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Author Topic: Thoughts at my Journey's End FWIW (LONG)  (Read 4636 times)
MarkInTx
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« on: June 04, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

OK... this is some tired ramblings... my brain still isn't over jetlag (and everything else going on)

But as I look back over "My Search" here are some things I think I think...

[NOTE: What I am saying is simply what works for me. EVERYONE is different, and must decide on their own path!]

The one conclusion I have come to in all of this is that you cannot change who you are. You must do what you feel comfortable with.

I think it’s important to take an honest look at yourself.

I get very frustrated when I hear men say: “Just go over and meet someone on the street!” Or, “Walk into an agency, and just line up dates…” Or… whatever…

I contend that if you cannot do that here, then you cannot do it there.

Have you ever walked up to a beautiful American woman and asked her out? No? Well then how will you do it when the woman doesn’t even speak English?

Don’t kid yourself, being an American didn’t turn you into a movie star over night. You are still you. The woman may be flattered or even fascinated by an American, but *you* still look at the same you in the mirror every day. You will walk onto the streets of Kiev, or Moscow, or whatever, and you will feel very much the same as you do in America. And that includes all of the insecurities and hang-ups you have here.

She may not know you from an international man of mystery… but you know that you are just you. And if you can’t fool yourself, you’re not going to fool anyone else.

As much as I try to pretend I am Pierce Brosnan reincarnated when I hit the Passport Control center… I am not.

So, the one piece of advice that I would give anyone is… before you listen to a lot of gibberish from someone else on here (especially if that person hasn’t even found anyone for themselves yet!) is the same advice that Shakespeare gave: “Above all else, to thine own self be true…”

As for me...

I asked a stranger out once in my life. I did it just to see what would happen. (She said yes… we had two dates, and I found out she was a complete flake…) That’s not me.

Take a tour? Go to “Socials” and flirt with a hundred beautiful women? Yeah… right… as long as I affect a British accent and start drinking martinis shaken and not stirred… but then what happens after the social, and I am still just me? Nope… a social won’t work for me. I hate “Dating Parties.”

A marriage agency? Nope. I would rather sit through a IRS tax audit than sit through another “Marriage Agency” interview. I have done it now three times: Once in St. Petersburg, twice in the states. It’s horrible. I feel like I have walked into a 12 step program. “Hi, my name is Mark, and I am a dating loser…” “Hi Mark. We’re here to help you…”

So… what does that leave? Well, hmmm… not much, really.

The question that drove me is: What can I do that is "normal" for me...

Of course, one thing you have to adjust, I’ve found, is your concept of what “normal” is.

What was normal 20 years ago is not normal today. The way my parents met is just not practical today. Cities have grown and lives have become busier. Most of us have already adjusted our definitions. That is why Internet Dating sites –- once a strange thing only for nerds and losers -- are very accepted today.

What happens on an internet site? You see a few pictures, and read about how a person describes themselves. From there you write to them, if they are interested, they write back, and after a few emails, you ask them for a date. From there, the “normal” dating scenario kicks in. In many ways, internet dating is far superior to other methods. (How many men really met the love of their life in a singles bar?)

So, a few years ago, I began joining internet dating sites, and I had quite a bit of success. I found attractive, intelligent women who I dated. In fact, I met my (now) ex-wife that way. And, that wasn’t all bad. We had about as good a marriage that ends in a divorce, as you can have. (There’s a strange concept…)

So, when I take stock of who I am, and what is comfortable to me, and I apply it to finding a woman from a foreign country, I really only had two options: Answer her ad, or place one of my own.

I did both.

Writing letters to beautiful women I found on internet sites did not prove to be very successful for me. I think my over all “return rate” on letters I sent out was somewhere in the thirty percent  range. (Meaning that I wrote a letter to her, and she actually wrote me back.) And, not one of the ladies I wrote to from a “catalog” made it past a few letters with me. Sometimes, I ended the correspondence, but usually, she just drifted away. I feel this is due to the enormous amount of mail she was probably getting – which is one of the biggest problems with the catalog route, to my mind.

So, that pretty much left the idea of a personal ad.

I had tried it with mixed success in the past. When Jack placed an ad for me in Ukraine before, the ad was not nearly specific enough, and I was inundated with letters and emails. I got about 300 letters. They came in for months after the ad had been run. If all I wanted was an ego boost brought about by a large number of responses, then this was a success. However, if what I wanted was a woman I was interested in getting to know better, and perhaps marry… it was a bitter disappointment.

Out of all the responses, there were perhaps three who interested me. And, after wading through 297 “no ways” I didn’t even have enough optimism left to answer those three. So, I answered none of them. This may sound strange, but I cannot express how depressing it was to go to the mailbox and get four letters or so, every day, and when you open them up, they were women who were nothing like you were interested in. And, I am not just speaking in terms of beauty. I had women in their fifties writing me, even though I specified an age cut-off at 35. I had women write me in Russian, even though I asked for the woman to speak English. Women who were, simply, nothing like I asked for in my ad.

