Ebenezer Scrooge....???

[Pordzhik]

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge...., posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

on the initial trip to Latvia?

Easy to spend spend spend when your pound can buy so much over there. Did you in some way set yourself up for all this?

You say that this girl has some great qualities; Well some of the greatest qualities for a long term relationship is having the ability to listen, understand, compromise and agree.

Why don't you tell her what you've told us? I bet a pound to a penny that's just what the last western guy did and that was what caused her so much emotional distress.

BTW what did she give you for Christmas?

[Streetwise]

... in response to How did you behave with money, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

I paid for the trip, and I did tell her from the start not to worry about anything money-wise; so I may have already set the scene in advance that I would be paying our way. And I made nothing of paying for everything for most of the trip, which may have made her too casual about it also. I just didn't expect the additional shopping from her side beyond the things I had already bought for her, and her obvious expectation that I would continue putting my hand in my pocket all the time. Her present to me was a small hand-painted picture of her home town, and a metal car-key fob with my make of car engraved on one side and my initials engraved on the other. She must have had it engraved in Latvia before coming over. S**t, maybe I AM Ebenezer Scrooge!?  

Anyway, I had next planned to visit her in a few weeks in Latvia for a weekend, and then see her again for a week in mid-February. So I decided to test her by saying that I would need to tighten my belt after Christmas, and put the brakes on spending in general. She then suggested we should forego the interim trip and wait for the mid-February visit to save money. Also, when we were discussing the possibility of a future together, she began to talk about finding work over here, and although she designs computer graphics and websites back home, she said she would turn her hand to anything if necessary (waitress, etc) to get started. So hopefully she isn't expecting to be a "kept woman."

This girl has told me repeatedly about her previous disastrous experiences, and what information I have gathered elsewhere is consistent with her story. It seems that she now finds it difficult to trust anyone and is constantly testing me to see if I am going to turn out like the others. She ran a business together with the first guy and he ended up dumping her for another girl and keeping everything they had built up together, including the house. The second guy made her sell her computer equipment and got her a job at his car dealership, paying her an allowance of 200 Euros a month. He apparently ended up mistreating her, so after this she had to start over again once more. I have noticed since we've known each other that she has deliberately tested my character to see how I react, and she gets extremely agitated if my reactions or behaviour resemble those of her previous encounters. Maybe this money thing is just another sounding-out process.  

So it's not quite such a simple black-and-white issue as it sounds...

[vagn]

... in response to Re: How did you behave with money, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

[This message has been edited by vagn]

Overall, I agree with KenC's "short answer: NO" post.
Her behaviour is a concrete.  Everything else is supposition.
Here is some more food for thought:

=== I have noticed since we've known each other that she has deliberately
=== tested my character to see how I react, and she gets extremely agitated
=== if my reactions or behaviour resemble those of her previous encounters.

Great.  You pay the freight for the other guys' baggage.
You haven't done anything and you're already guilty.
Let's be charitable and say she has a run-away defense going here.

Well, it's good and proper to defend oneself against injury.
But, she must know that a cat that sits on a hot stove will never sit
on a hot stove again -- nor will it sit on a cold one.

She should stop being little-miss-victim and think about what she
needs to do to protect herself.  Perhaps a pre-nup.  Separate accounts.
Well thought out and agreed upon boundaries.  Enough stashed away
to get her back home if things turn sour. That kind of thing.

For the sake of argument, let's assume she is fundamentally sound about
money.  Then she should realise that what is being frittered away
could better be put into her hands to ensure she has an 'out'.
Not becuase she needs or will take the 'out' but because without it
she feels too vulnerable and exposed.

You could even set up an escrow account that neither of you can
touch, for say 10 years after marriage, except that she gets it if
she files and returns to wherever she came from.  (That plus a pre-nup
could limit your exposure, too.  See a lawyer.)

At that point, at the very least, she should see that you are
not trying to trap or trick her.  What she should realize is that
you are betting on her every bit as much as she is betting on you.

=== Maybe this money thing is just another sounding-out process.

Testing is one thing.  Testing with the attitude that it's certain
to go wrong is another.  If all men are fundamentaly rotten, then
why not get while the getting is good?  (She's already got the skills
to turn that into a career plan.)

What is her fundamental belief?  Does she really think it's all
fundamentally rotten?

She could be testing in small destructive ways because she is afraid
to bring up the things that would really make a difference.

By the way, do you two have much of a language barrier?
Does she love you?  How do you know?
Did she marry the other guys?
If no, what is there to compare with you?
If yes, how did the settlement work out?

[Streetwise]

... in response to fundamentals, posted by vagn on Jan 4, 2003

Thanks for your response, Vagn.

There is no significant language barrier, her English is semi-fluent.

She wasn't married to these other guys; one she lived with for 2 years (the Latvian guy she ran a business with) and the other she lived with for just a few months (the European guy she met through an agency).

