Notes from married life

[John K]

Hello and welcome.  Old timers will remember me, but as for you newer folks, I married a Ukrainian girl a little over a year ago.  I thought I would share a few thoughts and experiences with you.  Hopefully, it might give some of you some insight as to what you might be getting into.

Marina and I married here in the US in September of 2000.  We were settled in Iowa, and she has experienced life in the US for about a year and a half.  Sadly, adjustment to American life has not been easy for her.  She dislikes living in America very strongly and the only reason she stays here is because she loves me and her commitment to our marriage.  Were I not a decent husband, I suspect she would have hopped a plane for Kiev a long time ago.

Adjustment is often a difficult process for Russian women.  Americans are much more constrained by our society.  Political correctness, politeness, and open mindedness are strong influences on our society.  While people would mostly agree it is a good thing, it also creates an almost "false front" on people.  Marina has mentioned that all American people wear masks, as opposed to the average Russian, who are more open and opinionated.

My wife is also now experiencing difficulties with family and friends.  As she is still pretty young (21) her mother and especially her grandmother don't take her very seriously and often forget that she is a woman in her own right.  Case in point:  On a train trip from Kiev to Sevastopol, Marina rented a sleeping car for her and her parents.  She took a piece of rope from the suitcase and was tying the door shut, while her parents told her that she was being silly.  Marina then mentioned that I had done the very same thing on my last train trip to Sevastopol with her.  All of a sudden, it became a very smart thing to do.

Marina has also found out, however, that Russians can be superficial too.  While Russians are more open and opinionated, they are also more manipulative.  Marina learned this last visit to Ukraine that the people she thought of as close friends were, in fact, not.  I think that having seen my relationship with my friends, she tried to apply the same idea to her own friends and came up short.  Growing up usually ends up being a painful process...

Family relations are strained on my side too.  Having never been married, I was always at the disposal to my sister and her family.  Once I married, however, all my time is spent with my wife.  My sister has a hard time adjusting to this, and has distanced herself from us.  Marina senses this and dislikes my sister in kind.  While both my sister and my wife are careful to not get me agitated over it, their dislike for each other keeps me from interacting with my sister's family the way I used to before we married.

Recently, we moved to California and the change has been both good and bad.  Good, as the climate is better as well as the amenities (sp?).  Bad, as it further isolates us from our friends and family.  Since moving out here, Marina has developed a more insular lifestyle.  I think that finding the truth out about her friends has made her less receptive towards people in general.  I am setting up a dinner date with a coworker out here.  She and her boyfriend will come over for dinner.  The idea is that hopefully Marina and my coworker (another Marina, by chance) will hit it off.  If they do, then the two Marinas could head out for a "girls night out" occasionally.  

My Marina is lukewarm to the idea, however.  She prefers to stay at home alone.  I am forcing this issue, however.  My reasoning is that she needs more social interaction here, to build a sense of belonging here.  If I don't do this, I run the risk of eventually losing her.  Despite what all the romantics believe, love is not enough.  Her dislike of American life will eventually transfer to me, as in time I will become the person who "keeps her here".  I already have that designation in her mind, but it is more feelings of resignation at this time, rather than resentment.  If I can get her more active in her environment out here, then she will develop a sense of belonging which will help lessen her homesickness.

For those of you who are still hung up on age differences (Is that argument still going on?), I am 37 and Marina is 21.  Is such a large age spread possible.  Yes it is, but the larger the spread, the more difficulties you face.  At times, I feel more like a father than a husband, as I try to impart some of my experience unto my wife.  Explanations get pretty deep sometimes, as I try to explain why people do the things they do.  Things we Americans take for granted as nominally normal behavior, are completely foreign to her.

Also, the maturity levels are at times quite contrasting.  I have a difficult time with her sometimes, and I am sad to admit that I sometimes get angry trying to explain to her why something does not work out, or at the speed she wants.  The young are always impatient and it can be a drain on me sometimes to keep my wife reined in.  As we both have hot tempers, it can easily flare up and cause us both to be testy towards each other.  We are both careful to break it off early, however, and go sulk by ourselves until we can cool off.  Then, we try discussing it again.

