Ray- The priest and the bribe

[JEM]

Ray,

You expressed interest in the priest who takes bribes, here it is. A little backround 1st. I married a beautiful widow with no death certificate {another long story}. we hired a lawyer to file a presumption of death case. The lawyer estimated 6months, it took 15. She charged us $1000 but then wanted more as the case finalized. But of course we had to give extra $ to the Judge, court clerk, some other court official and cant forget the Stenographer. So the actual cost was about $1500. And this case was without complication, challenge, or doubt to my wife's testimony. The Judge went on 3 hour lunch breaks with her friends and didnt work on Monday,Friday and of course the weekends.

Myself,wife and inlaw visited the Cityhall in Caloocan 6 months into the court case and explained our situation. we were told by 2 City hall workers {one was drunk} that we could marry as long as we provided an Affidavit. They prepared an affidavit for us, we filled the required paperwork for a marriage license and waited the required 10 days. It's also worth mentioning that we had to bargain with these pinheads for the price of the chapel. It started at 6000 pesos but after a half hour of our stubborness they agreed to 2000p. They insisted the high price wasn't skin tax but could provide no other explanation. A friend of ours was married in SanFernando for 1000 pesos a week earlier. We then set a date and planned a big reception at my wife's home.

Now the horror begins!! We said our vows, exchanged rings, signed papers, slipped the priest 1000 and had our reception. We later went to Cityhall at 3pm as instructed to pick up our marriage license. And as you can probably guess they wouldn't release it! A higher cityhall official told us he couldn't release our marriage license until our court case was final. After some calm diplomacy there was no other choice but to resort to becoming the ugly American I can be. That didn't work either. So we both left cityhall very depressed and worst of all unmarried. My wife was so upset she couldn't tell her family until weeks later. The only thing we could do was keep our receipts and wait for the court case to finalize. We tried the priest but he told us there was nothing he could do.

Six months later our papers were ready so I flew back to the RP. City Hall remembered us, accepted our receipts didn't ask for extra any $. But they couldn't back date to our origional  wedding day. The final step was for the priest to resign our license. He remembered us, looked at our receipts again but wanted another 500 pesos! I pleaded diplomaticaly, reminded him of the extra 1000p I gave him, argued but this man of GOD wouldn't budge. What could I do at this point? He signed, I gave him 500 and then said a few ugly closing remarks.

So this is all part of my anticorruption stance and may explain my bitterness at times. Fortunately thing are improving for us each day. Beth and I are REALLY married now and I just sent my I-864 to the NVC.  
                        Thats our story
                       to be continued
                            Joe

[Jeff S]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002


I really no nothing about the Philippines and was planning to keep quiet, but do know a considerable amount about doing business in one of the most famous places for bribes: Mexico.

In Mexico, the mordita (little bite) system has been in-place for many decdes. While I commend Vincente Fox for trying to clean it up, the job is enormous since the practice is so well rooted. I do agree with Ray that it's the rich gringos (and Mexicans) who keep it moving in attempts to shortcut the system. Several years ago when I was running trucks of parts and product across the border in Tijuana to support a maquiladora I managed there, we'd get occasional "red light" inspections, supposedly at random, to inspect every item of the cargo and every line of the packing list. Never ONCE did we pass without error, even to the point of saying that a "7" in a serial number on the packing list looked like a "1" or that the packing list says 100 resistors and the bag actually contained 101. The fines for these "smuggling" infractions was somewhere between $750 and $1200, but there was always a way for the inspector to pull a few strings and get it down to $300 if we brought cash. You know what we did, paid the high price by check and made sure all the paperwork was filed properly, even though it delayed teh shipment, sometimes for days. Know why? Because we were only "red lighted" once every year or 18 months or so. Had we paid off the inspector, I suspect we'd start getting redlighted every week. He's have found a cash cow, and started milking it instead of only testing it occasionally.

The same situation exists for the gringo tourists breaking the traffic laws. The cop will take you to the city hall where you can arrange bail of $50, or you can pay him $40 right now (which can usually be negotiated down to $20) and be on your way. Well, the scared tourist just takes care of the cop and that's that, so he supports the practice. If all the gringos chose the "go downtown" option, there wouldn't be as much requests for mordita. It's a vicious cycle. The revenues don't pay enough so that the cops and border patrol agents are paid enough so they go on the take and it reduces legitimate revinues.

While this is fascinating and an important part of the Mexican culture for a gringo businessman or tourist to understand, IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HONESTY OF MEXICAN WOMEN OR THEIR SUITABILITY AS WIVES!" Knowing this about the Mexican culture, I have a Mexican woman who works for me and I have her come clean my house every other Saturday. She's very hard working, scrubs the place immaculately, is happy with whatever I pay her, and my wife and I usually go out to breakfast while she's working and we've never once ever had a piece of jewlery or nickle of cash touched. Now might there be another Mexican women who would take somethig? Sure, but I had no trouble finding an honest one.

This game is about one person finding one person, not about governemnts and cultures. In every society there are Mother Theresas, but likewise there are Charlie Mansons, and everyone in-between.

