Bought tickets for May! WOO HOO!!! :)

[juio99]

... in response to did the same thing did NOT work out..., posted by Frank O on Feb 13, 2003

Frank, I continually find it so strange that posts similar to yours appear frequently over the months and in the archives, yet we still have those each week who ignore all of this experience and say things like, "each must do what they feel right about," "my gal is different,"  "we have something special,"  "it is not fair to the ladies to be seeing more than one on each trip," etc., etc.

JR

[Jack]

... in response to Strange, posted by juio99 on Feb 14, 2003

JR you will go crazy if you attempt to try to figure out man.

Each and every man is different. And when you throw beautiful women into the equation too often common sense is thrown out the window.

Many men think pursuing a Russian bride is similar to that of pursuing an American woman. Meet a woman of interest here, get to know her, date only her, take your time. Maybe it turns out to be a long lasting relationship, maybe not. Men here, for the most part, do not date 10-15 new ladies in a 10 day, two week time period. The reason being they are here, at home and they can take there time to see where this one relationship takes them.

Many men think it's no difference with pursuing a Russian bride but in my opinion there is a big difference. The time to make such a trip, only knowing a lady thru letters, e-mail, phone calls, the expense, new culture, traditions, language barrier. I think men need to realize it's not the same as dating an American woman. To a degree guys must learn, or realize there are major differences with regards to this pursuit and what they had previously experienced with local women.

Experience is what teaches men of the major difference's. Frank is a perfect example and I must deal with on average two men who have the same intentions as Frank had every week. Frank knew in his heart that this one woman was the one. I mentioned what could happen and what might be a better game plan, but Frank, like a lot of guys, was convinced that this one woman was for him. But I could tell by Franks attitude that if it didn't work, and he was prepared for this fact, that it may not work, and that he was going to have a good time regardless, which he did.

I think today, after Franks previous experience, he would never go to see just one woman again. And most men who go to see one woman, not all, but most who go to see one woman on there first trip will not do so again.

Experience is the best teacher and when men will share there own experience's it helps many others.

[Frank O]

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Feb 14, 2003

but like you said I was prepared for the worst though I was hoping for the best. I also did not waste any time when things appeared dubious. Live & learn, live & learn.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Feb 14, 2003

You're right Jack in that everyone's play is different.  Guys with looks or money or life's experiences or none of these, or combinations of these all come into play.  What the "chosen" woman is actually looking for makes a rather big difference as well.  How lucky do you feel, and how hard are you willing to work.

You're also sooooooooooo right in that this is about as different to dating a local girl as it gets.

[Zink]

... in response to Re: (*/*), posted by Globetrotter on Feb 14, 2003

Globe, my curiousity is killing me. How do your techniques for dating a Russian differ from dating an American? This is what I really wanted to know from Jack. Yes, Russians are different. But they are still women. I go about this whole thing the same way I would if she lived closer to me. Maybe I'm just missing the difference because I dated Russians and Ukranians here before I ever thought about going overseas. I just don't understand why you'd behave differently from normal when pursuing a Russian. Could you or Jack give me some concise examples of what is so different, please?

[Globetrotter]

... in response to Re: Re: (*/*), posted by Zink on Feb 14, 2003

Zink, you are right in that women are women...everywhere.
Certainly what is not similar is their environment, their treatment by local men, their system of laws, (or lack of protection under them) their income levels, flats in which they live, jobs, education, financial security, language, culture, ties (closeness)to family and friends, and much more.  Finally, their perception of you and you to them, their potential "adaptability" to your surroundings and lifestyle...their new life vs. what was left behind.

Differing techniques?...politeness, wooing and charming them
when with them certainly for me is no different than the same courtesy I would show to a local girl.  The difference is after the "deal" is made and she is enroute to her new life, when the above differences come into play.  Dating local Russians and FSU girls don't count as they are already part of their new society.  Their jobs allow them independance they would not have known before, and they are more self-sufficient than their still overseas counterparts.  I think you already know this, but is something that is not thought about, it seems, by many here.

I'm saying that there is a really big difference in dating a girl from the other side of the tracks, than with dating one from the other side of the ocean...and even more so from former communist eastern Europe than western Europe.  Many here will say that their girl's adaptability has been incredibly positive and they are thrilled within their new environment, and "vive la difference."  Others here have had less positive experiences.  Much has to do with your ability to "tutor" your new bride for 6 months to 2 years, and your patience, (which you don't need to do with a local) your available free time, entertainment you can provide, your bankbook.  You or your local squeeze may have never had an interest in the local Lyric Opera or Symphony Orchestra before.  But it may be a necessity now.

Look, I'm still here, and still thinking about all of this.  I just take the approach that you should...look at the way things really are, as opposed to the way you would like them to be!

With all of this said, plus the financial responsibility
you take on should things go south...tread lightly and with great caution.  For those who have just enough cash to make one trip, fall for a georgeous hottie, get engaged in a week or 2 or 3 and throw caution to the wind, God Bless you and I hope you succeed....but your chances are quite slim.

