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[This message has been edited by Dr Aaron]

http://www.latinencounters.com/modules.php?recordID=0937&backgall=4&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=Detailgirl&file2=Gallery&condic=

Hi Patrick,

This agency is consciously advertising services to meet female members who are 16 years old, which would be a crime here in the USA. RAPE !!!!

1.) No American man, in their right mind, would ever consider starting the immigration process for a girl of this age because they wouldn't want to incriminate themselves.

2.) There's only two reasons why a girl of this age would be included on a foreign marriage agency website: to be used for sex, or the prospective husband would be willing to wait a few years for her. I'll let you decide which reason is most likely.

As far as I'm concerned, the new management has poor scruples, and I am sure it would be in the best interest of Planet Love to remove the link to the agency.

Secondly, in order to view any of the data for the ladies in their profiles within the photo gallery, men have to pay a membership fee.
I find this totally unethical for both the ladies and men. Men are not able to read profiles, but only look at the photos, which emphasizes physical attraction at the expense of considering other aspects, such as personality. Women are prevented to post a decent representation of themselves within their profiles.

However, this is just my opinion, and I'm sure plenty of desperate men will be willing to pay membership fees just to read bio-data of ladies. Actually, this practice can lead to a great scam...with fraudulent agencies that post simple profiles with fake bio-data of various women, and claim such women are female members; but in reality they are not. Such an agency would still be able to make money because men would pay to read the bio-data of these "phantom women," but when the time comes to request an introduction, or send a letter or flowers, of course the agency will claim that she is not available, or she received the flowers and/or letter but is not interested.  

At this rate, the new management will definitely run a good, long-time agency into the ground by these poor practices.  

Aaron

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

...is definately different and girls become women a lot sooner.  Older men impregnate younger women, girls lose thier virginity at an incredibly young age especially when impoverished.

That said, US citizens face arrest and serious charges if they have sexual relations with minors.  These laws may be ignored in the country but not when the perpetrators are US citizens.

Costa Rica routinely allows what we would consider sexual child abuse withot a care but US citizens face serious penalties for partaking.  This is one case when a US national had better not assume he can act under local norms when traveling.  

Child prostitution, while not prevalent, exists in Costa Rica.  I assume that this would not be possible without customers.  However, US citizens are occasionally prosecuted for what is accepted as acceptable behavior by Costa Ricans.

... in response to the third world..., posted by kented on Jan 5, 2005

Kented,

You said: “…US citizens face arrest and serious charges if they have sexual relations with minors.” I think you were referring to the PROTECT Act. The law is aimed primarily at sex tourism and makes it illegal for U.S. citizens or permanent residents to engage in “commercial sex acts” (prostitution) with a minor under 18 in a foreign country. But it does not cover non-commercial sex.

Interestingly, there is no minimum age for a female applying for a fiancée visa. The law only requires that the parties be free to legally marry. If her age requires special consent or permission from parents or guardians in the jurisdiction in which the marriage will take place, then you must provide written proof of consent with your visa petition.

The minimum age to legally marry varies by state. In most states, you can marry at age 16 with parental consent. In some states, the minimum age is even lower than that. In New York and some other states, you can marry at 14 with parental consent and a court order. In New Hampshire, it’s possible for a female to marry as young as 13. California doesn’t even have a minimum age.

If she is under the legal age in her country then you may have other problems. In any case, I would expect some very close scrutiny before a fiancée visa is issued to a girl under 18.

Ray

... in response to Not necessarily true..., posted by Ray on Jan 6, 2005

Thanks, Ray.
I have assisted in securing fiancee visas
and spousal visas for ladies under the age
of 18, with parental consent for marriage
in writing.

Typically, consular officers will scrutinize
these visa applications closely not only
to satisfy the requirement that the proffered
relationship is sincere and genuine, but also,
if warranted, to ensure that visa issuance is
in the best interest of the minor.

Regards.