Just my 2 cents worth.

-- Jeff S.

[Ray]

... in response to Bribes, posted by Jeff S on Mar 15, 2002

I think in the case cited by JEM in this thread, he tried to do something illegal by paying out money to circumvent the system. By doing so, he only helped to perpetuate the “culture of corruption” that he is complaining about. I suspect that his real basis for complaining is not that corruption and bribery exists in the Philippines, but simply that it didn’t work for him when he willingly participated in it.

Also, I agree that to imply that the women in a country where corruption exists will be dishonest to one degree or another, simply because they live there, is sort of silly. Your point that this is about one person finding one person, and not just about governments or cultures, is well taken.

Ray

[Dave H]

... in response to Good points Jeff!, posted by Ray on Mar 15, 2002

Hey Ray,

I only wanted one good woman and happily I found her. She buys me things and lets me keep the change. How can you do better than that! ;o)))

My father-in-law worked within a corrupt system, both in business and politics. Yet he remained uncorrupt and thus poor. However, he was able to feed and educate his family...and sleep at night.

Dave H.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Good points Jeff!, posted by Dave H on Mar 15, 2002

Gee, do you think that just maybe the value system of these Filipinas is more a product of their family upbringing rather than what goes on in Manila? Just a thought...

Ray

[Dave H]

... in response to Good for him!, posted by Ray on Mar 15, 2002

Hey Ray,

That's the way I see it. It's the same way my dad was. I can't even beat someone out of a penny or he'd show up in my dreams. ;o))

Dave H.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Good for him!, posted by Ray on Mar 15, 2002


.. too much right wing whacko thinking there. Don't you know that the poor corrupt individuals are just a product of greedy capitalists extracting their filthy lucre off the sweat of the working classes brow?

Oops, sorry, I've been dealing with the UAW all day.

-- Jeff S.

[JEM]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

Ray,

I respect your opinion. But my god are you employed by the RP government as a spindoctor? (little conspiracy theory there)  And  from reading the archives you have an uncanny way of blaming the victim. The reason we got into all this mess was because of the middleman. The fixer was the drunk cityhall employee!! So many inferences but hey I'm enjoying the sparring. We will definitely have some interesting posts in the near future.

                         PEACE!
                           Joe

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 14, 2002

...specifically which "victims" have I blamed for what and how? Can you direct us to the particular posts to which you refer? I think we need to discuss this if you are going to make such accusations.

No, I don't work for the RP government and I also don't automatically buy into every horror story that I read here. Sometimes the real victim is not the one crying so loudly about being the victim. If you haven't heard both sides of the story, then you haven't heard the story.

Oh, and next time try to hire a sober middleman. You get what you pay for :-)

Ray

[JEM]

... in response to Uh..., posted by Ray on Mar 14, 2002

Ray,

"Free advice" 3-1. And I really dont think you work for the RP government as a spindoctor, I was just joking about that although if there is an opening... Sorry to raise your blood pressure, the accusation crossed the line.

                         PEACE
                          Joe

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Uh..., posted by JEM on Mar 15, 2002

Oh, that "victim"! ROFLMAO!

[Ray]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

Joe,

Thanks for telling your story. If I can make a few comments, based on my own experiences.

If I understand your situation correctly, you had some legal impediments to marriage and you tried to find a way around the long wait for the legal proceedings. I can surely understand your frustration in dealing with the Filipino bureaucracy, but I think there is a right way and a wrong way to approach these things. The “right” way may not necessarily be the moral way or the way we are comfortable with, but it is the way that works in the Philippines. I guess you eventually have to choose whether to follow your own standards or do it the Filipino way. I think Don the Walker explained it very well.

I would have done things a little differently than the way you did. Whether or not your situation requires a little lagay or “bribe” along the way, I have found that it is usually best to have a middleman to handle all the details, preferably someone who knows how the system works and has the necessary contacts. If it’s a family member, they are expected to provide this service for you. If you need to hire someone else (a “fixer”), he will receive a modest “commission” or fee for his services. All you really need to do is provide the necessary funding and he should take care of everything without you being present or even aware of the gory details.

For example, when I went to be married in the Philippines, everything was pretty much pre-arranged by the family before I ever arrived, much like Don the Walker’s experience. There is a first cousin who handles most of the legal matters for the extended family. He is the Clerk of the Court in a neighboring jurisdiction, the former Chief of Police, and he has many high contacts. Because he was the cousin, he was expected to take care of all the arrangements for our marriage license, even though we could have saved him a lot of trouble by applying at the local municipal office. My wife’s family has a lot of influence in the local Catholic Church, so an aunt handled all the arrangements with the church office and pastor where the wedding was to take place. By the time I arrived, all I had to do was show up and sign some papers and go through the required interviews and everything worked smoothly. As far as I know, there were no “bribes” involved anywhere in the process and we paid the standard rate for everything. Like in Don’s case, it was all done with influence and not money.