Most men my age are rarely going to find a young girl that interested in them.  I was 34 when Marina and I first started getting serious.  I was worried about getting involved with an 18 year old, but she broke down my resistance and captured my heart.  What makes Marina different from other girls her age is that she has a thing for older men.  She is strongly attracted to maturity and enjoys learning what I have to teach her about life.  Most girls her age, however, aren't so receptive.  An older man often represents a compromise to the girl.  She trades years for stability and possibly comfort.  As long as she willing accepts this, the man will never have a problem.  But if she resents having to make this compromise, then it will likely transfer in time to the person who best represents the compromise - her husband.  Thus, we can see some of the dangers of a large age span marriage.

On a different note, I should mention that my wife went home for 2 1/2 months on an advanced parole and came home fine without any problems.  Of course, I had coached my wife to take the attitude that she knew without a doubt that her paperwork was correct.  When the customs agent in Borispol had questioned her about it, she stood by her guns.  She explained that we had visited the Ukrainian consolate in Chicago and he told us our paperwork was fine, before we came here.  The agent went and asked a more experienced agent about it.  "Don't worry about it," he was told, "Her paperwork's fine".

The only headache she had was coming through US customs.  She got an asian ethnic agent who spoke English worse than her.  He had a hard time processing her paperwork and kept asking her the same questions.  Finally, he finished her paperwork and let her through.  In a perverse way, I do find that privately amusing.  But combined with her late arrival, she finally got out of customs an hour and a half late.

Well, I need to wrap this up and head off to lunch.  My dinner awaits.  As always, this view is simply my 2¢ and cannot be construed as any sort of fact.  Your mileage may vary...

[KenC]

... in response to Notes from married life, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

John,
Thanks for posting.  It IS a difficult transition for RW.  Social isolation is the biggest problem for them in my opinion.  The language difficulties added to starting from scratch with regards to friends added to a society that is up side down to theirs in many ways all adds up to a major up hill battle for them.  Marina is not making it any easier by refusing to take the steps necessary to immerse herself into the American way of life.  Not driving is a MAJOR mistake on her part.  My wife Lena has said, "not driving in America is like not having legs in Russia".  This one action has made her a virtual shut-in.  You must insist on her learning to drive.  Driving lessons could have been a very valuable Xmas gift.  The language difficulties can be helped by some ESL classes.  Thses are usually offered through the adult ed departments of your local high school.  No progress in these areas and you will find yourself in a very desperate situation soon.

Marina's refusal to even try to adapt to American ways spells doom in many ways.  Not only will she become (more) depressed, but her dependancy on you will only increase.  This is what is causing your Father/daughter issues, not your age difference.  It is nice to be the center of her life, but at this point you ARE her life.  What would she possibly do if you got sick or were laid up for a week or two?  You have to get Marina some type of independency or you both will end up going coo coo.

The readjustment of your relatives (your sister and her parents) is part of life.  Not related to RW/AM marriages and is no big deal.  Some fights are not worth the effort and others are.  You must do what you have to do to force Marina into driving and into making serious attempts at becoming a Russian American or you may not make it to the anniversary.
KenC
p.s. (Please feel free to email us (Lena or I) anytime with any questions.  I just wish we lived closer.  We are in San Diego.  If you are close to S.F. I also have another idea for you too)

[Jimmy]

... in response to Notes from married life, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

John,

I live in Ukraine with my RW and find that when I gather together with expats for a social event or something similar my RW tends to bow out and not want to partake.  She feels isolated unless there is someone else there that can speak her native language.

She finds it very difficult to keep up with rapid fire Amercian english, slang, and catch phrases.  I know since I find it very isolating when I am with her friends and they rapid fire Russian.  I am totally lost and don't have anything to contribute to the conversation.  I know how she feels.  But I live in Ukraine and she has all the opportunity to speak in her native language.  I can imagine what many of you are going through now with your RW in the US.

