pre-nups?

[Looking4Wife]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

UC said...
"I would not marry any woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup"

First let me say that I feel very strongly about this subject, and my opinion is diametrically opposed to yours.  I can´t say I "disagree" with you, because you didn´t offer advice, you merely stated your position for yourself.  Very tactful, and clever I might add...

Although life experience forces my opinion to differ from yours, what my HEART will dictate to me at the time I´m hearing wedding bells may be another story :-)

Having been divorced from my high school sweetheart after 15 years of marriage, I ALSO did not "marry a woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup".  We dated for 3 years, since 10th grade, then were engaged for 1 year.  To the outside world we seemed like the perfect couple, not unlike Heathcliff and Claire Huxtable.  Both of us were devout Christians, both sets of parents had been married for 30 plus years, etc., etc., etc.  We BOTH entered into marriage under the concept that divorce is NOT an option... In fact there are friends that we grew up with that would not believe we are divorced, and some that know STILL don´t believe it...

One of the things I have learned about divorce from a practical standpoint is that the process is LONG, and emotionally and financially DRAINING.  Far more important to me than the financial loss, was the emotional drain.  The INABILITY to move on with your respective lives, after the death sentence on your marriage has been pronounced, simply because the LEGAL PROCESS takes so LONG.

We had no children.  Only assets to divide.  The legal nature of divorce REQUIRES agreement.  If the parties don´t come to their own agreement, then the court and the loss of money to feed insatiable attorneys will GRADUALLY force the parties to come to agreement.  The emotional nature of divorce is rooted in disagreement.  You do the financial AND EMOTIONAL math...

In short, I think EVERYONE should get a pre-nup IF it can be used a mechanism to dissolve a failed marriage more quickly.

There has been nothing worse in my life than being legally and emotionally tied to a failed marriage, with my life on hold, waiting ENDLESSLY for cooperation from an uncooperative spouse, THEN for the judge to enter a final divorce decree... even when the divorce decree is issued by the judge, the judge asks a final time if BOTH parties WANT the divorce... man was THAT a scary moment... if one party says NO, then the emotional and financial meter starts ticking again...

[MarkNJ]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Looking4Wife on May 3, 2005

I guess that is one thing the pre-nup won't protect you from... the other person not wanting a divorce...

[jediknight]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by jediknight]

i agree with you UC, the idea of a prenup has never entered my mind when thinking about spending the rest of my life with my girlfriend.. if it had or if i had any doubt, i wouldn't be thinking about marrying her, i'd rather stay single and have many girlfriends with benefits. as far as we're concerned once we get married, that's it, there's no option for divorce, a prenup would put a dark clould over the relationship from the beginning before it even gets started, there would be a lack of trust right from the start and i would not be with someone that i couldn't trust, like the saying goes...prefiero estar solo que mal acompañado. is it possible that i can make a mistake or that things can change in the future, of course but i'm doing everything i can to make sure that doesn't happen, talking to her as much as i can about everything, finding out exactly what kind of person she is, what her character is like through her family and friends, this is really all i can do and as far as i'm concerned she is the one for me.

however, i can understand how someone who has accumilated wealth over the years and expects to continue to do so might be afraid of making a mistake, of marrying the wrong person. there are many women who play the game perfectly, they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear,be affectionate and appear to be the perfect woman for you but as soon as she gets what she wants then you're the one paying for it in the end with a divorce and half of what you've earned together, unfortunatly it happens and it has happened to many here and countless others and it's not just the womans fault, many times it's the guys rushing into things too quickly, not paying attention to signs of potential problems or ignoring red flags, whatever the reasons may be these are the guys that should have a prenup,the ones that are not entirely sure about their novias.
JK

[pablo]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by jediknight on May 3, 2005


Another aspect of a pre-nup besides protecting accumulated wealth before marriage that I think should be addressed is if there are children from a previous marriage.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a pre-nup or posibly better, a living will, be a means to assure the husband's wishes for his children if he were to die?

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

I feel the same way.

Hey Babe, I don't trust you, but if you'll just sign away the rights I'd have to give an AW, I'll marry you anyway.........says a lot more about the man's poor judgement than it does about the woman's possible poor character. Why on earth anybody would marry somebody they don't trust is beyond me.

[pablo]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2005


Michael,

I hear what you are saying but it doesn't necessarily have to do with not trusting a fiancée if you want a pre-nup but rather an "insurance policy" to protect your hard earned assets in the unfortunate but 50+% chance that the marriage will fail.  No one (or at least no one should) enters into a marriage thinking that they will be getting a divorce down the road but the odds are against most marriages and that they WILL fail.

People change and what once may have been a great marriage could end up on the rocks, then what?  If you are in a community state your ex-wife would be entitled to half of everything that you own.  I think if it's handled correctly, it doesn't have to be an issue that involves poor judgment, or he doesn't love me/trust me enough.

