A dose of reality

[golfman]

After following this list for 2 months or so I still don't believe that what I am reading is really true. Come on guys, humor me and tell me it isn't that bad out there because truthfully I'm not sure who to believe. I'm a divorced man, 49 years old and have been looking for a soul mate for the last 2 and a half years, maybe more if you count the time I was still married and looking. My first marriage was a mess and both of us were to blame, it is now water under the bridge. I kind of stumbled upon this Russian women thing after a co-worker signed up with a dating company and actually ended up getting married! This guy is (was?) a total dork who tried to date the entire secretary pool and failed. He would buy shirts and slacks from close out outlets by the dozen, all the same color and size. A nice guy, but a chick repellant if you know what I mean. So anyhow he signs up for a tour and a year and a half later he is married to a 25 year old "lady" and the quotes are for a reason.

He (47 years old FWIW) brings her to the past Xmas dinner and there is no doubt she is a knockout, every eye was on her and every wallet was open if you get my drift. Of course he looks like her father, and some say grandfather, but I wouldn't go that far. She ends up hanging out with some of the daughters of his co-workers, all teenagers, because she seems to have more in common with them than with her husband or his friends. It was real obvious because the company gave out Fur bees (talking dolls for those of you without kids) to the children and she seemed intrigued with them. Anyhow she was gone for the entire night playing Limbo and dancing the Macarena while her semi-geriatric husband mostly sat and watched, although he tried to join in on several occasions, he just looked out of place and seemed to prefer telling those of us at the same dinner table what a fantastic wife she is.

It was very embarrassing for all of us sitting at his table to say the least.

Ok, so let's send my co-worker to the "oddball"  chute and get on with it.
I admit he is a strange one, but yet from what I am seeing here he seems to have a lot of company.

First off, I don't have any trouble at all finding dates with nice, slim, attractive American women and in fact I have so many women knocking at my door I don't even have the time to deal with them all. I am very selective in the type of women I will date and while I am certainly no Don Juan, I find that I have no troubles at all making friends with attractive women.

I don't know what you *men* are doing wrong, but it must be major because none of my friends seem to have problems either and again we are not rich nor are we Don Juan's. Women are everywhere and they are not the fat, worn out fem nazis that I see mentioned on this and other dating sites. The militants are out there for certain but they are really few and far between in comparison to nice girls and I have traveled all over the country on business so my experience is wide.

In fact, if you do some research, you will find that the feminist movement is so small in number that it doesn't even show up on the radar screen and that goes for the disgusting gay/lesbian movement as well.

Of course the media does not want you to know about that because they are on the liberal side as well.

If I might suggest a very good book to read about how twisted the media can be is:

Bias
By Bernard Goldberg

It's an Expose' written by a 30 year veteran executive of CBS News and has some amazing insights into  how our media is twisted.

As an example: Guess who CBS goes to talk to when "women's issues/rights" are headlined in the news?
NOW!
Of course we all know how unbiased they are!

But I digress here so back to the topic.

Of course at 49 if you want a 25year old then you WILL have a problem, and even if you don't on the first date you most certainly will later on because you will have ZERO in common with her.

And this lack of common interests will only get worse as you progress into old age and she progresses into the prime years of her life.

Do you honestly want a 50 something year old lady changing your diapers?

I sure as heck don't!!!

Do you want a lady supporting you when you retire and in effect live off her income+retirement?

I don't.

I just don't get it so educate me.

Exactly where are the men here looking for dates?

I find attractive, available women everywhere.

The supermarket, laundry, movie rental stores and my favorite the Motor Vehicle office. But NEVER the women working there! There are wonderful, sexy, lovely,availible women waiting for a nice guy to stop and talk to them. Again I am not talking about Oprah throwbacks but nice single attractive women just waiting for a nice guy to ask them to dinner.

I am currently dating a wonderful lady who I am considering popping the question to, but only after I get this MOB thing out of my system once and for all. I see the dating advertisements and of course I am interested, but at the same time my good sense and common sense stop me and say, it is too good to be real and only a desperate fool would get hooked up in such an endeavor. My lady is single, never married, 36 years old and a dead ringer for Goldie Hawn.

She is also intelligent, speaks my language as well as 2 others and shares a culture and goals in common. We have been dating for a year and a half and I get to see and understand more about her with every date.