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

I checked out thier page and I have to say that it is not very much like a site that is selling sex.  I have seen a site that is selling sex and well it is screaming sex!  I look at the sixteen year old girl on the site as them not discouraging this young ladies dream!  They should not tell anyone that they have no chance with a guy.  What I do believe is that any dirty old man that would try to hook up with this girl and sleep with her would have big problems.  If that was my daughter and some 40 year old man got her in bed I would promptly let his location and what he had done be known to the local guerrillas and let them deal with him.  There is a code of ethics in every part of the world, in Jail pediphiles are the low lifes of the prison and usually don't survive. My point is that the Colombian people are good people and they are going to keep their high standards of ethics so give the girl and the ladies that you are looking at more credit than what you have.  All of my experiences with Colombians in 1999 have been positive except for the one guy that I would not buy his shoes that he was selling and he yelled at me.  If I go to Cali instead of Medellin I think I would use this agency.  The thing is that I have talked to this girl a while back, she loves baseball and knows a lot about it and she is in Medellin and we are going to meet when I go to medellin!  Oh yeah did I mention the fact that my old PC with all her pictures blew up and I still remember her like it was yeterday!

... in response to Re: Patrick Look At This. It's Important..., posted by Payton on Jan 5, 2005

I have spent alot of time in poor neighborhoods down there and I can tell
you one thing that if there is a choice of eating or throwing that high standard
of ethics out the window guess what wins? I have seen alot that makes me
wonder sometimes The women in the neighborhood are treated like crap... the
ones that don't put up with it are alone no man wants them. I got to watch men
and woman using drugs every where... I watched their kids running wild in the
streets because the parents were out shop lifting for more drugs. I also got to
listen to gun fire as people got robbed of all their pesos. A girl is considered
fare game at 12 years old sad but true... my wife is a teacher and told me about
some of her students who get pregant from men that are 30 years old and
above. She explained to me that if you have no money what are you going to do?
The guerrillas don't give a crap about a old man banging a young girl they are
doing it also. Just don't mess with their drug business.... For all the bad down
there I still love the place only because every time I go there no matter how hard
their lives are they still treat each other with repect unless they want your pesos
then you are hit....

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

I have met the young lady you speak of and her mother,who is also on the site.I had a cita with the mother,then she came to a party at my house and brought the daughter.Traveler knows them also and posted about it in a thread below.
I also think 16 is too young to be on a marriage agency site
and the mother is doing the daughter a diservice getting her involved.On the other hand this is Colombia and perhaps it is her best opportunity  for  a better life.We tend to judge by our standards,and if you assume the rediculous US standard that sex with a 16 year old is rape and even seeking to meet one a crime,then we are WORLDS apart from
Colombian and most of the rest of the world thinking.
That is not to say this girl is offering sex,just seeking to meet a man.
You are right a guy would be in a world of trouble even if he legally married the girl in Colombia and tried to bring her to the US.But guys from the US are not the only ones meeting girls at the agencies.
Bottom line I agree with you its inappropriate.I don't think it even starts to raise to the level of a crime however.At least not in the country she lives in.
As far as charging to see photos,that might bring in some  income from lurkers but will tend to drive away seekers in the know who realise its one more expense they do not need to bite off,there are lots of agencies who don't do that.

Pete

... in response to Re: Patrick Look At This. It's Important..., posted by Pete E on Jan 5, 2005

Well said Pete!

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

Is 16 too young? Yes!

Is it a crime or "rape" to meet a 16-year-old in another contry? No!

You sound like one of them dumb-ass know-it-all feminists (LOL!)

Ray

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

This is why I think that spending all that time in the ivory tower is a huge waste of time. It tends to give some people who spend their time locked in a little room taking notes the misguided impression that they actually know something. The world doesn't work that way and never has. Although I agree that a 16 year old has no place in a marriage agency, I am not so full of myself that I think that that is no more than an opinion based on the society that I grew up in, and having gotten out of the house on occasion, understand that there are other cultures that would disagree and who am I to say that they are wrong? I believe the age of consent in Colombia is 14. About 70 or 80 years ago here in the US it was 13, and I believe on the books in some areas of this country, the state laws still say 12 or did up until a few years ago before it was federalized. Not saying that it is wrong to think the way that you do, it is just wrong for you to think that you are the barometer for the world's view. Women are physically able to have children at or around 12 or 13. At one point in the history of the world, this was necessary for our survival as a species. People usually didn't live past 25 or 30 on average. You just live here Dr. Aaron. The fact that you read a book or two doesn't make you any more the judge and jury than it made the Missionaries that wanted to convert the "savages" and wiped out more cultures than disease and famine.

