Think Cali is safe?

[cancunhound]

Then read this article:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2Mzk4OTE5JnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5Mw==

Having just got back from Cali, I never notice the ever apparent danger of just being there.  Stories like this put things in perspective.  A calena friend of my wife's who lives in Dallas was also visiting Cali at the same time.  Interesting, when I spoke with her on the phone down there - she was chomping at the bit to catch the plane back to Dallas - she comes from an upper-middle class family and has beeen impacted by similar scenarios (kidnapping, death, etc..).  So it's all a matter of circumstance.

This being the time of summer vacation in Colombia, I had a chance to witness the activities of all the school-children on their break - kind of sad, they are basically confined to spend their days playing behind the guarded, gated confines of their apt/housing complex - or just wasting time watching TV.  Same scenario up at the Comfandi resort at Lago Calima (lots of collegios present - kind of like summer camp) - at least they had a water park to keep 'em busy.  This is not anything like the US, the kids just don't walk a block to a neighboring complex to hook up with friends - everything is done within each micro-community or mom has to shuttle 'em.  

Not bashing Cali, just keeping things in perspective (and looking forward to my next stay).  

I haven't had a lot of takers on my offer to introduce a Calena who will be visiting Dallas at the end of July - see my profile for details if you missed it.

[cancunhound]

... in response to Think Cali is safe?, posted by cancunhound on Jul 8, 2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/colombia/story/0,11502,994362,00.html

I always thought they just drank tea and could care a less?  This is bad news for the Britts that travel there because before, they were viewed mostly as neutral, like Canadians.  This will lump 'em right with us US gringos in the eyes of the FARC.  At any rate, I for one and pretty damn proud of their alliance with the US as of late, shame Blair can't run for president over here in the future.

As the article mentions the US helicopters provided, I should mention that last week in Cali the presence was very obvious.  Mostly hueys and a couple of blackhawks (impressive) - in southern Cali they provided quite a show as on several occasions some sorties flew directly overhead (quite low too I might add) on what I found out to be latter were several missions into FARC activity to the south of Cali.  All the shoolkids on break were obviously fascinated with the racket (as was I).   It was nice to see hard evidence of Plan Colombia at work.  BTW, everyone I talked with was on board with our assistance with the new helicopters - their old hueys are vietnam era.

[Michael B]

... in response to And now the British are coming..., posted by cancunhound on Jul 9, 2003

Martha lives on the extreem south side of town, I'd guess maybe a mile from the open hills. She often sees the helicoptors flying missions, sometimes from her roof top can even see the flash and hear the report of their guns as they shoot at FARC in the hills, I've heard their guns in the background when we're on the phone.

[Traveller]

... in response to And now the British are coming..., posted by cancunhound on Jul 9, 2003

Dude, what are you talking about? The Brits have been giving miltary assistance down here for years. Read the line in the article, "Britain is secretly stepping up military assistance to Colombia as the war on drug trafficking......." Stepping up military asistance, not beginning miltary asistance. SAS guys have been going down to the English bars (and one Irish bar) here in Cali for years. They ain't here on vacation. Now all of a sudden the Brits are going to have problems with the FARC? Come on.
For your information, there is no such thing as "neutral" here.  You think if you get stopped by a FARC or ELN roadblock they are going let you go because you have a Canadian passport? You're a North American, period. What about the German that was kidnapped down here. Or, the French guy that is still missing. And although I am not completley positive, I think there is a Dutch guy missing too. The rebel groups don't give a rats ass where you're from as long as you're a foreigner. If you're a foreigner, they think you got money. There is the reason you get kidnapped down here. One thing you don't realize is that it's not just the rebel groups who will kidnap you here. Oh no. The common thugs will kidnap you and Sell you to the nearest rebel outpost. And, they don't care if you're American, Russian, Canadian, French, Phillipino, or even Mexican. Just ask the American and Mexican soccer scouts who were kidnapped at the Pacific Royale Hotel in just that scenario, Luckily, the group were stopped by an Army checkpoint and the guys were freed.
About 6 months ago, the FARC made a public statement to attack Americans wherever they may be in Colombia. Well, I'm still here.
Apparently, you are coming in the game late. The H-60's have been flying around Cali for a long time. Even saw one with 4 TOW-2 missile launchers under the wings. But, the big thrill as when Uribe sent out the Mirage Cs to do ground attack operations against the FARC in the South. It was on the news that night. About 135 rebels well done.
heck, if you want to talk to some 60 drivers, go down to Buena Ventura where they land. They got a bar they hangout at. Think that is a secret?
As for your comment that I have been lucky down here so far because I have been living here for two years (4 years ago since my first trip here) and haven't personally witnessed any violence. Ok, maybe. (Although the guy that makes my furniture got killed last year. That count?) How do you explain Pete who has been living here for 11 years and haven't had anything bad ahppen. Or what about Nigel who has been here for 14 years and has a wife and three kids and nothing really bad has happened. What about Big Tim who is a school teacher here and hasn't had anyt thing bad happen to him. What about Gary, well Gary did get stabbed in the heart when a guy robbed him of his bike, but the Docs here fixed him up, but he has been living here for 6 years and even after that incident, he is still living here. Tells you something. What about Reneau, who has been living here for 10 years with his wife and nothing bad has happened. What about Russell, who recently left to go to India, who lived here for 5 years and nothing happened to him. And especially Martin. That guy has lived here for 17 years and has one of the most successful bars in COLOMBIA. And, there are a score more Americans, Brits, French and Canadians who live here in Cali and nothing bad has happened to them. Are we therefore all "lucky?" No, it's not luck, it's knowing how to live in Colombia amongst Colombianos.
And where do I speak from? I have 32 stamps in my passport from Colombia alone, nevermind Ecuador. In one year, I came here 6 times. 32 times in 4 years. I have a business and am working on my second. I have a business VISA. I have a cedula. I have lived here for 2 years straight. I have put in the time here to know what I am talking about.
I have written too much. Sorry, that I am opinionated when it comes to this place, but eventually it gets under my skin when someone who has been here a couple of times knows everything there is to know about Cali and Colombia and Colombianos for that matter.
Anyways, my opinion doesn't matter in the long run, I suppose. I have to go and celebrate my birthday. Gonna go out with my models and have a good time and celebrate yet another birthday here. And in the long run, isn't that what matters?
Ah PS: In regards to the Kite Boarding thing. There is  a Kite festival in Palmira this weekend and we are doing a fashion show there at around 6:30pm on July 12th. If you get a chance, come on by.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: And now the British are coming..., posted by Traveller on Jul 9, 2003