These kinds of women are everywhere, but they are selective as well and are not going to date some shlump because they don't have to. They have their calendar's filled with dates from men who are interesting, humorous, have goals a future and are positive about life.

It's only the fat loser women that you find desperate for dates. The quality women are everywhere, but you have to be ready to prove to them why you have the magic and their current boyfriend doesn't.
It is a survival game for sure and I suspect that many men who deep down know they can't measure up take the easy way out and find a MOB.

As far as easy is concerned, all you are doing is trading the psychological nightmare for a logistical one meaning you can point and choose and not get rejected but the paperwork is going to be a nightmare. Paperwork is antiseptic and will not tell you the truth. It will not stand you up or choose a different beau. Maybe that's the attraction to MOB's I don't know.

I'll admit I have been lured by the mystique of international dating and the excitement and possible ramifications of such a relationship, but I have semi-opted out at the last minute because I feel that I have come to my senses.

I will warn you ahead of time, I have some very extreme opinions on what my searching has uncovered and if you don't want to hear what others think of this operation, deep six the message now and save yourself from agony because I am going to tell it from the perspective of a man's point of view, and I am not going to pull punches to avoid damaging a fragile state of mental awareness.

First of all these women want to come to America and that is the primary reason for them signing up with such an agency.

Why else would a woman come to an Anastasia or European Connections social?  Do you believe that she expects you to move there to live with her? That makes absolutely no sense at all and even it were true, she could surely find a man of her own cultural background that is already living there to marry.

She is interested in YOU or American men in general because she wants a ticket to the USA and that is the cold hard truth.

Infatuation occurs in a week of face to face contact, but true love rarely does the same.

Women don't fall in love after a couple of brief meetings and maybe some email no more than men do. It is a business deal, a tit for tat if you will and that is the honest truth.

Try asking a USA lady to marry you after 3 dates and see what happens. Unless she has some situation which would financially or emotionally make marriage beneficial to her (like 3 kids and a welfare check), it is doubtful you will get a yes.

Which brings us to the next fallacy which is the low caliber of Russian men.

If this were really true as a general statement, why are 99 percent of all marriages between couples from the same country meaning FSU?

This holds true for the USA as well because MOB marriages are so small in number, although rising, that they don't even show up on the radar screen.

Family values of Russian women?

That's a real surprise considering the number of abandoned babies in Russia and the well known fact that sleeping around with the boss to get ahead is a fact of life in that country.
badbusinessbureau dot com/reports/default138.htm
hrw.org/campaigns/crp/promises/orphans.html
vlad.tribnet dot com/1998/iss164/news.html#news1

This is pretty nasty stuff and sure contradicts what EC will tell you about Russian women making great wives.

Aids in Russia?
news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/background_briefings/aids/newsid_383000/383555.stm

They are not getting this disease by sitting home and knitting sweaters and cooking meals from scratch for their man.

Another couple of false myths that the web sites like to propagate to desperate men.

Time and time again I see messages talking about fat, sweat suit wearing American women and how unattractive they are.

I agree that there are some real heffers out there, but only if you are looking in the wrong places and only if that's the best kind of woman you can attract.

I certainly don't date those kinds of women and neither do any of my friends nor do my women look like airbrushed head shots from some swingers magazine like the typical Russian women website does.

When you see a listing for a 24 year old, obviously attractive lady from Ukraine and her bio says she is looking for a man 25 to 65 years old, what do YOU think?

I think Sugar daddy.

Look for yourself.

This is the rule rather than the exception and ad's like this appear on some of the most respected services on the net.

If all these women spent their time cooking, cleaning, sewing and reading their Bible (like their bio's seem to indicate) they wouldn't have time for Aids, sleeping with the boss to get ahead and abandoned babies.

Another problem that arises is that men in this pursuit are comparing apples with oranges. You and I, as a semi- balding, aging man pushing 50, are comparing a 23 year old RW with the typical 45-55 year old woman you are likely to be able to date here in the USA because no 25 year old woman in her right mind would give you the time of day.

I can easily find American women in 20's on the net that look fantastic but you know what?

They aren't interested in my 49 year old butt and for good reason. After we exit the sack what's next?

What would we have in common?

I like the Beatles and Cream and she can barely remember Wings and Eric Claptan  is some guy whose kid fell out a window.