... in response to The problem with the "educated"..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

there is an eastern european site that used to have 14 and 16 years old on their site. no one said a word about that agency  i agree 16 years is to young for a marriage agency, but the 3 rd world is different

beattledog

... in response to The problem with the "educated"..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

Well I have to say that I'm also one of the "Educated" and I used to think like you do until I got interested in getting my doctorate and learned what it is Professor really do and how they shape the world in their respective fields.   But that's not the point of this post.

I think Aaron was simply saying that a man having a 16 year old wife could cause some legal problems here in the US.   The general assumption is that when someone goes to Colombia or wherever, is that they will marry that person and bring them back to the US.  To be honest I'm not sure of how that would exactly work, but I would be leery of it.  Here is why: US- It is considered rape for a person of age to have sex with a person under the age.  Granted the parents will have given permission for their child to marry the man, but it's not clear to me what the result would be when they return to the US.  I guess it would be ok, but I'm not an attorney.  

Finally, I think Aarons major point was to say that a firm advertising a 16 year old should be looked upon with suspicion as it could be easily confused with one of those sites that sets up men to have sex with young girls. Yes those types of places do exist. The thing is, having a (some) 16 year old women could attract a “different” type of man to the agency.  That would not be good for the men that are seeking relationships and marriage.  We all know about the men that go down to Colombia and seek to have “fun” rather than try and find a suitable partner for marriage.  

Can you imagine what would happen if a man posted his photos of  his16 year old girlfriend in his hotel room on his bed in underwear or even a bathing suit????  That person might be approaching the child porn borderline.  Again perhaps this sounds extreme, but you never know and I know I don’t know the law so I wouldn’t do it.  Again Aarons point is just to make people aware of the potential problems and hazards that could exist with a agency that post 16 year old girls.

While the age of consent might be different in Colombia, make no mistake that people in general do not think it’s a good idea that a older man have a teenager for a novia or otherwise.   Sure you might see it, but that doesn't make it right or acceptable.  My ex novia pointed out a couple like that to me and then we discussed what she thought of it and what she thought was public opinion in Colombia (granted this is her opinion of the general opinion). She said that while it’s typical for a man to be slightly older than a woman, it’s not looked upon happily when a man is considerably older than a woman (i.e., a 45 year old man with a teenage). In many ways, Colombia is not much different than the US.  There is a difference between couple where a man who is 52 and a woman who is 30 and a couple where the man is 38 and the woman is 16.  The later is not looked up favorably in either the US or Colombia or anywhere in my opinion.  

I’m sure someone will think this is a PhD mafia or some sort, but I wanted to take a moment to point out a few things.  I know we have some attorneys on the board, it would be great if they shared their feelings and legal opinion.

Happy New Year everyone

... in response to Re: The problem with the "educated&..., posted by Onephd on Jan 5, 2005

I think we all agree with and understand Dr Aaron's intent. My issue was with his pompous, righteous indignation and his assumption of depravity. It is that line of thinking that led others to label certain groups of people "savages". When I put "educated" in quotes, I did it for a reason. There is a major difference between being gifted with intellect, and being taught how to do something. I am a firm believer that if you pay enough money and work hard enough, any person with a modicum of sense and perseverance can be a PhD. All you have to do is show up for class and take notes. I used to have a guy with a PhD in Psychology cut my lawn. Great conversationalist, by the way. I have seen true geniuses shuffled through the educational system in special education classes mainly because the teachers weren't smart enough to teach them so instead of recognizing their talent, they tried to cover up their own ignorance. Those doctorates are good for getting jobs (sometimes), but that's about it. You either have it or you don't, and waving a piece of paper in front of someone that does just makes you look "educated".

... in response to Re: Re: The problem with the "educa..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

Well, I have to disagree with you on some things.  

1.  Getting a PhD in almost any field requires that you have some substantial gray matter (usually top 10% just to be considered).  Additionally, significant work experience is now also being required by many schools and fields.

2.  Getting a PhD is far from just taking notes and studying.  That would be your typical grad school or undergrad formula.  The entire idea behind obtaining a PhD is to demonstrate ones ability to critically think about old ideas, to think of new ideas, to formulate theory, to test that theory and finally to explain the results or lack there of.  This usually requires aside from a deep understanding of ones field,  a statistical knowledge way beyond what most of us know and use on a day to day basis. Granted I'm speaking from the perspective of having obtained a PhD in Accounting.

