work, modify it a bit, and then see how that works for a while. I frankly can think of many things I did not agree with if you take a snapshot of any point in history.   But in the long run, we have delt with some rather extraordinary things in the life of a relatively young nation.  (I think most of us forget how rather young our country really is)  Think about it.  We have survived, two world wars, and unlike some former "super powers" came away smelling like a rose.  We have survived, a civil war, two wars with England, one with Spain, one with Mexico, civil rights, the first and possibly a second wave of immigration, two economic failures, presidential impeachments, presidential assinations, good lord, have I forgotten any?  And yet, in spite of it all, unlike some of our friends, we have done rather well in my view, and are still the BEST example of how to make things work. Lynn  I bet if I asked you to give me an example of the place you would rather live than here, you would tell me to take a walk.  
  As for the money issue, I have heard many times the arguments on why it is soooooo bad we are no longer on the gold standard, etc.    Well I am no economist, but frankly even the gold standard required faith that gold had some value.  And frankly when we were all on it, well even before that, could anyone ever have thought of titanium, etc in the 1700's?  Nope.  So I guess it should have no value?  Think back to my suggestion regarding the need to be flexible, to change with the times, to be competitive.  
   I must say I admire your efforts to read and think as most of us spend more time figuring out what type of beer to drink than developing any political thought.    But I admire most the fact that there is room for us to not agree, to elect folks that represent our interest and allow them  to voice our positions far beyond our counties or cities where we live.  There was a time in my young life where I had troube with flag waving folks, and sometimes still do. I had trouble saying the pledge at school each day, as I felt there were too many examples of injustice in America.   But I was wrong.   Yes there was injustice, and yes I was right to be concerned, but that was just another snap shot in a much larger picture.   Now as a more reasonable person, (I think that comes with age for all of us)  I can not hear Ray Charles sing America the Beautiful, and not get tears in my eyes.  (if you have not heard him sing that one, you gotta do it)  I just do not get excited about the doom stuff.  I sometimes send off a blasting note to a congressman or the like from time to time, but that is about it.   I sort of feel like the little mute boy at the breakfast table.  There was one such boy who was about 6 years old. He was a perfect little one. Except one thing, he could not speak.   He went to school, and got good grades.   He played with other kid and was just fine.  He even played with his sisters and brothers.  Well one day at breakfast as he got ready for school, he was at the breakfast table, with his Mom Dad, and sisters and brothers.  Dad read the paper and Mom got breakfast ready.  The kids made noise, as kids do.  The little on sat down as he did always and had his bowl of oatmeal as he did most mornings.  All of a sudden, the boy spoke for the first time.  "oatmeal cold".  Everyone stopped.  Mom let go of a pot and it hit the floor, the kids froze and did not speak, Dad laid down his paper and said, "son.  What did you say?"  And the boy said  "oatmeal cold".  Well Mom fainted, Dad began to cry and say. "My son my son he can speak.  This is a miracle. This is terrific.  Son I did not know you could speak. But  . . .  after 6 years of living here and going to school, playing with your friends and family, why now?   Why now do you speak and tell  us that of all things your oat meal is cold?"  And the little boy said,. . .  "Well up to now everything has been just fine!"  

    And that I think sort of says it all about us Americans.  We will speak up when we have had enough

Sorry this is so long. If I could only figure out how to work spell check with this darn thing
     Robert D.
Robert D.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: late reply, been way too busy......, posted by Robert D on May 18, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

I'll bet you did really well in law school, you have quite a way of circumventing almost any question.

Regarding the gold standard, all I need to know about that issue is found in these passages: Leviticus 19:35-36, Deuteronomy 25:13 -16, Proverbs 16:11, Proverbs 20:23. Where or when in written history has gold or precious metal not been of value?

Now, I knew you would not answer the question that I just posed in the previous post. We both know why.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: late reply, been way too busy......, posted by Lynn on May 18, 2003

Well it's been two days and no comment. I guess I have to answer for you -- again.

Regarding wheater or not someone who has been found to be at fault and a fine has been set by the court: No, he cannot be compelled to pay in federal reserve notes or "paper money" as we know it, unless of course the judge wants to commit a felony. And, by the way, that has nothing to do with a argument over the gold standard----it is the law, plain and simple.

[Lynn]

... in response to At least...., posted by LP on May 16, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

Oh yes, agreed 100%.

Dogma is hard to shake. We all want to have faith.

Winston Churchill once said that; "Most men come face to face with Truth and they just brush them-selves off and hurry on their way."

Anonymous:

"When we awake, the dream is gone, the illusion falls away and the truth shall shine forth"

[LP]

... in response to Re: In rebuttal, posted by Lynn on May 14, 2003

...your breath Lynn, you'll never reach the masses. Most are too ignorant of the country's history to make any informed statement. Good old Thomas J...he must be spinning in his grave. As for the Patriot Act, right on. Sadly, it's just another in a long line of documents the public is too lazy to read.

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed - and thus clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins - most of them imaginary." - H. L. Mencken