Traveler would you post or e-mail me who makes your furniture? Thanks

Cali-vet

[Traveller]

... in response to Re: Re: And now the British are coming....., posted by Cali vet on Jul 10, 2003

It was the little grey haired man who made the bar stools, tables and chairs for Blues Brothers. We had some chairs that were being fixed at his place outside Cali in the West and we didn't hear from him in over 2 weeks. So, we called his son and he said his father was killed a few days ago. A roberry that went bad, I believe. Not sure what his name was. I think it was Jorge.

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: And now the British are coming..., posted by Traveller on Jul 9, 2003

OK, you got me pegged;
I have only been to Cali twice,
I do not have a condo there,
I did not get a new passport because I ran out of pages,
There are no guerillas outside of Cali,
There are never police checkpoints on the roads in/out of the city,
I do not pay a friggin separate tax because I own the parking space at my condo,
Elevators in downtown Cali are a joy to ride,
Bottled water is not necessary,
My son is not attending a colegio in Cali,
The doors are still open at "La Ley" in unicentro,
etc..

Hey, I never claimed to know everything about Cali nor Colombia - that's why I'm here, alot of good info is shared.   Even while in Colombia, I usually spend more time away from Cali than in it.  Maybe I misinterpret the membership here but I believe alot of guys here are going down for their 1st trip and may find something of what I and others share useful - maybe not.  

I'm not bashing Cali by any means.  But for a 1st time visitor, I'd think it would be good to know kind of what to expect, like:
-they will be initially floored upon viewing the apparent chaos outside of the airport upon landing
-expect police checkpoints on all roads into Cali (with the exception of the tollroad to the airport - but I've seen 'em there too)
-don't be alarmed when at times you see all the helicopters overhead, often it's just their normal flightpath

I brought up the article about the Britts because you just don't see that in the headlines much.  So I'm not sure what I've done to tee you off or who may have pissed in your post-toasties.  I'm fully aware of the difference between common thug kidnappings and that of the FARC, and yes targets are all nationalities, but you honestly believe US is not at the top of the list should you wander fullishly about the countryside?  Then we disagree, WTF que sera sera and have a happy birthday.  (I agree that's what matters in the long run).

[Traveller]