3.  Most PhD. are fully funded. That is, as a student I was on a full ride and I got a generous salary on top.  This obviously makes getting into a program very difficult and competitive. At my old school (Michigan State U) about 1-50 applications got accepted to the Accounting PhD program.  Now maybe that is not impressive, but when you consider that the pool generally consist of people with 700 GMAT scores, and 4.0's GPA and a list of other achievements, its pretty dog-on impressive that one gets accepted to an Accounting doctoral program. In fact only about 60-70 people a year in the entire US earn a PhD. in Accounting. This reflects the small number of students accpeted into the one of 77 programs in the US.

4.  I will agree that you need tons of perseverance and next to intellect that is number 2 in the "must haves" to obtain a PhD.  In fact, that is where the big differences come in.  There are a lot of smart people in the world, and usually they get by pretty easily, however, to get a PhD, you must be smart and also have a lot of perseverance. This combination is not easily found.   In fact after getting accepted to a program, perseverance is what gets you through-given you have the gray matter to do the work.

So again, I'm not picking a fight.  I'm just saying I understand your comments, but Aaron’s comments have nothing to do with his PhD.  Other than my specialty, I'm a normal person with normal thought processes.  PhD's are smart enough to know they are not experts outside their fields. So anything a person says here on this board (PhD or not) should be taken as a mans opinion and nothing more.  

Finally, there some schools (distance learning based) that have easier ways to get a PhD.  However, I think Aaron went to Penn State which is a Big Ten School like Michigan State, Michigan etc.  Getting a PhD from a school like this is considered to World Class in the world of academia.  You might not like him or me for that matter, but one thing is you have to respect him for his craft.  Which is not related to this board so again, anything a person says should not be tied to their profession? It’s two different things.

As for the psychology guy that cuts your grass. Their field is very competitive (too many PhD's) so that might explain it.  Also he may not have actually finished his Doctorate.  He may also have foreced out of academia due to his inability to publish or perhaps worse.  The fact is I don't know why he cuts grass for a living.  The best way is to ask him. The real fact is it really doesn't matter to the agrugment.  There are no absolutes in the world.

Chat later

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The problem with the "e..., posted by Onephd on Jan 6, 2005

"I will agree that you need tons of perseverance and next to intellect that is number 2 in the "must haves" to obtain a PhD. In fact, that is where the big differences come in. There are a lot of smart people in the world, and usually they get by pretty easily, however, to get a PhD, you must be smart and also have a lot of perseverance. This combination is not easily found. In fact after getting accepted to a program, perseverance is what gets you through-given you have the gray matter to do the work".

I would rank perseverance as the number one quality. I think it goes without saying a certain amount of brain power is necessary, I disagree if you think only the best are in doctorate programs. My grandfather who only had an 8th grade education is the most intelligent man that I've met in life, my brother is self taught in the world of communication/computers. He hasn't made less than 100k since he was 22 and now he rakes in more than most CEO's of mid size companies. I am convinced that the most gifted athletes are not competing in the NHL, NBA, NFL, etc. Those guys had a plan and the perseverance to stick with their plan. others were just damn lucky. Can you say serendipity! The same applies to those with doctorates. I certainly do not believe that the most gifted minds are interested in obtaining a PhD. I do believe many do it for personal reasons and not to better the interest of mankind. Dr Aaron comes to mind! If only all were so noble as you state. I respect anyone who has a plan and executes. I know a woman that has worked for Walgreen since she completed high school, today with her stock options and her participation in company offered retirement plans she is worth more than 1 1/2 million and she is still way too young to retire. That was always her plan, she was laughed at and scorned for not going to college, but she stuck to her plan. Perseverance! PhD's like doctors for the most part have that nose in the air attitude that I despise. I have nothing but respect for any that has a plan and executes. I have no respect for anyone that thinks their shit don't stink. That includes members of any class, educated or not.
Plan, execute, persevere. That is a helluva game plan and I applaud your efforts and dr Aarons's for sticking it out. Now to find a latina that really understands what you sacrificed and can relate intellectually! Call me when that happens.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the &qu..., posted by slojas1 on Jan 6, 2005

I hear you on that.  I agree with your comments in general. My Grandfather only went to the 4th grade.  Trust me, I don't judge or think that my shit doesn't stink.  I was not throwing anything into anyone’s face.  I simply responded to a post.  

