/

[Pordzhik]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

is a contradiction.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Last disagreement:

"Send in the Clones"

You said:

"There are some guys that if you cloned them into four different but identical men and you had them start writing to only one woman but a different woman for each man - all four would attempt to marry a different woman. It would be whoever was closest to them in the process at the time they were ready, who passed their check list of qualities and attributes. So, the same guy cloned into four guys marries four different women with each clone and the ordinal all claiming that this is the one and only women for them. "

First off -- what an interesting hypothesis! Hats off to you for original thinking!

However...

I submit that although you are correct -- each man would find a different woman (although it is possible that not all would be successful) I don't think that any of them would have any higher likelihood of success... do you? All your (science fiction) example illustrates is that there is no "ONE WOMAN for ONE MAN" in reality.

I accept that. I agree completely.

So... taking that out... what's your point?

What if one guy did the WOVO and one guy did the "casting method?"

Do you honestly think that clone A will stand a better chance of having a long and happy marriage than clone B?

I don't think so.

Do you?

I have one more disagreement with your premise... but I will save it for another time. It is late here, and I have a certain Brunette in Kherson to write yet...

[MarkInTx]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

My next disagreement:

You said:

"I suspect that their view is to some degree a product of their own experience that resulted in a wonderful success. If any of these guys had gone over to meet one lady each trip and success was not the result lets say after two or three attempts --- a certain percentage would see this differently. That percentage I would bet would go up with each failed WOVO trip."

You might be correct -- the more times you "fail" at something, the less likely you are to believe in its validity... but that ignores the larger fact, and in my opinion, the most important thing I have learned from this board.

If you surveyed the guys who are STILL SEARCHING and asked them: "What makes the most sense to you?" I think a (small) majority will agree with you. See as many women as you can. That makes sense.

Why?

Two reasons: From a time/money effectiveness standpoint it makes sense.

But, the LARGER reason that this method is so accepted, I think, is that it has been pushed heavily in this forum for some time.

And, it might be useful to stop and consider -- at least for a moment -- who the strongest and most vocal proponent of this method was? And then ask yourself this: If I were an Agency owner, which way would be better for ME... To have a guy WOVO -- where he really won't need my help or services at all once I get him a flat... or to have a guy have to organize and arrange meeting with thirty women -- with all of the logistical nightmares that implies?

I realize I'll draw fire for even suggesting that... And, FWIW, I'm not saying that this was the only reason this method was "pushed" -- but you have to admit that PERHAPS there was SOME vested interest... don't you?

Why is it everyone is willing to say: "It's the economy, stupid" when it comes to the girl's motivation, but not the agency's?

But even THAT isn't really important...  WHY the guys who are searching have embraced this method isn't as important as this:

Who do you want to use for your "model"... the guys who are still searching? Or the guys who have found?

And then consider this:

You mentioned that Ken was a WOVO guy... (So am I, and I admit my bias). However, so is -- if I remember -- Patrick, Oatmeal, Stan, in fact... MOST that I can think of. The only guy who comes to mind that had success the other way was Jack. (I'm sure I'm mistaken in that... but he's the only guy I can think of.)

Sure, a lot of guys have done the WOVO, and failed. But so have a lot of guys who did the "Casting Call" method. I'll bet I can name as many of the latter as you can the former -- starting with the guy you think has the best analytical mind of anyone who has ever been involved in this. You think you can succeed where he failed? He doesn't.

BUT... I think (though I could be wrong) if you took a poll of the SUCCESSES (and I exclude myself from that group... as someone said, getting engaged is easy) from this board... I'll bet that you would find that by far and away, the MOST successful method is the WOVO.

Why is that?

Are all of these guys just lucky and defying the odds?

Or is there a reason for it?

[Stan B]

... in response to Disagreement #2, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Actually I did go to meet just one and I knew that things weren't going to work out the moment we met. I then was introduced to Maryna and we were engaged 6 days later. We both thought of the possibilities after the 1st night we met and after 3 days we knew that we were going to be together.
And if it didn't happen to me, I would never have believed that it was possible for it to happen like it did. I know that I got lucky and I could've gone over a dozen more times and never come close to having the same results.

[LP]

... in response to side note, posted by Stan B on Oct 19, 2002

.....lol, nah...forget it.

Congrats Stan, best wishes. ;-)

[MarkInTx]

... in response to side note, posted by Stan B on Oct 19, 2002

LOL... OK... I stand corrected...

Wow... Glad you never suggested your "method" for finding a woman...