It was a good experience for me in a way, because it taught me what the beautiful women in the catalogs go through. (Can you imagine the number of men writing to them? Do you think that these men are bothering to read her profile? Don’t be so critical of a woman who is so discouraged by the process that she doesn’t write you back… you can’t know what it is like for her….)

But it was also an experience I didn’t care to repeat.

When I went to St. Petersburg, Jack placed another ad for me. This ad was much more specific, and (I think) a little elitist. But it produced the desired effect: I had a much smaller response sampling, and they were almost all interesting. It was from this ad that I met Maria, and those who were on the board a year ago, and read my trip report, knows that Maria was a wonderful, sincere lady… but she just wasn’t right for me.

I did, however, learn a very important thing from my St. Petersburg experience. If you want sincere women to respond, your ad must include a very important phrase: “I am coming to (insert city) in (insert month).” I.e.: “I am coming to St. Petersburg in March…” I think this, more than anything, led to my success on my St. Petersburg campaign. I also answered some ads, in addition to the personal ad. My response rate was somewhere around 80% for these. Again, the fact that my letter said I had a plane ticket to St. Petersburg (which was true, btw) made a difference.

So, what about my ad that finally produced the result I wanted?

I now post it in its entirety. I don't think this is a "Magic Ad". But I think there are a couple of important items about it. Here it is:

=========================================================
HELLO! I am coming to Ukraine in March

I am a successful American man in search of a beautiful, young woman. She dreams of a secure and happy life with a special man who will love her forever. Her young child is welcome. If this might be you, reply (in English) to:

XXXXXXXXX@hotmail.com
===========================================================

This ad ran in about three different newspapers in Ukraine. I think it cost me about $50. (I included a picture).

This post has gone on long enough, but I wanted to talk about about why I chose the personal ad, and why I liked it so much.

This ad drew about twenty responses over all. Three were of interest, although only one really caught my eye... and, eventually, my heart...

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juio99
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Thoughts at my Journey's End  FWIW (LONG..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 4, 2002

Mark, I am not trying to be critical of you or your post, but I am somewhat confused.

You said:  "When Jack placed an ad for me in Ukraine before, the ad was not nearly specific enough, and I was inundated with letters and emails. I got about 300 letters."

Then you said: "When I went to St. Petersburg, Jack placed another ad for me. This ad was much more specific, and (I think) a little elitist. But it produced the desired effect: I had a much smaller response sampling, and they were almost all interesting."

Then your third ad: "HELLO! I am coming to Ukraine in March
I am a successful American man in search of a beautiful, young woman. She dreams of a secure and happy life with a special man who will love her forever. Her young child is welcome. If this might be you, reply (in English) to:
XXXXXXXXX@hotmail.com"

So presumably this third ad was similar to your second ad (which was much more specific as you said) and overcame the problem of the first ad (which was not nearly specific enough).

So my confusion stems from my perception that your third ad was about as 'unspecific' as one can get.

And, for instance your first ad attracted responses from 50ish ladies when you had stated a cut off of 35 years.  Now presumably your second ad didn't have this problem (only 20 responses) yet you didn't even state an age cutoff.  Any lady who does not know she is above age 35 will certainly not know that she is not a 'young woman.'

So I applaud your success, but I don't see how the above suggestions and procedures led to the success or should I say how they overcame the initial problems.

JR

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MarkInTx
Guest
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Confused!!, posted by juio99 on Jun 4, 2002

I can only speculate why this one was successful. It may be, as you suggest, simply luck. However, there are a couple of points, I think are worth noting...

First, I specifically said "Beautiful". This is not a trivial thing. I think a lot of ads are afraid to say this.

I also specifically said: "Young woman". No woman who is 50 considers herself young. (In fact, Victoria tells me that the translation of my ad said: "Very Young Woman", and she almost did not respond to me because she thought "I am not very young... but I will write him anyway...")

Also, I specifically said: "Your young child"... Most women 40 years old and beyond do not have young children.

Then, I did not include a postal address... I only included an email address. This will rule out a lot of women. I am sure it will rule out some very good and sincere women, however, I decided that anyone I was to correspond with would have to have access to the Internet, because I just don't have the patience to wait ten days between each letter.

Finally, I said "Reply in English". This will eliminate a lot of women who either do not know English at all, or who don't want to spend the time translating their responses. But, again a personal preference, I didn't want to communicate through a translator.

One thing that should be noted is that I had a word limit that I had to work within on my ad. I can't remember what it was, but I think it was about 60 words. I would have been more specific if I could have been.

I am not suggesting that this ad is a perfect boiler plate. I am merely trying to be as specific as possible about what worked for me.

I do not rule out Providence... I know I was fortunate to have found her at all.

But I would be remiss if I did not pass along whatever I know...

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juio99
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Glad you asked, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 4, 2002

Mark, thanks for your reply.  Again, I am not trying to hassle you, but it still is just not adding up.