No I don't think that all the best people in the world are in Doctoral programs, I’m not knocking those that work in corporate as I have done it myself. I was just trying to say that getting a PhD is not just about being smart or just about having perseverance, its about having both qualities. Some people are very smart but because they are smart, they sometimes never really have to work hard and those people usually flunk out of grad school or a doctoral program. Bascially they don't have good study skills and have never developed perservance. They have gone through life not having been challeged. The flip side is that there are some people that are not very smart but have tons of perseverance.  Those will not make it in a Doctoral program either. They will exceed at other things and do so better than anyone else.  I'm just saying you need both skill sets.  That was the point of my post which I think you fully understand.  Everyone has a path in ife.  no path is better ro worse than anyone.  

Some people make great race car drivers and some make great fighter pilots.  The two are very different in many ways and offer different views of the world.  Some people like to study the stars from earth and some would like to take a space shuttle to the moon.  Neither one is better than the other.  Different perspectives different paths in life.

Oh yeah, I'm not looking for a Latina with a PhD or someone that can "relate" to me intellectually. I’m just looking for a good person with a good heart and common sense.  

Again not picking a fight.  I think this post has gotten out of hand. ha ha ha.   Didn't mean to offend anyone.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The problem with the "e..., posted by Onephd on Jan 6, 2005

I know this is off-topic, but as the horse has already been beaten to death, I don't think it matters........
I just finished my last 5th year class and my profesora made a plea during the end concerning how we should all consider continuing on to a doctorate, as there is (according to her) a  severe shortage of PHd's in that area.  She acknowledged that academia is usually where these graduates end up working, and that there is much more $$ to be made with a lessor degree in private industry.  However, the schedule that teaching provides is appealing to me and something that I've considered.  Is it common to find compensation programs to defray the cost of attending these programs??  

On a more relevant note - I met a 31 y/o chica from Cali last night in a chat room and ended up chatting til about 2am!!  She was amazed at my ability to chat in Spanish, and her pic showed her to be a real cutie!  Really got my mind thinking about getting down there - but not sure how my current Cubana novia would like that (actually - I'm VERY sure how she would like that................coño)!!

--gk

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the &qu..., posted by gkdrummer on Jan 6, 2005

most schools fund their doctoral programs so that the students get free tuition and some kind of a small salary to pay rent.  Its not much.  If you are lucky and I was, there are external funding opportunities to add on to your salary that the school gives you.  

What field are you in?  I can better answer you if I know that.  Yes there is a shortage of PhD's in general. That leads to high salarises  

Business School professsors are 100K and up.  Finance and Accounting are the highest, Marketing is probably the lowest.)

Engineering Phds are about 75K and up(last time I checked and that was a few years ago)

Law school professors earn 85K and up(that was about 2 years ago)

English on the other hand is like 35-40K

Communcications is like 40-50K a year.

The salaries vary according to what you do.

All these are 9 month salaries and when you are bigger schools you can add 22% for a summer salary.  this is money for you NOT to work, but do research.  Thus you get paid not to teach in the summmer. if you are at a smaller teaching school, you can teach summer school and earn the 22%.  Its a strange set up I know.  

Also if you in some fields many professors get grants to do research and also supplement their income.

You are correct, its a lifestyle choice and people that do this don't do it for the money.  You have to like doing research and answering today most important question.  For example in Business, the Balanced Score Card (a tool used to evaluate managers and executives) was created by two Business professors at Havard about 10-12 years ago.  Sometimes B-School professors study how incentive plans work at motivating executives and employees work ethic.  There are all kinds of things you get to do and discover.  

If you like asking questions and really wondering how things work in the world at the macro level then a PhD could be for you.  

Contact me offline if you want to chat about it.  and you are right, the topic has been beaten to death. ha ha ha.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the..., posted by Onephd on Jan 6, 2005

My BA is in Business Admin, with a concentration of Accounting.  I'm a little surprised that you didn't surmise that when I said I just finished my "5th year" - you know, the Ed requirement to sit for the CPA exam! (which I will be doing this year)
I am interested in picking your brain a bit more on the subject, but didn't see an email addy in your profile.  How can I reach you?

--gk

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with..., posted by gkdrummer on Jan 6, 2005

You know I did catch that but so many students are taking 5 years to complete any degree I didn't want to assume.