She tells me that she readily gave up her share of the business just to get away from this Latvian guy after he found himself another woman.

This lady and the one I mentioned earlier are actually one and the same (the European guy is also the same as per my earlier post).

[Pordzhik]

... in response to Re: fundamentals, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

That was sound advice given by Vagn, I hope it can help you both. I got the search feature to work and now have the history to this. I would've taken Johnnydudemans advice way back then, RW out there on the internet are like the stars in the sky. Why lumber yourself with problems when the choice is so huge?

You have more experience with Russian travel and chasing Russian women than half this board put together, but this isn't a RW specific problem, could be any woman anywhere.

Now that we begin to get the full picture, I wonder if this money thing isn't just some way to provoke you into, what? ending the relationship? heated words and a full blown row? Whatever, it would allow little miss victim to claim yet again how hard done by she is.

You may not like what I'm saying here, but if you come here inviting comment, then that's what you get. I'll leave this soon, but first I'll give you a few things to consider or ask.

Why did Latvian guy feel the need to look for another woman?

She ALLOWED Latvian guy to keep all the jointly earned assets.

She ALLOWED German guy to talk her into selling her computers.

She ALLOWED German guy to employ her at 200 euros per month.

German guy assaulted her and she ALLOWED him to get away with it.

If you are in the market for a doormat, this is the ideal woman.

[NW Jim]

... in response to Little miss victim, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

I agree it sounds like there is a problem with the "little miss victim" aspect of her personality. It means that if anything goes wrong in the relationship it's going to be YOUR fault.

Secondly, it's bad taste to re-hash the results of previous relationships, it means there will be no statute of limitations when you do something wrong. It'll be like the Energizer bunny commercial... you'll keep hearing about and hearing about it....til you go deaf. Ever wonder why some old men aren't unhappy that they're deaf?

Be very careful with this one.

[Pordzhik]

... in response to Re: How did you behave with money, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

Paying for the lady's trip is what we all do, goes without saying. But to find yourself being used as a walking cash-dispenser? That's not on!

You and this lady don't have a hope at all, given her past history, seems she seeks out abusive and controlling men, with her harping on about them all the time and what she's doing is trying to find your button, you've said as much yourself haven't you? She has not learned anything from her past relationships. Sad but some people DO seek these strange relationships even if they don't realise it themselves. She will test this relationship to destruction.

I seem to remember you posting before about a lady who was in a similar (abusive) situation (I tried to do a search). One of the responses was saying that you should search for women who have had and seek "positive life experiences" or something like that. You've have some heavy questions to ask yourself.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge...., posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I think some times we do that to ourselves...

I don't know, since I wasn't there.

But with an AW I dated once, I had the same thing happen over time. She was VERY frugal with her money... but not with mine.

When I thought back on it, I realized that I had conditioned her to think this way early in our relationship. I remembered a few times early on when she tried to order the cheapest meal on the menu, or suggest eatign at home... and I wouldn't have it. I insisted.

Then, after a few months, she decided to take me at my word, and never thought about money again... which (oddly) kind of pissed me off.

But, looking back, I see I really was to blame for it.

I don't know if you had something similar... but if so, I would say don't worry so much about it. If you "taught" her to spend your money, it would be easy enough to "un-teach" her, since that is probably her nature anyway (from the sounds of it...)

However, for the record, (and this is very much on the record in the trip report) Victoria NEVER wants to spend my money -- now our money.

She trusts me for the finances... but she tries to save wherever she can. The challenge right now, is she is still learning what is "expensive" in American terms.

But those things she knows about... she watches. And she has always been this way...

[vagn]

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge...., posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

=== she frequently mentioned to me, he had made her feel
=== less than welcome and had put her through some misery

Why did she make this your problem?  Your happiness does
not seem to figure into things.  And she refuses to be
happy?  He's gone, you're there -- what's there to complain
about?  Other than that the complaints keep YOU feeling
a little guilty and off balance.

=== I soon noticed that she was extremely cute about
=== parting with her money but had no hesitation or
=== compunction about spending mine.

Which you kept spending hoping it would cheer her up.
Why should she cheer up when being a brat gets rewarded
so richly?

=== I am very fond of her and she does not seem to be
=== a gold digger. I've met real RW gold diggers before,
=== and she is very clearly not one of them

You've met incompetent gold diggers before.
Now you've met a pro.

This has nothing to do with being a RW -- there are
plenty of women like that all over.

[tfcrew]

... in response to you been had, posted by vagn on Jan 4, 2003

Enjoy your little snow storm up there?

Vagn...lined anything up for your next trip east?
Karl

[Pordzhik]

... in response to Think "Streetwise" ought to ch..., posted by tfcrew on Jan 4, 2003

[robobond]

... in response to Yeah, to Santa Claus  nt, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

nt