I have posted this before and will post this again that communication in the most basic way in English or Russian will be your most difficult task and may be the only real reason your marriage will not work.  And as for RW claiming knowledge of the English language I can tell you that I work with professional translators and find that many do not understand our American slang and catch phrases.  I often get wide-eyed expressions of bewilderment from translators when I use commonly used American english terms and phrases.  I would not believe for one minute the RW claim to be "fluent in English".  This is often a misconception by them of what is necessary for conversation and dialoque.  I know many American that come here and claim knowledge of Russian language yet they can't commnuicate effectively with the locals.  Russian itself has many undefined slang words that you won't find in a dictionary.

Even though my RW and I plan to stay together I have little hope to live in the US for an extended period of time.  I don't honestly think it will work for her and she will eventually want to return to the UA.  She is 40 and I 56.  Our age difference may be large but she has many lifes experiences that have taught her how to deal with difficult situations.  I can only imagine how some of you that married younger ones are having a difficult time.

I have also said before that if you are close to my age then it would be wise to find someone at an age that has had many lifes experiences that they can draw on to smooth out the bumps in your relationships.  Young beautiful girls here are no more experienced and wise than the ones in the US.  They like expensive clothes, cell phones, and fast cars just like their US counterparts and can't see the future past one week.

Since I am near an age that I can retire early from my US job I am considering establishing a residence in Ukraine or another FSU country where Russian is the native language and sharing my residence in the US.  We will try and live in each country for a period of time so as to acclimate ourselves to avoid the sudden shock of having only one language and culture to deal with.  I have experience in Ukraine and know it somewhat.  My RW needs to see the US and all it has to offer.  That is my next step.  I just don't know how I will work the visa problem with my RW going back and forth between the US and FSU.

Thanks for your post and let us know how you and your RW are doiing.  This is the type of posts that are enjoyable to read and are helpful teaching others about seeking RW.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Oblast

[John K]

... in response to My experienced, posted by Jimmy on Jan 5, 2002

I haven't worried much about life experience so much as attitude.  When I looked for a wife, I was looking for somebody with the "survivor" attitude.  Whatever it takes, whenever you have to, for as often as you need to.  That attitude to me is realistic and highly adaptive.  My wife is that way in many aspects.

That's why it is so surprising to the both of us that she hasn't adapted as easily as we expected.  While she is young and at times lacks the maturity that only comes through living, Marina does have a presence about her that leads you to believe she is older than her actual age.  Strangely enough, people often place me 5 to 10 years younger than my actual age as well.  Consequently, we don't appear to be that far apart from each other.

As far as not seeing farther than a week ahead, that is in many ways true.  However, if all you do is stay at home, clean house, watch TV, surf the internet, and wait for your husband to come home, thinking more than a week ahead could make you pretty crazy.  That's my whole push behind getting her socializing.  It will open her up a little and get her interested in doing other things, like learning how to drive.  Once she starts living a normal life, the time will fly very quickly.

[RW]

... in response to Notes from married life, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

John,

I think your wife is very lucky to have such a good and patient husband. But unfortunately I don't see much effort coming from her side. Yes, it is difficult to adjust, yes it is new country, language, etc. BUT... she is ONLY 21. Why isn't she focusing on learning english, finding job, learning to drive and making it easier for YOU as well? Believe me, if she was busy with that she would not have time to be depressed or think about "enhancement"

No matter what you try, how nice you will be, etc - IF she does NOT make effort herself, it all will be in vain and she will always take it for granted.

Russian Wife

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Notes from married life, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

It might have helped if you went through one marriage to understand some of the adjustment problems.  Then when you faced them again you wouldn't react as strongly because you'd say I've heard this cr@p before.  You might have added to your stress by moving away from home to California.  Even though a young wife will have less maturity they are more passionate and that is a bonus except when you're arguing.  You argue the right way.  I wish my wife would have left me alone more instead of trying to wear me down by arguing all night until I agreed with her.  

California and Arizona have a lot of great sites.  You'll love seeing new things together.  With so many immigrants, it also can make her feel less out of place that if she lived elsewhere.  If you don't hate each other yet, things should get better in the second year.  Build some good memories for both of you to look back on.  