I thought my email was there but its.

tjp1967@hotmail.com

Trust me, a phd in Accounting will grant you a great lifestyle.  I'll fill you in when you write to me.

one

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The problem with the "e..., posted by Onephd on Jan 6, 2005

"PhD's are smart enough to know they are not experts outside their fields. So anything a person says here on this board (PhD or not) should be taken as a mans opinion and nothing more. "

Thank you. I am not trying to knock the work that goes into getting a doctorate. My mother was a teacher and got her PhD before she retired because it was a goal of hers. She worked very hard for it and I respect that. It just upsets me for someone to constantly spout off about it like they found the holy grail and act like they are an expert on everything and now somehow different than everyone else because of it. I wasn't around when Dr Aaron was here before. From the jist of the conversations about that period, maybe that's just his way.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the &qu..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

I also am put off by Dr. Aaron's pomposity.  He seems to think that he is the only person who has ever earned a PhD, or is now somehow qualified to lord it over others who have not (yet) earned PhD's.  He gives other PhD's a bad name.  

Like Onephd, I have earned a doctorate in economics and teach in a business school.  Not only do I lack expertise in other fields, I also lack expertise in other areas of specialization besides my own WITHIN the economics field.  The level of specialization of education and training at this level is so focused and narrow that our knowledge is useless outside that narrow area.  I guarantee that if a lay person asks a PhD specific questions in his/her field, the majority of answers will be "I don't know."  

My specialization is within micro-economics.  Ask me about Greenspan, the Federal Reserve, interest rates, and monetary policy and I will give you a blank stare and a shoulder shrug!!!

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the..., posted by Brazilophile on Jan 6, 2005

1. Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.

2. An economist? That a fellow who’s been to school and studied these kinds of things, and his guess is ALMOST as good as yours.

And from Woddie Guthrie--
After all, what is money?
Don't know, never had none.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the..., posted by Brazilophile on Jan 6, 2005

well said.

I have to admit that I never got that impression from reading Aarons posts however.  

but thats me.  anyway,lets put this post to bed.

Good night..

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem with the &qu..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

I hear you.

no harm no foul.  

... in response to Re: Re: The problem with the "educa..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

[This message has been edited by Dr Aaron]

. Nevermind. It's a waste of time explaining to you.

I haven't made any self-rightous comment on the board since I re-started posting.

I made some assertive criticisms, but none of them had self-rightous tones.

Your response to my post was based on a personal grude that you have against me; and you cannot provide a reasonable counter argument to my statement or opinion.  

You made all these cross-cultural and historical analyses, which were partially correct at the most, but we live in the 21st century in the USA, and I intend to be a law abiding citizen wherever I go in this world.

The USA has been bad-mouthed enough over the last 4 years in different places in the world; and I feel responsible to provide a decent example and role model for the values my country and flag claim to hold dear so other people can see the beauty of America and the American people.

Take Care,
Aaron

... in response to I'm qualified, and you're ...., posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 6, 2005

I hate to break the new to you but I think most of the old posters are gone
that remember you. If they were still here I don't think you would last long. I
don't know how Soltero can have a grudge against you since he came on this
forum well after you got kicked off the first time. I think everyone here has
posted what they think of your self rightous comments... I think everyone agrees
about the point of the girl is too young 16 years but then you fell off the
wagon... Unwrap yourself from the flag and the best thing you could do when
you are overseas is act like a normal human being not one with a PHD that way
maybe they will not talk bad about us...

... in response to I'm qualified, and you're ...., posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 6, 2005

[This message has been edited by soltero]

You are correct. Explaining it to me would be a waste of time since I understood it the first time around. I didn't disagree with you, I just didn't like your "tone". I don't have a grudge against you, because I don't know you, and a grudge requires more interaction than a few posts on a forum. I wasn't trying to provide a counter to your argument, because I agreed with it (All of that other stuff was a sidebar between me and Malandro). I just didn't agree with the way that you presented it. It just seemed a little pious to me. The US will continue to be bad mouthed as long as we are on top. It goes with the territory. When that stops, we will be in more trouble than not. It is funny that as much "bad mouthing" there is, people are still breaking their necks to slip in here, isn't it? Trust me, they could care less if you are standing there waving a flag while they are trying to get by the border patrol. As far as you being qualified, qualified to do what? Give your opinion? I didn't know they gave out doctorates for that. I want one too. Every teenager in the country knows what the age of consent here is. How long did it take you to research to prepare to give your qualified opinion? Or do you have a juris doctorate and were lecturing us on the fine point of international pedophilia and the repercussions thereof because a 16 year old wants a better life and will probably sit on that site a minimum of 2 more years because no one in their right mind would call her for an interview? The people that may have needed to hear your speech won't care anyway. It's nice to know that you care, though.