If I understand correctly from your description of your wedding arrangements, you got married in a chapel, not a church, and the municipal officials controlled the chapel. It sounds like the priest was possibly free-lancing and received a fee for his services. Even if he was acting under the authority of the local bishop, there is a standard and customary fee for most services. The P500 “bribe” that you had to pay to get your marriage contract validated doesn’t seem like an amount that would be asked from someone who was only trying to line his own pockets. Is it possible that the P500 was the standard fee for processing the marriage contract, similar to a fee for providing a certified copy of a baptismal certificate? If he was only trying to gouge you for his own benefit, then I agree with you that it was despicable.

Sometimes we misinterpret things. When I paid the fee for my marriage license, they asked me what my income was. I asked why they wanted to know, and the clerk said she needed it to determine the license fee. She had an official fee chart that based the license fee on your income. I was in the highest bracket, so I paid P401. I have no idea what a poor couple wold have to pay, but I was not charged more because of my nationality, but because of my income level. I can see where a lot of Americans would blow up and call them greedy pin-heads and throw the money in their face and stomp out. I guess what I am trying to say is that things are not always the way they appear to a foreigner. Simple misunderstandings can cause a lot of ill feelings.

I think when you told off the priest over the “bribe” or argued with the city workers about a “skin tax”, you only managed to make your wife loose face and helped deepen the perception of arrogant Americans. I know it made you feel better at the time, and I don’t necessarily blame you, but your wife and her family may think somewhat less of you because of your actions. Causing someone to lose face in public, whether it’s a drunk city office worker or a questionable priest, is a no-no in Filipino society. It doesn’t seem like a big deal to us, but it may be a very big deal to them.

Anyway, congratulations on your wedding. I would love to hear more of your experiences, both good and bad.

Ray

[JephW]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

My brother and his wife accompanied me to the Phils to be best man and sponsor and could only stay a week.  We couldn't pull this off with the big church we wanted to get married in but a friend worked for a judge and we finagled it with him for only the customary fee.

Our marriage cert came through dated ten days after we were actually married.  Now we have two anniversaries.

[Ray]

... in response to We were married after 5 days instead of ..., posted by JephW on Mar 14, 2002

Jeff,

My wife’s cousin, the Clerk of the Court, said we could have the 10-day waiting period waived by the judge and get the license in one day for a standard court fee of P2,000. He did recommend against it though because he personally knew of one case where an American had a lot of problems with the embassy when they were processing the wife’s visa papers. In that case, the judge backdated the license application date to 10 days prior to the marriage. The problem came in a when the consular officer noted that he had not yet arrived in the Philippines when the license application was processed.

In your case, I think it was correct to change the date of the marriage so that there would be no problems at the embassy, assuming that you were still there on the supposed date of the wedding. Also, I understand that some Filipino attorneys will offer to backdate the paperwork themselves to get around the 10-day wait, but it supposedly isn’t legal unless a judge does it in an official capacity.

Ray

[The Walker]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

I agree with both sides. You will find that money can move mountains in the Philippines, sometimes, and at others you will run into public servants as honest as an Archangel with a backbone made of stainless steel.

There are no bones about it, things can be had in the Philippines for money. But even more important than money is "pull". There could have been problems with our wedding but they never cropped up. Why? Uncle had big-time pull. I was willing to throw around money but it just wasn't necessary. I think Uncle knows every skeleton in every closet. With enough pull things move as smooth as silk.

For those who don't remember, Vicky and I were married in a chapel on family grounds in the countryside. The priest was gracious and helpful. While Vickly and I honeymooned on a private yacht cruise of the Philippines Uncle had everything taken care of. In fact, we could have cut short our honeymoon to three days but I wouldn't have traded that time for anything.

I paid for the wedding feast as was custom but it is ridiculously cheap to feed people in the Phils. Except for a gratuity to the priest paid for by me but delivered by Cousin, I had no palms to grease. Our wedding was smallish by Philippine standards for that sort of family but the reception was sizeable. It was a measure of Uncle's vanity in what he could do and see done.

Later I found out that Uncle had called in a few markers and had taken care of all exceptions. Vicky's first marriage had been annuled by her husband (she cannot bear children) and that would normally require lots of time and/or bribes to get straight even with the correct papers. Changing Vicky's last name and all that on passport/visas was also done quickly and quietly.

So there is both advantage and disadvantage to a third-world economy. If you are on the "pull" side of things (or don't mind throwing money around), it is wonderfully smooth and efficient. If not, it can be either ugly or obstrucive, or both. Personally I think you got caught up in a "worst case scenario" where everything goes wrong at once. Although I do admit you should have possibly planned things a little better. But that can be chalked up to inexperience on your part with third-world realities. In any case where there is the least abiguity, expect trouble. Even if everything is absolutely normal, expect what we would call trouble. Things just operate differently in third-world nations. The judge, for example, probably had to have another calling on the side to support his/her family and send his/her kids to college so he/she could only give so much time to judicial matters. The judges in the US complain about wages, you can imagine what it is like in the Philippines. Especially with the financial shape they've been in lately. Third-world economies and habits are far different from ours. Not necessarily worse, just more open.

But it does bother even me about the priest.

-Don