[LP]

... in response to Notes from married life, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

...you some stories. 37 vrs 21? I wasted 5 years on a 21 year old with that same age span. She was from abroad also, liked older men, kept saying how I could teach her much, ect, ect.

How I refused for awhile to get involved with her, how she persisted and "captured my heart", on and on. It's uncanny how you describe it.

I could tell you about a strange mixture of adult and parental affection, about the maturity issues, about the  lack of a common frame of reference.

I could also tell you about what happened when she grew up a little more and where she is now. Trust me, it isn't a pretty story and you don't want to hear it.I been where you are and, although you aren't me and she isn't her, I wouldn't be in that situation again if my life depended on it.

I thank God everyday I didn't marry her, even though I came very close to it. Mo offense intended, just that reading your post made the hair on the back of my neck stand staright up.

[John K]

... in response to Man, I could tell..., posted by LP on Jan 4, 2002

It made me pretty uncomfortable at first, but I gave her the chance to prove me wrong.  What was interesting was that our first week together the age difference issue disappeared altogether after the first day.  It was like we didn't feel it at all.

Even now, when the age difference does appear, it doesn't really affect us that badly.  Marina is a lot like me, when I was younger.  Same attitudes, same impatience, same everything.  One exception though.  She has a hot temper that I didn't pick up until my later years.  Lately I have had to be more careful, as Marina is more volatile.  She doesn't even know why she's angry, but she does let me know if she is aware of it.  Otherwise, I just keep my eyes open...

I think she's just reacting to a lot of stress right now.  Her parents are giving her a hard time.  A big move.  Some changes, but not all the changes she wanted.  Money issues (we're waiting on a cost of living adjustment).  I have to leave her for a week alone, while I work on a new site out of state.  Plus, she wants something, uh, *enhanced* so bad she can taste it.  We're seeing a doctor about the procedure next week, and we'll look at if we can secure the financing.  Surprisingly, the last is what is probably stressing her the most.  Not so much the procedure itself as it is the hoping for and anticipation of change.

For now, I am keeping a close eye on the bundle of nerves that is my wife and I am treating her very gently.  We still keep the lines of communication completely open between us, and we feel free to speak about our feelings at all times.  Plus, we still care very deeply about each other and we tend to be very careful not to hurt each other.  I think that is what keeps us from spiralling down into something ugly.  As I said before, Love isn't enough.  I am hoping that love, mutual respect and caring, and uninhibited communication and understanding is.

Still, it wouldn't hurt to have something to make her feel more at home...

[BubbaGump]

... in response to I totally understand, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

My wife had a bad temper too and it only slowly lessened during our marriage.  She got a boob job and became a lot worse to deal with.  The augmentation gave her a lot more confidence as men gave her more attention and I had the feeling that she thought it was unnecessary to be nice anymore because she was now more attractive.  I had another guy tell me the same thing about his wife.  My wife was already attractive before the surgery but she did not think she was attractive enough for me.  

I tend to think that women get their chest done because they want the men to come to them and it's quicker than getting a better personality.  My wife had a body like a Playboy centerfold after the surgery but I wish she never got it done with the way she changed.  Heck, you're in California, you don't think all those great bodies are real do you?  It's easy to for normal people to feel insecure about their looks there.  

Hey, have her work out and try Erdic or some other supplement.  At least if it works they'll be real.

[John K]

... in response to Man, don't buy her any of those, posted by BubbaGump on Jan 5, 2002

Well, we have pretty much run the herbal supplement gamut and came up (a little) lighter in the wallet for no gain.  Actually, I was reading a couple of weeks ago that Phyto-estrogen supplements increase the chances of getting certain cancers (uterine, I think).  Not that she is doing it now, anyway.  For me, it was a temporary stop-gap measure, to keep her satisfied while I took care of the bills.