The movie star marries a younge/ethinc/fill in the blank here girl. Sure Anna Nicole Smith can marry a billionaire. Would she have married him if he were poor?

I don't think so.

How about Tom Cruise?

Same thing and there is talk that he is gay as well, who knows for sure.

Sociology proves that we as humans tend to marry within our culture, financial means, religion and common interests. Meaning, more men marry the girl next door to them that they grew up with than another woman from another part of the state, country or another country.

It's a fact of life.

Let's look at the women advertised on Russian dating sites.

I see a bunch of women in their 20-40 age range looking for men up to 65 years of age and older.

Come on already, doesn't that speak volumes of what the motive is?

I don't see American, French, Italian, German girls looking for the same?

The internet stretches far and wide, so why don't we see women in mass from the previously mentioned countries looking for American men?
Answer is they don't have to because their standard of living is at least as good or better than ours here in the USA.

We DO however see women from Latin America, Philippines and other depressed countries looking for American husbands.

Is there a pattern here?

I think so.

What about all the scamming that goes on?

I had a girl try and scam me after a couple of months of email correspondence.
She claimed her dad had been in a "terrible accident with a mafia man and she needed money to fix the car or the mafia would kill her family".

Sure....

I believe you.

Really I do....

I have to wonder how many men have married RW's only to have this scam dropped on them 6 months after the marriage.
Next comes the sick mother routine and it just gets worse from here. By the time she is done they will be hoisted their glasses to you in the local pub because you will be supporting the entire village.

According to the people I talked to it is quite common.

So, exactly what is the advantage of marrying a RW?

Traditional housewife?

You can hire a maid for far less.

It's easy on the self esteem?

True, but your family and friends will be laughing at you, trust me.

Much younger women than you could ever get here in the USA?

True, but hide the Nke's cause she will likely be trading up in 2 years or so.

To me, the biggest reason for NOT marrying a RW is looking at the people in this group.

As far as I can tell we have:

1. Men who marry after 6 days.
2. Men who marry women 20 years younger  than them and think they won't run.
3. Men who have never been married, but seem to be experts on everything including women's cycle's.
4. Agency owners posting under multiple false id's.
5. Men who don't seem to care because they are so desperate for love they ignore the corrupt methods of some people.

I really am at a crossroads here, but honestly, I can't see any reason for marrying a Russian women other than the ease on the self esteem factor.

To RW even the biggest dork seems like a prince as long as he can supply a visa and that is a fact.

One last thought.

To the RW who seem to like to respond on this and other fora with cutesy sayings of Russian wisdom slamming American education, schools and so forth I have one question:

If these things are so great over there, why are you here?

If you tell me you fell in love, you are lying because it simply doesn't work that way for most people.
Would have "fallen in love" with him if he wanted to stay in FSU?
I doubt it.....

VISA first and love second, if it even happens at all....

And to those men who drown themselves in Russian culture, language, religion and so forth, why don't you just go and live there?

It would be a heck of a lot easier.

I did the best I could disguising the links, but this board has some very controlling nazi like features. Wonder why that is?
Maybe the truth is not to be spoken here?

Regards,

        Troy

[Mark W]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

Perhaps you should actually READ the posts not the propoganda.  Most people on the board are not looking to marry in 6 days, have an age difference of 20-40 years, or be silly enough to send a large sum of money overseas to a girl they have not met.  Most that break these rules certainly understand the added risk that is associated with it.  You are 49, your girl is 36.  That is probably typical of many in this process (alot would think the age range is too large).

[BarryM]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

Don't waste your time trying to reason with a troll.

-blm

[John K]

... in response to PEOPLE! you are responding to a woman tr..., posted by BarryM on Feb 18, 2002

At least as well written as trolls get around here.  Since this post is a little more sophisticated that the normal "you guys are pathetic luzers" post, it requires a little bit different touch.  Mind you, most of the replies here are not slams against the guy, but refutations of his arguments.  Yes, he's a troll, but readers do need to see that his arguments don't hold water.

[thesearch]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

You are not credible to me. Let me tell you why. You say that you have no trouble attracting gorgeous slender educated women. In fact, you attract so many that you can not handle all of them. The one man I know who has this problem does not brag about it for several reasons. The men who sit behind a keyboard, who are the wanna bees like to do that so that they can pretend.

