Conservative gentlemen and a little more

[Horoshij]

I've got a lot of comment to my recent posts, and I will try to answer and develop my thoughts a little more.

It's true that the Scandinavian countries have gone a third way between Capitalism and Communism. Big parts of our industry has been nationalised, railways, telecommunication, elementary school and higher education have been run by the government. What we have achieved is a very good dispersion of wealth. We have probably the best social security system in the world (together with the other Scandinavian countries) All education has been free and everybody has been together in the same schools. It has given everybody the same possibilities in a higher degree than for example in the USA. Because we all have our education from the public school with the same curriculum, we are a very integrated nation with little crime and coherent culture. The nationalised industry made it possible to create jobs where we needed new jobs. Instead of moving people, we moved jobs. We have got a warmer and more friendly society.

However, there are weaknesses in this system that now are becoming more and more apparent. There will take to much time to write more about it now.

Dave you are claiming that every man makes his own future. I don't believe it is so simple. Most of us on this board are searching for or have found a Russian/Ukrainian woman. Most of those ladies are poor. Are they that because they want it themselves? Because they are lazy? Do you want a lazy and listless lady? I'm quite convinced it's not the truth. They have been living in political system that gave them few possibilities whatever they did. So if you agree with me in this, we can agree that what society you are living in also is important for how your life will be. Therefore like Joe wrote, maybe not all of us have got the same possibilities here in this world, and maybe this has something to do with the political system in our countries.

It looks to me that most of you gentlemen are very conservative. I've have over time noticed that most of you are republicans, and I've began to wonder if that is the reason why you are looking to Russia for a bride. Maybe because so many of you are stuck to the old traditional  values which you no longer can find in your own country, you look to an even more conservative country for wives?

And then to Jski. I agree with you, However, why do you think it's possible for a man with an ordinary income to find a much younger, more beautiful and more educated woman, if it wasn't for the fact that he could offer her a better life also economically? Do you really believe that money/standard of living/security doesn't play any role in this game? Why do you think these ladies want to meet a man from Western Europe, Australia or the USA? If you have enough money you don't need to think about them. If you have too little, you will think about them always.

Haroshij

[Quasimoto]

... in response to Conservative gentlemen and a little more, posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

I think the key is "opportunity"! If you live in a society that provides opportunity, then to reject it is a choice to be a failure. That is the key. In the former FSU countries, there is mainly opportunity through corruption. That is how you become filthy rich there. Hard work is not as rewarded, or as highly regarded among many me. Many people seem to be waiting for someone to take care of them. I know two men there who complain, but do absolutely nothing to find work. We are largely conservative. Many Republicans, and many ex-military men. I myself lived in Europe while attending school, and also was in the ARMY; serving overseas.

Steve

[Horoshij]

... in response to Re: Conservative gentlemen and a little ..., posted by Quasimoto on Jan 3, 2003

Hi Dave,
Yes, you have a very good point. I see that America gives a lot of opportunities to people living there. I remember for about one and a half year ago when we visited my wife's family in Russia, we talked to a teacher. She was very little optimistic on behalf of Russia. We will need a new generation of people so we can get rid of the old thoughts and attitudes from the communist period, she said. The communist period did something with the way people  were thinking and killed initiative.

So what we agree about then is that some systems gives little opportunities for people and even kill their initiative and shape the way they are thinking. However, maybe that is why you have those experiences from your own country. Maybe groups of people in America in reality have fewer opportunities? Maybe there are something in their local societies that kills initiative and form the way they are thinking? Maybe the Americium melting pot doesn't give equal opportunities for everybody?

Don't think that that is unique for your country. There are a lot of reports from my country that tells the same. Children from educated homes are more stimulated to get an higher education than children from the working class.

However, what we can agree about is that there are people who has a special gift to exploit the system. We see it  very clearly here in Norway with our good social system. We are getting fewer and fewer people working and more and more people on different kind of pensions, even rather young people.

Haroshij

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Re: Conservative gentlemen and a lit..., posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

[This message has been edited by KenC]

Haroshij,
You said, "Maybe the Americium melting pot doesn't give equal opportunities for everybody?" and then, "Children from educated homes are more stimulated to get an higher education than children from the working class."  Isn't this a matter of breeding?  The basic "survival of the fitest"?  The opportunutites are there for everyone, but only a small portion CHOOSE to be motivated enough to take advantage of them.  That motivation usually comes from values learned in the family.
-
I came from a very blue collar family but chose a different path for myself.  I was determined at a very early age to breakout from that level of lifestyle.  Not that there is anything wrong with middleclass, I just wanted more.  Subsiquently, my children are now achiving successes at a much higher level than the average family members.  My standards for success have become their's.  A natural progression as I see it.
KenC

[Robert D]

... in response to equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

You make an interesting point.   Although middle class is no real problem for me.   Lower middle would bother me. My case in point if I may.   My granfather finished the second grade and was a laborer much of his life.   Hid daugher, my mother, finished college, and became a teacher.  With teacher salaries then, we could barely be considered middle class.  (my Mom and Dad divorced when I was young, something good folks did not do in small towns)  But I say this, each and every grand child of my grandfather, finished college and beyond. (My grandfather had one othe daughter and a son that had kids)  Each of them, all 5 of us have post graduate degrees, and some like myself have two post graduate degrees.  We are no longer middle class, but I think we brought my grandfather's strong determined work eithic with us.  And yes with that most anyone can make it here.  It may not be easy for everyone, and harder for some, but most anyone can make it here.

Robert D.

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

I believe you are correct about the family thing.  Why do even 1st generation Asians do so well in school?  Because they know education is vital.  It is one of their "family values".