She was pressuring me into getting one of those Brava vacuum systems for her.  After reading some women's health boards, I vetoed that one.  $2500 for a vacuum pump that doesn't really do anything except put lesions (and eventually scars) on your breasts?  I think not.  If I'm going to make that kind of investment, I might as well spend a couple of grand more and have a certified professional do the job right, with guaranteed results.

As far as her getting uppity with me, it's possible, but I think that if it occurs I will nip it in the bud pretty quickly.  I don't tolerate that kind of thing very well, and my wife now values my opinion more than anyone else's.  She often feels guilty when she gets me angry, and tries to avoid doing so, as I have a long cool-down period.  While I am careful not to be petty or vindictive when I'm angry, I am still not a nice person to be around...

Because we are highly tuned to each other's moods, we try to avoid letting issues fester and overwhelm us.  We are luckier than most newlywed couples, in that when we argue, we argue the issue first and our feelings second.  We are careful to keep the issue forefront on the table and we don't stray from it.  That way, we don't fall into the recrimination trap.  We each explain what we feel about the issue and we also cover the practicalities.  Our arguments are almost always beneficial, as each one teaches us something important about the other.  

Because of this, I really doubt that there will be any detrimental long term impact to our relationship, due to cosmetic surgery issues.  I'm certain that my wife's personality will change once the enhancement is done, but I'm hoping the extra boost it gives to her ego will provide more positive consequences than negative.  Of course, it helps to encourage the good and discourage the bad behaviors, but thats a given.

[thesearch]

... in response to I totally understand, posted by John K on Jan 4, 2002

John,

I want to thank you for your post. It is very informative.

I am going to say a few things that may not be irrelevant to anything and thus ignore them if that seems appropriate. I do not want to reward you with negatives for you taking the time to share your experiences. But, here are a few thoughts that came to me as I read your post.

You said she gets angry but for seemingly no reason and you are assuming as to the cause of which you could be totally correct. However, when people are angry it usually means that in the final analysis they are not happy. I hope it is about the issues you suspect and nothing more.

Breast augmentation I assume that is what you are referring to. Hmmmmm  - did you tell her that you do not like her breasts? Does she catch you looking at other women with nice knockers? At the same time you are talking about some financial issues relative to a cost of living allowance needed for your life if I am reading you correct - and in amidst of all this you are considering the expense of a vanity surgery? I am sure it is not the case but, it conjures up in my head a woman leading a man around by the nose versus a woman concerned about the family economics. There is a time and place for everything and maybe it is the perfect timing - how would I know. I will tell you one thing, she will attract attention from the guys once she has to worry about turning around too fast for concern of knocking something over. Breast men I have known are some of the most aggressive female predators I have seen - not caring if the woman is married included. I know ultimately one has to trust his wife and you can not lock her up in a cage but, you just might be asking for trouble. Although it is not you, I have read of at least two other men who paid for breast job's for their FSU wives in the first two years only to have another guy enjoy them later. I am sure it is only me remembering these stories that made my hairs raise when you revealed this aspect of your story. Simply association when there is no foundation to assume your outcome would be the same. I understand this.

But John, I must say this, it is my impression that women who want breast jobs not uncommonly have a self esteem problem - not all but many. And so what as long as she does not get comfort for this issue via men's attention. Think about it, what other reason would she want breasts like that other than to attract men's attention? It does not mean that is intentionally thinking of this as a way to attract their attention. But, sub consciously it is the reason why for so many who go this route IMHO.

She has your attention - is that not enough? I don't know John,  maybe it is my paranoia ---- Good luck to you both. Please - please come back every six months and let us know how all unfolds.

[John K]

... in response to Re: I am thinking about it, posted by thesearch on Jan 4, 2002

I'm not too worried about the breast thing.  As far as finances go, I can cover it out of savings combined with my tax return.  I'm currently covering all my bill on my current salary; the COLA is simply to make life more comfortable out here in California.  Still, we have to watch our money a lot closer than what we did in Iowa, and that can wear on you after a while.