"Yeah... go over to meet someone, dump her... and fall in love. Works every time!"

;-)

But, seriouly... congrats.

I'll take Lucky over a System any day!

[MarkInTx]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Greg,

I spin off each of my disagreements as a different thread, so you can ignore one (or all of them) if you think its irrelevant.

First: Your analogy is not (IMHO) accurate.

You said:

"If you were in the USA and you heard of a party where there would be many single women, would one consider it unnatural and forced to go and see who was there and if one met a lady that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Not at all..."

However, that is not an accurate analogy of what KenC described as a casting call.

To correct your analogy, it should be stated like this:

If you were in the USA and someone you hired arranged a party for many single women, who came for the sole purpose of meeting you, and who you interviewed to see if there was "chemistry" so you could select one "finalist" that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Would this seem unnatural and forced?"

I submit that THIS is closer to what actually happens with the "Go and see many (as high as 100) women."

And I submit that, yes, this is indeed forced and unnatural.

[Oscar]

... in response to Disagreement #1, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I can only say Mark, that it never felt un-natural or forced to me meeting many women (about 25 per trip) on trips.  Now, I never did a social, I always met one woman at a time, but I always completely enjoyed the process.  I needed to understand these very UN-American women better, scam-proof myself, etc., to know what to look for (and what to run away from), in these women.

I think I have come to the conclusion personally that whether a man meets one woman or many women, that the guy will be successful if/when he is READY, in HIS life, to make that committment to a woman.  There are too many good, willing women there who just want a good husband for it to be their fault!

I will say though, that if it were my son going to the FSU to look for a wife, I have to say that my advice to him would be-  get to know these women who will be a completely new experience for you, from a completely different culture.  Meet some, date some, come to understand them, both the good and the bad, then make an "educated" decision you can feel confident about...

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Disagreement #1, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

I met more than one woman, too.

I just didn't do it on the same trip.

I met women in Russia, Brazil, and Ukraine.

But when I went to "meet" Victoria, she was the only one I met. I didn't need to meet anyone else.

I also want to stress this: I knew her before I "met" her. That's not some sappy line from a stupid song.

I think that when it is done right, letters are a very good means of getting to know someone. ESPECIALLY someone from a different culture, with a language barrier. You can consider your words carefully, and analyze your thoughts without the pressures of trying to express complex ideas in a short period of time with little more than a dictionary.

That's the one thing that is left out in the WOVO method - if you spend the time to WW (Write Well) then you you are "meeting" a friend -- not a stranger...

To each his own.

I just get emails all of the time from guys who are meeting one lady, and they don't want to say anything on the board because they don't want to take the flak. And I, personally, know of three success stories (well.. OK...engaged, they are not married yet) that haven't been published here.

The WOVO method remains, I am convinced, the most successful.

That doesn't make it the best for everyone. It doesn't guarantee success. I am merely speaking of statistics that are rarely talked about.

I think it has the highest success rate.

Well... Actually, the "Live there for awhile on business and meet someone" probably has the highest percentage rate. But that's not practical for most...

[Jski]

... in response to To Clarify, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I agree with Mark on the letters.  In my search I have enjoyed the time spent writing to these women.  Some letters have been quite lengthy and have taken a long time to compose, but the end result was being able to express myself and really ask the questions that I wanted to.  
I have been able to narrow down who I wanted to continue to communicate with until I had a list of one.  I may have passed over a great woman because her response to my 4 page letters was less than a paragraph, but I'll take that chance as I want someone who will be able to communicate with me and express themselves.
I'm new to the board, but not new to searching.  It was an on again, off again process for me for several years.  Job commitments, heavy travel schedule and dating AW's in between (not to mention a short marriage where amazingly enough I remain good friends with the ex).  

I used the letter writing to find the one that I wanted to visit, so for me its WMNDWOVO, WM (write many), ND (Narrow Down), WO (Write One), VO (Visit One).  I imagine I'll catch some flak for my VO approach and that's fine.  Its a forum to express opinions and everyone has one.  One should consider the wisdom of those that have "been there, done that" along with their own opinions, but in the end do what's best for them and what they feel comfortable with.  Each search is a personal experience and I aplaud those here that are willing to share their experiences and answer questions for those that are not that far along in the process.  I would never imagine sitting on a message board detailing my courtship of my AW dating and marriage, but somehow the RW is different and though approaches to this may differ, the common bond between us is the search.

