a question I asked Jack

[thesearch]

I thought that I would copy and paste this post by Jack that posted on 3/11/03.  I sensed that many did not get to read it based upon timing of the post and location relative to active threads..

Jack had said that with his experience, around 78 % wmvm and 22 % wovo.

I asked Jack a question about success as he has observed it relative to these two approaches. Here was his response:  

Jack: "Greg based on the guys I work with, and have worked with over the last five years, of the guys who are truely serious, not the type of guys who are clueless and flip-flop on ideas, procedures and opinions weekly, but of the truely serious guys who approach this pursuit in such a manner, between 15 and 18% of the guys who wovo end up in marrying that woman. I see about 26% of the guys who wovo actually bringing the lady over on a K-1 but she returns and I see about a third of the guys who wovo actually getting engaged while in the FSU. About 65% of the guys who wovo come back with a little different attitude about wovo. Of the 65% who return feeling they were unsuccessful with the wovo approach, about 70% will change and go wmvm and about 30% will again go the wovo.

Again wovo or wmvm is a personal thing. There is no right or wrong way. Some guys just cannot write more than one, or want to write more than one woman at a time. They are only comfortable with wovo and so this is of course the best way for them."

[John K]

... in response to a question I asked Jack, posted by thesearch on Mar 25, 2003

I wrote many, visited one (WMVO).  I felt visiting more than one at a time was not fair to the ladies, nor to me, as there would likely be competetive issues that would cloud the decision making process.  Luckily for me, the one I visited I married.  Actually, I'm an anomaly, as I was engaged before I ever physically met her.  Still, there is no one correct way to do things...

[SteveM]

... in response to a question I asked Jack, posted by thesearch on Mar 25, 2003

I think I have said this before, but just a reminder.  A woman who is not completely sold on marrying an American and leaving her home and family may not be interested in being one of many you write or visit.  My wife has often said that if she knew I was going to meet others, she never would have met me.  So, do consider if the one(s) you are interested in are...

Women Who Won't Want You if You Write Many Visit Many

I am sure it works either way for different people; this is just my own experience.

Steve M.

[thesearch]

... in response to Also consider the WWWWYIYWMVM, posted by SteveM on Mar 26, 2003

Steve,

Then you were the only man that she wrote to?

[SteveM]

... in response to Re: Also consider the WWWWYIYWMVM, posted by thesearch on Mar 26, 2003

Actually, we had access to online chat when she was at work, and she sent me her phone number before the second weekend home after we met.  She had certainly replied to other emails from people she (and I) had met in the chat room, but things did not progress past that point with anyone else but me, AFAIK.

[DanM]

... in response to a question I asked Jack, posted by thesearch on Mar 25, 2003

I tried the WMVM and it did not work for me. Thats not to say it does not work well for others, but it was not my route to happiness. I then tried a WMVO, that was really a WOVO for the last 2 months.

Although I agree with MarkInTx that a statistical analysis would be limited, I do also think Jack has more than enough personal expereince to be considered an expert on this subject. At least he would be more of an expert than almost anyone else I have know. As such, I think there is a lot of first hand knowledge behind his statements and this is what gives credibility to his support of the WMVM approach.

Bottom line is that I think the WMVM approach works if it is right for your temperment. If you only want to go to the FSU once or twice and you want to maximize your chances of meeting the right girl, then of course WMVM is the best method. If it just feels weird for you to have this sort of conversation with several girls at the same time, however, then its probably not the right fit.

Sometimes things look better on paper than they do when applied. Although the math makes WMVM an obvious choice, each person's own comfort level is an overridding factor. Think about what is right for you and act accordingly. Just my opinion.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to a question I asked Jack, posted by thesearch on Mar 25, 2003

Dear Doctor:

Even if these figures are completely accurate, they are somewhat skewed by the nature of your source.

This is obvious. To draw a parallel:

If I conducted an online poll asking: "How important is the internet in your day to day life?" and then reported that over 90% of the respondents claimed it was "Very Important"... can I then conclude that 90% of all Americans find the internet important to their day to day lives?

Not hardly. The fact that the respondents were able to get on the internet shows a certain bias.

Likewise, a marriage agency -- especially one which has been extremely vocal in promoting the WMVM approach -- will necessarily draw men who are more inclined to go with that approach, and their numbers will skew accordingly.

I could tell you that over 90% of the guys who write to me and tell me of their trips to Russia are WOVO guys. And, in fact, that is true. However, considering the fact that I am on record as being a proponent of the WOVO, that makes perfect sense.

Of the people I have personally met, corresponded with, and gotten to know, the success stories have been overwhelmingly WOVO.

There is not enough data, however, to be statistically relevant. I submit that no one has those numbers or data…

So, unfortunately, there is no scientific data or approach which can be applied to this.

No matter how much you scientists wish there were :-)

[Dan]

... in response to Re: a question I asked Jack, posted by MarkInTx on Mar 26, 2003

Back when you were a vocal proponent of WMVM, were you then also a magnet for those interested in WMVM???

If the "success stories have been overwhelmingly WOVO" - are you conversely saying that the WMVM have been overwhelmingly *un*successful???

Just curious.

- Dan

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Out of Curiousity . . ., posted by Dan on Mar 26, 2003

First off, I doubt that you are actually curious about anything here, Dan. More like hoping to bait me... but, anyway...