I tend to suspect that this is who you wish you were but, you are not -- or you would not be here at this forum or looking at women from the FSU for that matter.

Now, about your co-worker. There are women who like older men but lets assume that this is not the case. Yea - someone hit him with a stupid stick and he will get his lesson. Smart men do not exceed by too much what they can attract here in the USA. You for some reason think that everyone who is examining this is like your dork co-worker. Your assumption that this is the case also reveals that you most likely do not have the problem you say. Men who enjoy the problem that you say you have do not feel a need to put other men down in the way you have. The have no need to.

Now, I am about your age, look notably younger than most men my age, good health, I am mentally and emotionally stable, a high income earner, higher education/profession, I dress nice and have well developed woman skills.

I know that it is only a small percentage of men who have your problem of too many beautiful women. Who are the men who are enjoying this problem. They are either extremely handsome, you know the type, or have more money than god. Either that or you live in a place that affords a high percentage of women to men. Or maybe your standards of what is attractive is a lot lower than mine. Who knows. I have a very good friend who has your problem - he qualifies as being model like in his appearance. He also knows that other men do not have his same experience with women. He has married women hitting on him all the time also. He would never make a statement like you did about how easy it is to find women like you describe even though this is his experience. He knows that he is the exception and not the rule. Also, his work gets him out where he meets women - mine is the opposite. Now you say that you can find all kinds of attractive young women on the Internet. I have looked. I do not see this. Then again, I do not think that the attractive women got off the Internet the day I looked and got back on the day you looked. Sure there are some but, not like you say. This tells me you think a dog is gorgeous or you are full of bs and exaggerate like heck. Forget the young women,  if you look at the women close to our age, if you are attractive and good shape etc, it is dang hard to find a woman who is your equal relative to appearance. Now I know many men who think that these ladies are just fine. Maybe you are that way.

My call:  You are exaggerating your case. Highly unlikely that you are not.

[John K]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself out of the MOB route.  If so, don't do it, plain and simple.  Each person seeks to find their perfect match their own way.  What works for me may not for you.

You make a lot of generalizations, that smack almost of uninformed.  Had you been following a lot of the discussions here, you would see that there are very few, if any 50-60 year olds dating a 25 year old.  The largest age difference I've noticed is my own situation of 16+ years.  A pretty high anomaly, I admit, but in my case it seems to work.  Most people here tend to stay within pretty realistic age ranges.

As far as the green card scammers or the "trade up" girls, yes they do exist.  They are not the majority, however.  My experience with correspondence showed that out of some 60 odd correspondences I had, less than 10 were scammers.  That includes the 5 or 6 who were obviously in it for the money, as well as 3 or 4 potential scammers that I did not positively ID as such.  Compare that to American women and I would guess that this isn't too bad odds.

What about all these girls who "just want to come to America and get their green card"?  Sorry to burst your bubble here, Troy, but most of these women only see the green card as a hassle free way to go home and visit the family.  Without the green card, you have to go through the advanced parole process, which may have negative impact on your immigration status.  A lot of these women who divorce return back to their country of origin.  Not because they have to, but because they want to.  While life in America is much easier than in Russia, for many of these ladies, it is far less happy.  They are here because they made the choice to love and marry a man from a different country.

As far as the drunk, abusive, womanizing Russian man being a myth, let me try to give you some enlightenment.  Look at America, where do you see such men?  Usually in lower economic tiers.  The people who scrape to make a living, or who exist from welfare check to welfare check.  Well guess what?  Most of Russia is lower economic tier.  Stories abound of their treatment of Russian women, but I've noticed it usually comes from those who struggle to make a living.  Sadly, that is the majority of the Russian women looking for love overseas.

Why overseas and not in their homeland?  Is it just that America is the land of riches?  Social strata are more defined in Russian countries, and it almost resembles the Indian caste system at times.  A girl from a poor family can be practically prohibited from marrying a man in a higher economic standing (it doesn't stop him from taking her for his mistress, however).  Also throw in the xenophobic paranoia that a Russian can have, and you have a society that is segregated into a caste system based on economic worth and on ethnic divisions.

