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Author Topic: My Take on Prenups -- FWIW  (Read 5008 times)
MarkInTx
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« on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

Someone recently wrote me offline because they read a post of mine in the archives in which I stated I would definitely be getting a prenup.

They wanted to know if I did, and if so, how to go about doing it.

OK... first the disclaimer. I am NOT an attorney. What I am about to say does not in ANY way constitute legal advice. And even if it is accurate for Texas  it wouldn't necessarily apply for your state.

So, by all means, talk to your attorney.

I sat down with a friend of mine who is an attorney, and this is what he told me. It made sense to me, and it changed my mind about a prenup, so I never got one.

Basically, he told me two things:

One, he had never seen a prenup that he couldn't break, and two, I didn't need one in the state of Texas.

As to the first, his point was that although you CAN write a prenup which can withstand an assault, you can't STOP an assault from being waged. If your wife wants to fight the prenup, then she can make it too expensive for you to try to fend her off, and you end up settling it anyway. It costs a LOT less to start a lawsuit than to defend one. Especially when the end result of the lawsuit is that you break even. It's different when you can counter sue, so if you win you can recoup some costs. But usually in those situations, your wife is pretty broke, her attorney is working on a contingency fee, so you can't win anything except the right to say "I don't owe you anything." If it costs you $10,000 to win that right... aren't you better off giving her nine to go away? (And, of course those numbers change depending on your situation.)

Also, in order to engage in a contract, you have to be deemed legally competent. That includes language. So, if you want to really cover yourself, you not only need to have it translated, you need to pay a Russian speaking attorney to operate on her behalf, explain everything to her, and make sure she understands it. This means that he very well might want to change your prenup for the benefit of his client (your fiancé). So now you have two attorneys jockeying for their clients -- and you are paying for BOTH of them.

When all of this was explained to me, I backed down from it.

Also, Texas is a pretty good state for men. There is no alimony, and we are a common property state. The way it was explained to me, she gets half of whatever we build together, but is not entitled to anything that I had prior to her coming here. Which is actually all I wanted from a prenup, anyway.

So... If you want a little piece of paper that you can wave and say you are protected, I think that a prenup drawn up here, translated by a certified translator, and signed by your fiancé would be sufficient.

But remember, your translator is not an attorney.

If things go south and your wife gets an attorney, it won't protect you at all.

If you want to really protect yourself, you need to get an attorney for you and one for her -- BOTH over there. If you wait until she gets here, and use the 90 days to sign a prenup, she can later claim that she signed it under duress. "I had to sign it or he was going to send me home."

For me, it wasn't worth it. I've been through two divorces, and lost almost a million in tech stocks when the dot com turned dot bomb, so there isn't much left for me to worry about... just the stuff that my wife and I are building together now.

But again, if anyone has any questions, they should ask an attorney they  can trust.



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Charles
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 19, 2003

I think Mark is correct that in almost all instances a prenup is of limited value in community property states like Texas, Georgia, Florida and maybe some others.  A prenup is valuable if you have substantial assets that you want to protect.  It must be done by an attorney and, in my opinion as a part-time lawyer turned consultant, your fiance should probably have an attorney that you hire for her to review the agreement and the agreement translated into Russian so she makes a knowing and voluntary decision to enter into the marriage.  Sounds like a lot of trouble? it is.  That's why I didn't get one.  They're of limited value, difficult to enforce, and costly to obtain.  Finally, think about how your fiance going to feel about this.  Unless you're still in the NBA, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Richard
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by Charles on Jan 19, 2003

While a prenup may not be worthwhile, it is still worthwhile to talk to a lawyer.  It is important to understand the difference between marital property, non marital property and how non-marital property.  This varies from state to state.  

You should also understand an peculiarities of the laws that do apply to you.  I will preface the following by stating that I am not a lawyer, not attempting to practice law and that I may have misunderstood something.  Here in Florida there is called the Homestead Act that applies to the house one lives in.  As I understand it, if I get married my new wife becomes  an equal owner of my house when I get married.  I asked the lawyer (real estate attorney, not divorce attorney) who handled the closing on my house because I had not encountered anything like this with my previous house.

In summary: while a prenup may not be worthwhile, it certainly is worthwhile to consult a lawyer.  Make sure you understand the concepts of marital and non marital property.  As many of you will remember, I made a choice that did not work out as I had hoped with one woman in Kiev...

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Patrick
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: Re: My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by Richard on Jan 19, 2003

Everybody should talk to a lawyer in their area about what protection is available under the current state laws and whether a prenup makes sense for them in their particular area and situation.  Nobody should rely on an internet message board for that kind of information.

I don't think many people would ask for medical advice here.  It should be no different for legal advice.

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Travis
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 19, 2003

I completely agree with you! Nor am I an attorney. But I am going through a divorce at this time...I think it is final on Monday...but a prenup would have changed nothing. I understand it depends on the state that one lives in, but in Texas, it would have been worthless. I still have my house and she is basically entitled to nothing...besides the things that I gave her. Too bad she isn't responsible for half the debt that was accummilated Smiley

Though my situation and state are different from others, I think it is a good idea to consult an attorney. I didn't do this prior to getting married, but I sure as he11 did this when filing for the divorce!

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MarkInTx
Guest
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by Travis on Jan 19, 2003

What part of our great state are you from?

BTW, the debt thing is always the killer. My first wife and I had debt, and we split it in the divorce. I paid mine, she didn't, and now my credit is screwed.

Divorce decree means nothing to the creditors. If your name is on it, you owe it. So, when she had her car repossessed, it goes on my credit report -- even though I could show the transfer of title, divroce decree, everything... Some places will take that into consideration. When I leased my Lexus, for instance, they turned me down until they saw the paperwork form my divorce, then approved me. But it won't help your FICO score, which is what drives a lot of things these days. Even a mortgage.

In retrospect, I should have taken all of the debt and just paid it off. At least my credit wouldn't be in the toilet now...


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BubbaGump
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 19, 2003

I think I will also have to investigate prenups.  I have a lot of assets and I may be entering business deals with some of my friends.  When you have a business you have to consult a lawyer on how your business dealings may be affected by your marriage and possible divorce.  You would also have to consider the impact of death on your holdings and partnerships.  In the end I may be able to structure things so it never matters anyway.  Usually you can keep what you came in with but if assets are comingled it can become a joint asset in the marriage.  I would want to be sure I understand what actions cause that to happen.  Glad I didn't have much when I got divorced the first time.
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Lynn
Guest
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: My Take on Prenups -- FWIW, posted by BubbaGump on Jan 19, 2003

As I have mentioned before, if you don't "own" it, but have the right to enjoy/control/use/benefit/indirectly-profit from your "former" holdings, then what does ownership offer other than leaving your holdings out for someone to take from you and of course bragging rights to saying "I own that"-------like anyone else really cares what you own. I believe the quote goes; "Own nothing, control everything".
I realize this concept is not for everyone, but for those not to caught-up in the stereotype life and are willing to think "out of the box", it has some great advantages.

Lynn

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