I was never a vocal proponent of WMVM as much as I was simply a first dream follower, doing what my hired expert told me to do.

I was also a newbie, so guys didn't write me much off-line.

It wasn't until after I broke ranks and the flame war erupted that I would get emails from the more timid who wanted to know more. They didn't want to post their questions here, because they knew they would be called idiots and worse for going WOVO.

BTW, for the record, I think that "WOVO" is a misnomer. I never wrote just one person. I did, however, use my letter writing to narrow down the field to just one, whom I then wrote exclusively. WMVO is probably more accurate, at least for me.

As for what I meant when I said: "success stories have been overwhelmingly WOVO" I meant that the guys who wrote me privately to tell me about their successes were almost all WOVO guys. As I stated before, WMVM guys simply didn't write me. Why would they?

As for how many of these guys there were, it varied. Today, when I am hardly active here, I get very few. I suppose in all, I had about fifteen or twenty guys write me off line to tell me about their success stories. Some also post here. Many do not.

Twenty isn't a lot. As I said in my original post to Greg, I don't have enough to make it statistically relevant.

But, it IS about 18 more than this board gets, and that has to do with the hostility that WOVO proponents face on here. Not that anyone on here cares, of course...

Incidentally, I never said that a man could not be successful with the WMVM, or even the approach of organizing your own "Who wants to Marry a Rich American White Guy?" show... but personally I found such methods (especially the latter)  distasteful and demeaning to the women.

And, my main point always was that WOVO had merit. And a man who decides to do it is not a fool. He isn't a good revenue source for an agency, perhaps, but that doesn't make him a fool...

[Zoidberg]

... in response to Re: Out of Curiousity . . ., posted by MarkInTx on Mar 27, 2003

Bottom line on this is anyone will have a better chance at success when you do what you are comfortable with.

I'm not positive but I would guess most guys that are labeled as WOVO actually started out writing a few and then narrowed it down to one to visit. That is what I am doing. I started writing a few and will go visit one.

Another thing I'd like to add is writing and phone conversations can be very important and you can increase your chances for success by asking the right things. I know there are some that say writing is a waste of time after a couple months but I do not see it that way. The girl I am writing we have fun with each other in phone conversations. We sort of "play" with each other as we are comfortable now after writing for months. That kind of comfort brings out so much with each other in our conversations. Granted meeting is the most important step but that brings up one of the reasons I am not comfortable with WMVM. There is no way I can get close to a woman if I am writing a bunch and then visit all of them within a couple months. To me chemistry is much more then just what they look like. There has to be something else there for me that I could not even dream to find by meeting a bunch of strangers. I think the writing time is valuable and you can learn a lot about each other. That's just me but obviously WMVM is fine for some but for me I am not looking to compare women. If I did that I'd never be 100% happy with what I did find. I am just looking for someone I can share my life with. Someone that has the values I do. When I find that woman she will be the best woman in the world.

Z.

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: Out of Curiousity . . ., posted by Zoidberg on Mar 27, 2003

I agree 100% when you say its a matter of what someone feels comfortable doing. A WOVO or WMVO should not be pressured into doing a WMVM just because of the math. Its right for some, but not for all. I found my wife by a WMVO that really evolved into a WOVO for the last two months. That does not mean its right for everyone, but it was right for me.

Please keep posting. This post was a gem.

Thanks.

[Richard]

... in response to Out of Curiousity . . ., posted by Dan on Mar 26, 2003

Dan: I believe I understand where you are headed with your questions.  I don't mean to detract from that, but I'm going to hijack this thread down a slightly different path.  Hopefully, this will also be of interest.  Your post got me wondering about something and I would like to address that.

Dan posits:

If the "success stories have been overwhelmingly WOVO" - are you conversely saying that the WMVM have been overwhelmingly *un*successful???

Richard wonders:

Does one of these two methods have to be *un*successful because the other *is* successful? (I don't want to get into a discussion of which (WOVO or WMVM) is better in this thread.  I'm thinking about tackling that in another post.)  What I am wondering here is give that someone has chosen to visit one or to visit many on a particular trip, is it possible for both methods to produce good results?  By good results, I mean that more than half of the people adopting that approach find someone special that they want to pursue a relationship with? (I'm purposely being vague when I say, "pursue a relationship". Some may find themselves ready to pursue a K1 (or equivalent) while others may be at a point where they need to invest some time getting to know whomever they have met better which will (hopefully) lead to a K1.)

In other words, once a method (wovo or wmvm) has been chosen, can't both methods be successful?

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Out of Curiousity . . ., posted by Richard on Mar 26, 2003

With all the flip-flops in his position/approach - AND the self-proclaimed volume of off-board e-mail he receives - surely Mark can answer your questions.

- Dan

[LP]

... in response to I Am Not Sure, But . . ., posted by Dan on Mar 27, 2003

....I'm sure he can. I found the "Who wants to Marry a Rich American White Guy?" thing to be especially enlightening. ;-)

[thesearch]

... in response to Re: a question I asked Jack, posted by MarkInTx on Mar 26, 2003

Mark,

I would agree with you totally. However, it is information of which there is some value. Your point is well taken as some might not put into the equation the factors you mention.