I will offer up my own experiences in the Visit One (VO) approach as they happen.  I will be leaving for Kiev in Jan and will let you know how it goes between now and then.  If it works, fantastic!  If it doesn't, well then I had a good vacation with a friend who writes me daily, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.  I may be fortunate that my lady has a computer, speaks English fairly well and loves to write.  The age gap (24 / 36) was a small concern when I started, but we're both fine with that and share many common interests as well as having daughters the same age.

Keep up the postings guys, there's a wealth of nuggets of wisdom in every thread.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: To Clarify, posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

The mail is so S-L-O-W (at least to S. America, don't know about E. Europe) that's its really only good for the first contact or two. But if you guys care to modify your stand to say "correspond via email and then phone calls" to really get to know ONE in particular, THEN travel to meet that one, I'll be 100% with you.  

Step 1) Contact several
Step 2)Narrow down to two or three for 'serious correspondence'
Step 3) After a while, further narrow down to one, continue corresponding, get to know her.
Step 4) Travel to meet that ONE.

True, you run the risk of "there was no 'chemestry' when we finally met"...but if you did it right and really got to know her, I think that is a small risk. You (or she) should realize if there is anything 'wrong' while you are in step three. If (and ONLY if) everything still feels 'right' to both of you after some time in step three, you take step four, otherwise you go back to step two with one of the others. The two great advantages of this method are that when you finally DO travel, the lady knows that you came to see HER, instead of on a "hunting expedition" and since you are going to see someone who is expecting you (and by now, we would think that she is serious about you as well) you won't be "all alone" in a strange place.  

One thing to be aware of, don't stay in step three TOO long or the girl will give up on you. I lost one that way, 2000 was a bad year, I was in the hospital twice and out of work for four months...in other words, flat broke and simply never could get the dinero together to make the trip, so eventualy I had to go back to step one, but everything is fine now, went back through steps one through four and now am in step five, waiting on some paperwork which should be ready in about 2 weeks and then will petition for her K-1.

Now, other guys can do it differently and I'm not saying they are wrong, just that you have to do it the way that is right for YOU and the "one woman trip" is what feels right to a lot of us.

[Jski]

... in response to 99% agree, posted by Michael B on Oct 19, 2002

I should clairify, yes its via e-mail.  I have only used the post office for pictures and greeting cards.  The e-mail with the one I've narrowed it down to is up to several times a day and the phone calls are weekly.  She says I'm her "alarm clock" on Sunday mornings :-)

Sorry to hear about the hospital stay but it sounds like its working well for you now.  Congrats on getting to that stage and ready for the K-1!

[MarkInTx]

... in response to 99% agree, posted by Michael B on Oct 19, 2002


Yes... I will give you that.

I cannot imagine doing this via Snail Mail.

When I say: "Write" I mean through the internet. Victoria and I still write each other every day. We have sent hundreds of letters back and forth -- this would NOT have been possible if we used the Pony Express of US Mail.

And, at some point, phone calls also add a lot.

So, I agree with you... 100%

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: To Clarify, posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

WMNDWOVO -- The only thing I don't like about this is the length!

Yes... I agree completely!

I also agree with KenC when he pointed out that the "MOB" dating is not very much different than meeting someone on the internet here. (Which I have also done).

After you have written to a lady here, and then met -- and done that a lot -- you will find very little difference when you write someone in Russia and go to meet her.

After about three months on MatchMaker.com, I was able to tell if the woman and I would "hit it off" after our emails. I often went on the date, anyway... just because I was bored. But I would know going in whether we had any chance...

The only surprise, usually, was what she looked like. Some women used VERY old photos.

But if we had exchanged mroe than ten emails, I pretty much had a read on her personality before we even met. I don't think I was ever surprised.

BTW... the fact that you are writing to a woman who has internet and speaks English is not "lucky"... it's smart.

One question: Does this lady have a child?

[Jski]

... in response to WMNDWOVO -- The only thing..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Yes she has a daughter the same age as mine (4).  In fact, my daughter looked at the first photo she sent of her's and said "That's me".  They do look very similar, only my daughter is taller.

Though I can only stay for 10 days on this trip, at least I have enough miles on American to go back several times whether its to continue with her or see others as the case may be. With the Trans-Atlantic bonus miles right now, I'll build enough for four more trips in the next 6 weeks of business travel :-)  The only part I'm not looking forward to is the 10pm to 10am layover in London on the return leg.  I've spent enough time in London airports and its not my favorite.  I can't complain much though as all I paid was the $41.XX in taxes for the ticket.