So...Zink, there are some differences.

PS:  For western men who open car doors for ladies...either it is a new girl or a new car.  For one married fellow I know, the last time he opened the car door for his wife he was traveling down the motorway at 65 miles an hour.

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: (*/*), posted by Globetrotter on Feb 15, 2003

I can agree with much of what Globetrotter says, however, there are many characteristics of the endeavor that are not all that different from dating local women. For instance:

[Disclaimer: This presumes that both men and women are being sincere and reasonably-realistic in their decision-making]

* You still need to find an entree that will allow you to identify someone with similar likes/dislikes/standards. Example: smoker versus non-smoker, Christian versus Jew versus agnostic. Finding suitable ladies in the FSU is no different than finding them in your home country. Internet facilitates either. Sincerity and honesty of the postings? I'd submit they are equally risky.

* You still need to spend time together. Few, if any, reasonable people will promote the mistaken notion that you can meet someone for a week or two or three and then make a decision that fundamentally affects those two people's (or more) lives forever. In this respect, language and geography are issues - but geographically, it is not more challenging than living on one coast of the US and courting a lady on the other side of the country. Language can be overcome, with dedication, in 3 months time. Fundamental impediments are overcome, or managed, with dedication and perspective.

* Cultural differences and the social context of FSU. Sure, it *is* different - and we are all the 'victims' of our experiences. What is most important, however, is how a person will respond to presentation of different perspectives and opinions. That is (IMHO) far more a matter of character than anything else. Another reason for needing to spend significant time together - so as to REALLY understand the person's base character and value system.

Further on the topic of cultural values - the FSU is far from the most removed from western cultures that I've personally encountered. For REAL differences, try the tribal communities of Irian Jaya. Even the more western-exposed cultures of India and Korea seem (to me, anyway) vastly more different from America than the FSU persons I've met and known. I know western guys successfully married to ladies from each of these other cultures - happily and for many years. In point of fact, it was the experience of traveling throughout Asia and living in Taiwan and Germany and personally witnessing the number of strong expatriate/local marriages that led me to the belief that these unions are potentially, far stronger than marriages within one's own cultural/societal group.

I need to confess that I blanch at the oft-suggested criticism of FSU men. I know many men in the FSU that are as upstanding, honest, and loving as any men anywhere in the world. While it is unquestionably true that alcoholism, economic hopelessness and political despair takes their toll on the minds and hearts of many of these men, I maintain that the vast majority of those whom I know personally do not at all fit the stereotype that is commonly reinforced on this, and other, boards. Maybe it's just the subset of men with whom I have contact - maybe.

Some perspective is in order - and it needs to be understood that criticisms of RM are (IMHO - no stats to support it, only personal experience) largely the advent of agencies looking to promote objective rationale for their ladies looking outside the bounds of the FSU.

So it seems to me that fundamentals apply wherever. There is still a selection process - and it involves the exercise of realistic expectations and honesty (on both sides). Once the initial selection is complete - there is the reinforcement/qualification phase in which both sides are insuring the selection was a good one and it provides the basis for projection - determining if the future will, indeed, be a rosy one.

Then, of course - there is the living the decision. The most 'telling' stage of all.

Language and geography are the 2 biggest impediments (IMO) and they are short-lived (3 months) and managed (frequent visits) by those sufficiently dedicated.

FWIW

LP - what's your 'equation'? You've probably resolved this down to a science far better than I have. Secrets/insights?? LOL

- Dan

[LP]

... in response to The Other Side of the Story (Long) . . ...., posted by Dan on Feb 16, 2003

....You know how I feel. I fall on the same "it's not much different than domestic dating" side of the issue. Women are women, period. These women are easier to deal with in many respects because they often play by the old rules. (Of course, if you're a younger guy those rules may be rusty or never learned.) As you said, language and distance are the main issues and they can be dealt with by those dedicated few. I'm still surprised at the many guys who fail to educate themselves even the slightest in the history, language and culture. To fail to do so is denying oneself much of an understanding of where these girls are mentally coming from, not to mention enriching one's own knowledge of the world.

Still, chicks are chicks. Your comment that the "fundementals apply wherever" is dead on. Treat them with respect and understanding and in most caes it'll be fine. As for FSU men, my experience is about the same. Generally speaking, the older ones seem more together, same as in most cultures. (Funny about that life experience thing huh?) But I've met some fine youngsters in Ukraine also, at least one of whom we both know.

They're many things to learn about this pursuit but I think many guys focus too much on the women themselves and not the myriad of other issues that are really different. I'm still amazed at the how many get all wrapped up emotionally, especially as it applies to the (I feel) large percentage of guys who have problems that need solving before they even think about dealing with these girls.