... in response to Think Cali is safe?, posted by cancunhound on Jul 8, 2003

I read the story. I see where on brother was killed in Cali. Other than that, I don't see much mention about Cali. And, what you don't read about in that article is what were the Diaz brothers and or family up to that the knuckleheads were after them so much. Every story has two sides to it.
Another thing that nobody writes or hears about is the millions of Colombians who live their lives and don't have these problems. It's only when the press gets ahold of some story and sensationalize it that it sounds like the whole country is coming apart at the seams. But, like I said, what about the millions of folks who just live life and don't have problems. Kids still walk to school, people still go to work, people still go to the store, people still go to the malls, people still go out to eat, people still go to the movies, people still pay their bills,etc, etc and so forth.
True enough Colombia has it's problems. I am a "Gringo" and I have lived here for two years and have not been "shot on my doorstep by two guys on a motorcycle." The other "Gringos" that live here that stand out far more than I have never had a problem. Business owning "Gringos" have not been kidnapped, killed, or have to payoff the Rebel groups and they have a predictable schedule. What about the "Well to do" Colombians who live here and have no such problems with the knuckleheaded rebel groups? What about the "not so well to do" Colombian folks who have no such problems with the same knuckleheads?
I really don't like those kinds of  articles because it simply makes Colombia sound like you'll get killed even before you get off the plane or if you do, you stand about as much chance of surviving than an Infantry 2nd Lieutenant in VietNam. But, as most guys know that have been here, it's not like that at all.
My opinion of the article is that those guys did something to gain the attention of the FARC. And, it probably wasn't those guys per se, but something a relative did and that put the mark on the family and whatever it was, it probably wasn't something to legal either.
Whatever it was, I don't trust anything the press writes about on face value, especially when it comes to Colombia.
So, to sum up, yep, I think Cali is safe enough, if you don't act a fool.

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: Think Cali is safe?, posted by Traveller on Jul 8, 2003

I too dislike the negative press, just thought I'd point this article out.  The "vacuna", or extortion payment is very real and very common in the countryside.  Often it is paid in the form of crops or livestock, not necessarily money - in exhange for "protection".  To refuse is a deathwish, but I don't blame the father here for standing up for what's right.  He should have known that his family would be the first to be targeted upon refusal.  I got the impression this is all about Cali.  Your landowners, farmers, etc. rarely venture to their property, especially if it is far outside of Cali.  They've been forced to reside in the city.  To manage livestock or agricultural operations, they rely upon "foremen" who are low key individuals not prone to being guerilla targets.  The city becomes bascially a prison for these owners and their families.  I speak from experience here as I have an acquaintence in Cali who manages such operations (and as such has permitted me to safely see much of the countryside surrounding Cali).  This story in particular is not uncommon at all.  I have heard many similar from him, most unforgettable was the one where a guy refused to pay kidnap fee for his brother, brother was subsequently killed.  Didn't stop there - they then tried to extort him for a burial fee.  If anybody truly believes that the guerillas are not a threat in the veccinity of Cali, I challenge you to put on your rose-colored glasses and drive the short 15 minutes up the riverroad to Pance - then ask the military there at the blockade why you can't travel any further!  No, FARC are not patroling the streets in Cali - but they're damn close.

I also agree that generally, as an gringo you do not have a bullseye painted on your back unless you manage to gain alot of attention and flash alot of cash.  It is kind of intriguing to me how many of us gringos would like to move down to Colombia permanently (including myself).  The catch is that typically we're in a position where we don't have to struggle to get by day by day like your average Colombian. We really don't have a clue of what it is really like in the trenches - we can always leave. How many working class Colombians do you think would jump on the opportunity to have  a US visa right now?

Again, I'm not knocking Cali or even Traveller's comments, just an IMHO of my take of the situation.  Traveller's put in 2 full years there - I can only claim about a year of combined interupted stays.  If Traveller has managed to go that amount of time without knowing someone personally that has been the victim of violent crime - I'd suggest that he is extremely lucky.  Also, if you see middle class kids walking to school in a strata 4+ barrio then you can bet the school is practically next door, they're walking in large groups, and the neighborhood is protected by paid vigilantes - that's just what I've witnessed - maybe it is different in other parts of Cali.  

All of the "introduction agencies" will claim that the cities are safe, just don't wander about countryside, blah, blah, blah.  Of course they say that, they need your business.  Colombia becomes dangerous when you let you guard down and when you least expect it.  Contrary to popular perception, you can safely explore the countryside if done properly - check out "Gui de Rutas por Colombia" available through "Fondo de Promocion Turistica Colombia" - you can probably get a copy by contacting them via their website http://www.turismocolombia.com

Now, the typical gringo visiting an introduction agency for a couple of weeks is shielded from all of this madness - but it is there.  Just my 2 cents

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Think Cali is safe?, posted by cancunhound on Jul 9, 2003

Most working class Colombians would love to have a visa to work in the US.They make very little money and have no opportunity there.My brother in law wants to come here.We will expore getting him an HB-1 visa but its difficult.He thinks it is easier to immigrate to Canada and is checking that out.
So no american would want to try and get by on a Cali salary in Cali.But if you have other assets or sources of income it can be a cheap place to live.I have a good pension and might live there except for security concerns.My wife would love to live there but she really wants to stay here for job opportunity for herself and education oportunity for her son.I asked if she wanted to live in Colombia.She said no.This is my dream to live in the US.

Pete

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Think Cali is safe?, posted by Pete E on Jul 9, 2003

Yes it's their dream all right, same old, same old. I'm trying to soft shoe around that. So far so good.

[markxport]

... in response to Re: Think Cali is safe?, posted by Traveller on Jul 8, 2003

n/t