You said:  "Finally, I said "Reply in English". This will eliminate a lot of women who either do not know English at all, or who don't want to spend the time translating their responses."

But look back at your original post where you got 300 replies.  You say there that you asked for English also.

You said: "I also specifically said: "Young woman". No woman who is 50 considers herself young."

But look back at your original post.  You stated a cut off of 35 years and got replies from 50ish ladies.  You say no woman who is 50 considers herself young; but yet a 50 year old lady thinks she is 35???

Now the beautiful part, I am not so sure of.  I tend to agree with Oscar that they might all think they are beautiful or something along that line.

I remember one of the ladies I met who was not much above a 5 telling me "Russian women are the prettiest in the world."  Another who was sort of beetchy told me, "Russian women are very popular (world wide) and make the best wives."  I think they are all reading the agency hype (like most men) and are starting to believe it themselves.

Perhaps your best screen (in terms of the finest filter) was the requirement for e-mail answer.

And I also am distraught over the words limitation that seem to exist for these ads.  When and if I place an ad, I want to be very specific about many things (height and weight, education, etc.) and there won't be enough room.  I wonder why they won't allow larger ads as long as they get paid by the word or some such.

Thanks again for your efforts to help all by 'baring your soul' and telling your procedures.

JR


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MarkInTx
Guest
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Not convinced, posted by juio99 on Jun 5, 2002


Not trying to convince you...

My basic advice is: Be specific, and be elitist. Don't be afraid of coming off a little stuck up. If you don't, you'll be deluged.

Your actual wording will vary (and should).

A couple of items:

There is a difference between saying: "She should speak English" and "Reply in English."

It isn't just a nuance... there is a BIG difference there.

The fifty year old women thing...

Take the extreme away... look at the 38, 39, 40 year old woman. You say you want an age range from 25-35, and she is 40, she might respond, anyway, thinking you weren't hard and fast on the age range... especially is she sees my age is 41. She may think... he said to 35... but I am still younger than he is.

I still think that "Young woman" discourages that somewhat. (Especially when it got translated 'VERY YOUNG' -- LOL)

You are probably right, though... the biggest screener is the email address.

I think the internet users are going to tend to be younger, better educated, and more likely to speak English.

BTW, according to the one that matters, Victoria, it was my smile that sold the whole thing, so don't spend too much on the wording ...

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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to You are a tough one :-), posted by MarkInTx on Jun 5, 2002

Knowing what I know now, I would never go over to the FSU without running some personal ads.
This last trip was the first time I have used an ad and am so glad I did.
When you specify an age range, say "25-35", you will without a doubt get some women who are 19 and some who are 45!  And yes, they ALL think they are beautiful!  It certainly helps to be specific.  Jack had his people run my ad in Dnepropetrovsk and although we got it in too late really (my fault), it was still successful!  All it takes is one very sincere woman to make it all worth while!  My girl said she read my ad, saw my photo and said to herself "this is my man"! LOL!
The beautiful part is that you will likely end up (as I did) with a fantastic woman who has never set foot in an agency and has no interest in doing so.. I had gotten so tired of women from agencies.  I know there are many good girls in agencies but I found so many to have been so badly spoiled by foreign men etc..  It was an absolute breath of fresh air to find a woman who was not an agency girl..  But you will never find this type of girl unless you either run an ad or are lucky enough to just run into one on the street..

I cannot say enough about ads..  I put a little phrase at the end of mine that said "if you do not write, how will we find each other?".  My girl said she kept thinking about that and finally decided to reply.. ;-)

I would HIGHLY recommend that you have a local contact for the women to call or write to about your ad.  Many will not reply if you just put a foreign address or an email address.  If there is a local phone number and address where they can call or drop in, many more will respond..

Oscar    

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juio99
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to About Ads-, posted by Oscar on Jun 5, 2002

Your words and advice are very logical and make good sense.  I have saved them for future reference.

JR

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juio99
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to You are a tough one :-), posted by MarkInTx on Jun 5, 2002

1
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Oscar
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Glad you asked, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 4, 2002

I have yet to find a woman in the FSU who did not consider herself "beautiful" whether she was or not!  I found that very strange!  They all seem to think they are... at least that was my experience..

Oscar

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JR
Guest
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Glad you asked, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 4, 2002

.
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MarkInTx
Guest
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to how old is Victoria? n/t, posted by JR on Jun 4, 2002

asd
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JR
Guest
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to 31   n/t, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 5, 2002

down below in your post. Very nice picture of the two of you. Best of luck Smiley)

I did it differently, but each man must decide what is best for himself.

Peace

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MarkInTx
Guest
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to I forgot to mention, posted by JR on Jun 5, 2002

Thanks...

Did you check out the new ones on the web page? I got the B/Ws of her back, and I am really happy with them.

I agree... everyone will do this their own way...

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BrianN
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to 31   n/t, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 5, 2002

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wilmc
Guest
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Thoughts at my Journey's End  FWIW (LONG..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 4, 2002

MarkinTx:

Very helpful, well done!
Thank you.

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