If a Russian woman could find a decent man to marry within her society, no doubt she would do it.  But sadly, this is becoming less and less the case.  Divorce rates are skyrocketing, and the number of single mothers is growing at an incredible rate.  Wait, is this America or Russia we are talking about?  I guess before we start pointing out their shortcomings, perhaps we need to get off our own pedistal and take a look at home, huh?

So why do they choose to look overseas?  It's really a simple concept, to find a better man and consequently a better life for themselves.  Better does not simply mean richer, however.  Better means a life where the husband and wife are loving and faithful to each other, where a woman feels safe raising her children, and where her children have a chance of making something of themselves.  Isn't that what we all want?  These ladies are simply brave enough to look beyond their borders to better their chances of finding a decent husband.

And these ladies are indeed brave.  They are often regarded by their fellow countrymen as women who spread their legs just to get out of the country.  They are envied, while often at the same time reviled.  Most of these girls won't tell anyone that they are even using an agency, out of fear that it will become public knowlege.  Yet they still carry on, weeding through countless emails, countless dorks (yes, there are 98% dorks to 2% decent men out there), in the hopes that one of those 2% will write her, that they will hit it off, and perhaps find true love.

And if the marriage doesn't work out, most women choose to return to their home countries in shame, rather than stay in a foreign country they aren't happy with.  I've noticed this with Russian girls, and Patrick once mentioned seeing this among the Latinas as well.  Apparently that green card isn't all it's cracked up to be...

As for what we are doing wrong with American girls, all I can say is that you haven't been to Iowa, have you?  Skinny girls are not exactly plentiful there.  All that corn fed beef and those big meals tend to pack those pounds on early in life there.  Most of the men here mention that they don't seem to have problems attracting women, but it's the *quality* of women that is suspect.  I personally can walk onto the production floor here in California and have 5 different young good looking women start flirting with me, despite the fact that I'm married.  Of course all five of them have kids and at least 3 of them have never been married.  God forbid I should ever become divorced or widowed, as I would feel like the slab of beef at a shark feeding frenzy!

Besides, I was never Mr. Social.  While people seem to really enjoy my company, I am not by nature that sociable.  Dating for me was never anything I was too excited about, and I found that the more beautiful the girl was, the less I liked her personality.  Women have come to believe their looks are enough to get whomever and/or whatever they want.  Sadly, it's becoming more and more true everyday.  I even tried a dating service, in order to avoid all the posturing and posing, and I found that the women were more interested in what salary I made than what else I had to offer.  Sorry, that wasn't the answer for me.

As far as your analysis of the board member here, you have some accuracies, but just as many inaccuracies.  If your goal was to stir up controversy that way, I think you missed your mark.  We've heard these comments in one form or another so many times that it scarcely bears answering again.  What I will say is that this forum is for learning, and for the exchange of ideas.  When the members here remember that and stick to its original intent, you'll find some very fruitful discussions.  When we have a troll infestation, some of our members seem to forget the purpose of this forum and start getting off on troll bashing.  Then it takes a while to settle things down to a normal level again.

I hope this clears some things up...

[Lara]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

Very cool, Troy, you sound pretty realistic, with loads of self-respect and proper attitude to women

But you are mistaken about foreigners to come and live here There is a huge ex-pats society and 70% have RW

And their wives love Russia too much to go abroad Me is one of them and i know lot's of others...Actually, it has got nuffing to do with your country, if we talk about the true love

BR
Lara

[Patrick]

... in response to A dose of reality, posted by golfman on Feb 15, 2002

Golfman states: "I did the best I could disguising the links, but this board has some very controlling nazi like features."

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/default138.htm
www.hrw.org/campaigns/crp/promises/orphans.html
www.vlad.tribnet.com/1998/iss164/news.html#news1

Some URLs are placed on the spam list and are quite difficult to post.  The one's you posted were not on the list.  You simply assumed that, as well as many other things, based on ignorance.

I'll let your post stay, only because the warning to men who are indeed in their 40s or 50s and are looking for women in their 20s is a good one.  You're fabricated story sounds like a good warning and is plausible.  But I think those guys are in the minority, as are the women in their 20s who say they will marry a man up to 60.  I'd guess there's maybe 1 in 100 women in their 20s who say they'd accept a man up to 60 from my experience with Latin women.  Most of them are young women with one or more children.

I find it rather amusing that the e-mail address you registered with has a woman's name in it.

Goodbye.