As far as her wanting breasts so men will look at her more, I would say that maybe that's half true.  She already has men watching her wherever she goes, so bigger breasts will simply increase the percentage of oglers.  Marina wants to be ogled.  Apparently, that is a common trait among many Ukrainian girls.  Back in Ukraine, people often stare at others, sometimes for 30 minutes at a time or longer.  Here, in America, the starers are not the norm due to our heightened sensitivity, politeness, and political correctness.

As far as what I want, I've told her time and time again that I like her size the way it is.  I have never made any comment about her having bigger breasts, nor would I.  I think that whatever God gives you is your right size.  Do my eyes wander elsewhere?  Not very often.  My eyes are pretty much on my wife, unless I see someone with a good makeup job.  My wife notices a lot more beautiful women out there than I ever will.

That is the crux of the matter.  My wife is beauty obsessed.  Remember the old joke about reading Playboy "for the articles"?  For my wife, Playboy exists solely for the pictures.  She constantly looks for new makeup styles and Fredericks of Hollywood just surpassed Victoria's Secret as her favorite place to shop.  She obsesses about her skin.  She worries that her legs are too short.  She changed her hair color 3 or 4 times the first year we were together.  We couldn't pass a makeup counter without her needing to stop and look.

Believe me, that first year was pretty crazy.  Now, she has settled down some.  She has decided to go back to her natural color of hair (a beautiful ash blond).  Makeup counters no longer are a mandatory rest stop in the department store.  She is starting to relax and she knows that I love her, even without her makeup.  Now, it is the body image issue that drives her.  We ordered a treadmill, so she can walk in the apartment.  She exercises everyday, while I'm at work.

The body image issue inhibits her also.  She is very shy, almost antisocial around people.  She wants to be noticed, but at the same time doesn't want to meet people, as she feels that they will focus in on her "shortcomings", whatever they are.  The augmentation will likely provide her with a new level of confidence, and make her feel more comfortable when dealing with other people.

Will it cause her to leave me?  I don't worry too much about that.  My wife and I have grown too intimate for me to worry about her like that.  We are extremely well tuned to each other, and our words and actions often predict the others'.  Besides, if my wife left me simply because she got her breasts done, then I would be better off to be rid of her.  I am far from a shallow person, and I would not tolerate such shallowness in a mate.  

It's a tough call to make though.  I could try and wait her out another couple of years, but with the hard time she is having now, I think she needs a lift.  Not just physically, but emotionally and perhaps spiritually.  For my wife, this sort of thing is just the ticket.  It will elevate her mood and make her feel more like that beautiful girl she always looks at in Playboy, or on the internet.  If she is more happy with herself, then she will likely be more outgoing and consequently adjust better to her new environment more quickly.

Who knows?  Maybe after talking to the doctor she will change her mind.  She's already beginning to feel nervous about the whole thing, and while she hasn't admitted to it, I suspect that there might be some second doubts surfacing now.  It's hard to say though.

[thesearch]

... in response to The breast thing, posted by John K on Jan 7, 2002

sdf

[BrianN]

... in response to Re: I am thinking about it, posted by thesearch on Jan 4, 2002

I've had'em both with and without, then one with breast cancer that insisted on having them fixed...

Sometimes, no matter how you love them, or give attention to them, can never be enough for the bearer.

Maybe it was just me, and I wasn't enough, so it made more sense to go the physical appearance route... and still, it all failed.

Don't know.  All I can say is, I like'em small, not huge, and they're always more sensitive that way, anyway....

Maybe one day, I'll get a two foot implant, and then I'll just run around town on my own, chasing my shadow...

Tough subject.  Very.

Pass the viagara.

[yoe]

... in response to Man, I could tell..., posted by LP on Jan 4, 2002

I am 38 soon to be 39 and my wife is a whopping 35......yes I see these 24-27 year old girls and they look nice,and then I talk to them and realize we do not have that much in common. So I figure as my wife ages and I start looking more at younger girls........I will just pay for plastic surgury------she said she wants but i must get an implant......I am not sure what she meant! but hey it is all for love.......
good luck to all and to sum up the words from the previous poster.........I would not go back to where I was for nuttin'........are we back to that again?
anyway,,,,,,,
joe