I won't even get into the WOVO debate, there are just to many variables. I have trouble even defining the two methods. From attending a big social (imho bad) to writing only one with no back up plan (also bad), the two methods have lots of middle ground between them. My opinion is as long as there has been no face to face interaction, dealing with only one is a very big crap shoot. The guys who lean that way seem to be those who are young or inexperienced, overly romantic (again from being young and inexperienced) or just folks who've chossen to turn a blind eye to their previous relationships. (A classic case of one individual here.) After an initial visit a guy can develop a few and narrow it down to one before spending even more time with that one. Of course, the desperate ones won't. They'll simply come back and complain how it went sour in spite of them doing everything right.

Btw, I see some of the staunchest advocates of the WOVO have a "back up" plan. Scuse me? How exactly does that tally up? ;-) And many of our greatest advocates seem to have used the WMVM method on their previous trips. What worked in the end seems to be what they push, thats powerful queer if ya ask me. I view it soley as an efficency issue (and remember my travel costs are nothing). If a guys wants to burn up lots of time and money on WOVO (the newbies seem to make up a large percentage of that group for obvious reasons), more power to them. Funny how even a few who've learned the lesson go back to it again and again. As I said, powerful queer. But to each his own, when you pay to learn you usually do.

The other thing I'm amused at is the "all things FSU are great" attitude I often witness here. Lol, kids in a candy shop, some of these guys need a hard lesson before they learn it just ain't so. It strikes me as very revealing as to the reasons they became involved in this in the first place.

[Zink]

... in response to Well said..., posted by LP on Feb 16, 2003

Actually my method is more of a write many-visit few. I hate the pair and a spare mentality that some people have. But we all have to do our own thing. I'm with you on learning all about Russia and not just pick out a woman and come home. I just don't like it when people say that a guy's stupid if he doesn't want to meet dozens at one time. I went to Russia four times to just meet one woman. And I went once to meet many. I preferred meeting just one. I just can't concentrate on more than a couple of women at one time.

Letters are one thing but I hated trying to juggle my time in Russia between several interesting women at once. For me it always seemed to be lots of time alone and then the girls all wanted to meet me on the one day they didn't work. If I could have spread it out over a week it wouldn't have been bad. But going from date to date in one day was nuts. And it would've been worse if I'd tried to hide the fact that I was meeting more than one girl.

I tend to be careful and methodical. I meet one girl give her my full attention for the time that we are together and if it doesn't work I move on. I only need one girl at a time but I was smart enough to know that maybe it wouldn't last. That's why the backups. But then I also don't feel the time constraints that some guys do.

[Philb]

... in response to Grey areas., posted by Zink on Feb 17, 2003

Time constraints. I think a lot of fellows go into this thinking it is the quick route to marriage.  While this can be true I think this is where most mistakes are made.

Probably the best advice anyone could give is take your time.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to The Other Side of the Story (Long) . . ...., posted by Dan on Feb 16, 2003

Much of what you say is true.  Take your post, then mine, throw it into a big pot, stir it up a bit, throw in a couple of strangers with different personalities from different parts of the world, stir it up again...then see what the outcome is.

Ya know, if everyone was starting from the same page, it may be easier to predict, but that's never the case.

With divorce rates so high on each continent, I'd say go slowly.  Warren Buffet once said, "The reason for such high divorce rates are unrealistiic expectations."...so your opinion is shared by good company.

I do know some great AW, one I've known for 30 years, so the hurdles to jump and the faith and trust and love for going the extra mile to join the ranks here, will require some more pondering on my part.

One other thing....also throw into the pot: patience, perseverance and lots of luck.

Good Post Dan!  

[Zink]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: (*/*), posted by Globetrotter on Feb 15, 2003

That was what I was looking for. I agree with you. But from the comments Jack made I thought maybe he knew some secret tip that I haven't learned in the last 3 years of being involved with Russians. I wanted him to show me a concise list of his pros and cons and why he says his way is the best way. I'd like to believe he has his clients interest at heart and isn't just trying to sell more adresses and services.

You are right about the extra effort needed in taking care of the woman once she gets her. I Know people personally that have been involved in the foreign wife deal. Many, many war-brides, A couple of mail order brides, lots of new immigrants. It pays to be careful and know your risks. But in the end the relationship will stand or fall on the strengths and weaknesses of both people involved. All the rest adds to the strain but in my opinion is less important than the couple themselves. That's why I shudder when I think about guys that get married quickly. Some get lucky, some don't. And even if you careful there aren't any guarantees.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: (*/*), posted by Globetrotter on Feb 15, 2003

...opened the door at speed huh? Thats sounds like somethin a chick would do, not a guy. I know a guy who had one get so angry she turned off the key and threw it out the window...the problem was they were in a 182 at the time. (He had a spare key)

They're nuts I tell ya, nuts....

[Globetrotter]

... in response to lol...., posted by LP on Feb 15, 2003

I can see it now...fishing for the spare set in your side pocket at speed.  I hope his steering didn't lock when the key flew out the window.  None of my toys will hit that speed.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: lol...., posted by Globetrotter on Feb 15, 2003

I think he was refering to an airplane, not their speed, hee hee.....hey, maybe she took offense when he asked if she wanted to join the mile high club.