[zack]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2005

Micheal B and Utopiacowboy,

I agree with you in that I wouldn't marry a woman I don't trust either. But even if I trusted a woman 100% I would still get a prenup because some people change over time.  After 5 or 10 years of marriage that sweet, trustworthy Latina may be more hard-nosed or frustrated, or even vindictive, especially if the marriage hasn't been working as well as you expected. Every man who got burned because they didn't get a prenup says the same thing in the end: "I didn't get a prenup because I trusted her. She isn't the same woman today that she was 10 years ago."

Zack

[pablo]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by zack on May 3, 2005


My point exactly.

[david hagar]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

i agree with you.  I want the pre-nup for my protection, not hers.  i will never marry a woman who will not sign the prenup

beattledog

[MarkNJ]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

From my perspective this is one of the more valuable posts on this board in a long time...

[Lifeisgreat]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by MarkNJ on May 3, 2005

My two cents…well maybe a nickel!  Concerning Pre-nups…

Women change…so do men… what if your wife cheats on you, withholds love from you, or treats you like dirt? Do you want to hand over half of your assets? And, gentlemen...what if you change your mind?

We have the right to change our minds …if a marriage is not working you should be in the position to let the lady know so she can find true love and you can find happiness…I believe most of us  want the same thing in a relationship…to be loved, to be respected, to be treated with dignity, to feel like we have good communication, etc…in  that respect, wouldn’t it be nice to have; a spouse who really loves us and just doesn’t stay with us for the benefits of financial security…

Regarding the actual Pre-nup document…I think that you should have an attorney prepare your pre-nup document but than you need to review it closely. Make sure that it is not just a one way document that favors you and just you. Throw some things in there for your wife.  Add some loving language to soften the document. Why?   Attorneys are paid to represent your interests and they usually make the document sound so harsh that you can’t blame a lady for not wanting to sign.

Also guys, especially the newer guys that are just starting to explore South America…Believe me when I tell you- that you are in the driver’s seat. This is not Kansas anymore….it may take you some time but the smart guys figure out real soon that our rules do not apply down here! You are the man and you can ask for what you really want and as importantly what you need. Many of the men in South America do not want marriage- as it impedes them from fooling around. We Americans offer fidelity and security..That is what many of these ladies are looking for.

So deliver the goods. Just make sure you are getting a fair exchange- in return….Most of the men I know tell me what they really want is to be loved and respected. They want to feel like they really make a difference and I believe most men really want to provide for their woman...  In one way or another they want to feel like real men. How does this occur…?  It may be different for each and evey man, but I can tell you, that once you feel that you are that real man, it makes you want to do everything for that lady. So few women really understand that about men…From what I have observed, most men want to feel like they are good providers, respected and that they are  loved.   Most women want to feel like they are loved and are providing something very useful to the relationship. They don’t truly understand our needs  just as so few of us really understand their needs...Unless you are blessed , it stands to reason that there could be future problems.

A good approach concerning pre nuptials…Tell your wife in a kind way, make her feel secure, plan for her financial future and security but make sure you protect yourself and your family. Such as…? Let your future wife know that your house may go to your children if you have them and not to her and her family.  Just make sure that you also have some life insurance to provide for her welfare.

By the way pre-nups must be drafted correctly, signed at least a few weeks before the marriage, must be witness and notarized and both parties must give full disclosure of their assets. It is best to attach a schedule of assets and liabilities to that pre-nup and have that witnessed as well. Have the document done in English and in Spanish…There are even attorneys on this messege board who can get you through this stuff in a nice way so you are not shooting yourself in the foot. If you did these documents yourself you may never even be aware of these above  requirements…and also, each state can have special requirements.

Someone mentioned that each state is different…that is so true. What applies in one state may not apply at all in another state. I also favor having Trust documents drawn up that have separate property agreements. It protects your assets in most cases and is not   as harsh as many pre-nups. Also, in some states, simply keeping your property in your own name and not adding her as a joint owner can help protect those assets.

In summary, by doing proper planning with a good pre-nup, trust documents, insurance polices, and the like... you can protect both you and your spouse…I have done estate planning for a lot of years. My experience tells me that you need to go to a well informed attorney for preliminary help and for drafting of the actual documents. However, you need to make sure that you in fact provide for your future wife in the event of your early demise, disability, sickness, etc. Also, she should be taken care of somewhat over the years. She may not work in a well paying profession but that is not reason to leave her without resources in future years. Good luck gentlemen...and I might add, may all men experience the warmth of a Latin lady at least once in their lifetime!

[Heat]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups?(kinda of long!), posted by Lifeisgreat on May 3, 2005

I think it's the winner.  Great JOB!

[Hoda]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005


Well done, well said UTC....

[Chris F]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

n/t

[mudd]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

Either did my brother, but after 5 years of marriage, his wife thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, and soon filed for divorce, and we all thought she was nice girl, had her head on straight, level headed ect, People change and so do marriages. Any man with assets
marrying a girl with none, which is the norm with marrying a foreign women, should have one. Ask yourself, or her this question, what are you bringing to the table (so to speak) as far as assets. Most women, nothing, the man, a lot. Who do you think will get half the assets in a divorce, the WOMAN. Sorry, I didnt work my butt off for 20 years, so somebody could take HALF.