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: equal opportunities, posted by ChrisNJ on Jan 3, 2003

yep you hit that one on the head.  But I have a twist for you.   Check out 3rd and 4th generation Asians here.  Those from Vietnam for example.  In my city, many are in gangs, drive similar "gang bang" cars, and the police will tell you they do not fear going into housing projects as much as they fear going into many asian neighborhoods.  Many of them I am sorry and sad to say, are more, for lack of a better word, more "americanized" as I was told by  the police recently.  I can remember meeting most Asians in my city 20 years ago.  The were the most polite people and I enjoyed my interations with them.   Their children were later very much the same.  The grandchildren seem a bit different.
  I have one friend from China, who wants to send her child back to China for the last two years of highschool, because she says he has learned too many bad habbits here, and is now lazy, disrespects her and her husband, (something foreign to them)

  Just a thought.
Robert d.

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by Robert D on Jan 3, 2003

Asian organized criminals are more ruthless and a helluva lot smarter than some other 'friends of ours'.  With the exception of the Russians ofcourse.

[Horoshij]

... in response to equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

Hi KenC,

I agree partly with you. I'm having the same experiences as you. I grew up in a family where nobody had higher education. Not because of lack of abilities, but because everybody was needed to get the daily bread. I worked hard myself and got a good education and a good position. However when I look back I see that not all my friends from childhood had the same stimulation as I to make something more out their lives. Their families didn't stimulate them in the same way as mine. So as you say the opportunities are there, but I don't think they are available in the same degree for everybody. You make this to an individualistic approach, I see that the system works different for different groups of people.

Haroshij

[KenC]

... in response to Re: equal opportunities, posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

Haroshij,
"So as you say the opportunities are there, but I don't think they are available in the same degree for everybody."  It is aways easier to follow the status quo than to fight it.  No one said it would be easy, but the opportunities are AVAILABLE.  Again, isn't that the natural order of life?  Greater rewards go to those who choose to put forth a greater effort.  Just as it is possible for a downward mobility too, with a lacking amount of effort to maintain status quo.  Out of 5 children in our family, we make up a perfect bell shape curve, one child was very successful, one was a failure and three fall into various sections of the moderate range.  I think the system is working well.
KenC

[Horoshij]

... in response to Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

KenC,

Then why are most people who get capital punishment black, why are minorities underrepresented in higher education, why are there a growing percentage of illiterates in your country. Most of them are being recruited from the minorities.

Maybe the system works in a way that favours white people? Or are you trying to tell me there are no discrimination in USA?

Haroshij

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

Haroshij,
This will be my last post on this thread as it is getting way off subject of this forum.  I think that the natural tenancies of people is to maintain their status quo.  Unfortunately, the minorities are starting from a lower level than most, so the majority of them will maintain that same low level of lifestyle.  Those that choose to escape their status quo can.  They even have a better opportunity to do so, with admission standards to colleges set lower for minorities.
KenC

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

Intereting point, and I agree we may start an argument if we continue, but I offer this.  In many poor areas of America, the hill country of Tenn, and West Virginia, there are many non minorities that have had difficulty making it in the main stream.  The reasons are too many to speak of.  I agree as to opportunities being better here than anywhere else in the world.  But if you look at the history of much of the western world, you do not find the poverty issue as much an issue as you do in those countries that had a history of slavery and its aftermath. (US for example)  Much of central america experiences little difference economically and educationally, between non minorities and minorities.  South Africa, is another example of institutionalized issues causing long term difficulties for their society. It goes back to the legacy I mentioned, which for some is hard to think of, but if you think of countries like England and France who have long had minorities of the same types as the US, but no slavery, their experience of late and even in the past was very different.   Literacy rates in the southern US among minorities are about the same as for non minorities in many of the poor states, like West Virgina.  I suspect some of the reasons are the same.  In southern Mississippi, if you speak to almost any african american, you will find they are just one generation from share croppers, and only two generations from real discrimination (Jim Crow and the like) so I do not think it is hard to understand why they have not historically done well.   And it also explains the growth in the last 20 years of a larger and ever more prosperous African American middle class.  It is the middle class of any community that contributes most to what is best in our society.   I suggest to you that in 20 years from now, as the percentage of African American population continues to decrease in America, and the population of other minorities, Asians and Hispanics continues to rise a, we will see and end to much of this kind of discussion.  It is not a bad or forbidden discussion, mind you, as some would say.  
   One last note, I wonder who 30 years ago could have predicted the impact of drugs on  large part of our society. It is intereting that it is more of a plague in minority communties, even in American Indian communities.   I worked in social services for a while many years ago, and frankly, many hispanics and african americans are on TV because of the violence associated with drugs in urban america, but there are many suburban whites in less populated areas in the business in a  less competitive drug market.   There is much less crime associated with drugs in those areas as the population is less dense.  But one merely needs to watch Jerry Springer, I am sad to say, to see what little difference there is between minorities living on the edge of our properous society, and non minorities.   (although I still can not figure out how they ever get anyone to be on that show.
   But your post was intereting. And I hope my observations do not upset anyone.

Robert D.

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by Robert D on Jan 3, 2003

...I suggest to you that in 20 years from now, as the percentage of African American population continues to decrease in America, and the population of other minorities, Asians and Hispanics continues to rise a, we will see and end to much of this kind of discussion...

In 40 years we will probably still be having this discussion.  We'll just be having it in another language.

[Horoshij]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: equal opportunit..., posted by ChrisNJ on Jan 3, 2003

In 40 years we will probably still be having this discussion. We'll just be having it in another language.

Maybe you will use another language than English, but I'm quite convinced that at that time we wil speak English here in Scandinavia.

Haroshij