Also, as far as the cross cultural and historical analysis, "Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it".  I have been a member of the National Historical Society since I was 7 years old. Geeky, I know, but I love history. It doesn't matter what century this is. People don't change. Never have and probably never will. As long as you understand whatever is written here is opinion whether it's yours or mine, and also that opinions are like a**holes and everybody has one (sans qualifications), we will do fine.

... in response to The problem with the "educated"..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

my understanding is that the missionaries likely saved countless savages from being slaughtered.  thus, many latin american countries still contain signficant populations of natives if not majority populations.  the colonization of the US on the other hand involved no such widescale attempt at conversion and tolerance.

... in response to the Missionaries wiped out more cultures..., posted by Malandro on Jan 5, 2005

[This message has been edited by soltero]

"the missionaries likely saved countless savages from being slaughtered..."

Depends on perception...that of the missionaries, or that of the "savages". This post will be waaayyyy to long. You have to look at the missionary's role in the total scheme of things. Who always followed the missionaries after they worked their conversion and "pacified" the "savages"? Hmmmmm? Food for thought. As far as the colonization of the US, you have to go back to the 1600's, look up how the French Jesuit Missionaries affected the Hurons and the Iroquois (where are they now?), among others and take it from there. I didn't say people, I said CULTURES...even though religion as a whole is responsible for more deaths throughout history than anything else, but that is again, another lengthy post, and I don't have time to write a dissertation here.

... in response to Re: the Missionaries wiped out more cult..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

was Stalin following?  Which religion was Mao Tse Dung persuing? Or Lenin? Or Pol Pot? Or Hitler? I'll make a wager with you that more people died in the 20th century under atheistic, despotic regimes than all others killed in the name of religion.

... in response to Which religion..., posted by surfscum on Jan 5, 2005

[This message has been edited by soltero]

You were going fine until you mentioned Hitler. His main push was religous persecution of the Jews. Although the others may have had dogmas of their own, religion has been used by many a would be dictator to get the masses to swallow his agenda. Has been since the first guy put a rock on a stump and prayed to it. I am sorry, but when I think of the history of the world, I go back a little further than the 20th century, and yes, I could bring up the Crusades, the Inquisition, and a few others that made all those combined look like slaps on the wrist. I am not inventing any of this. Look it up. Draw your own conclusions. I am not saying that religion in itself is responsible for these atrocities. Just saying that many attrocities have been inflicted on the world using religion as a banner. It has really been about power, and to circle this back to the original post minus that one sentence, no one has the power to judge anyone else. Disagree? Sure. Condone? Definitely not if it is outside of your own mores. Judge? Who gave any of us that right? I don't know what religion you follow, and I don't care. Tolerance is taught by them all to a degree, and all I was originally saying is don't act like what you believe is the only way to believe or be.

... in response to Re: Which religion..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

Hitler had a RACIAL hatred of the Jews.  It didn't have to do with their religion, it had to do with their ancestry. I reiterate my point: take all the people killed by the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 30 years war etc., and you will only arrive at a fraction of those killed in the 20th century be atheistic leaders.

And then you say that those atrocities were made the Nazi's etc., like slaps on the wrist? What history book are you reading? Have you not read about the medical "experiments" of the Nazi's? The stories of those who lived to tell about their tortures in Siberia, N. Korea, even modern-day China?

At least you clarify that religion itself may not condone these actions.  You're right, it is mostly about power and was used to justify a political ambition.

... in response to Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by surfscum on Jan 6, 2005

Judaism is a religion. There is no race of Jews. Just as there is no race of Christians or Muslims. What history books are YOU reading? The Spanish Inquisition started in 1483 and didn't end until 1834. That's 351 years. Many of the "experiments" that the Nazi's performed were perfected during the Inquisition. Nobody has re-invented the wheel on torture. They may have added some new twists, but the general methods of parting flesh from bone and mangling bodies are as old as humanity. I am not going to list every altercation where religion was used as justification since the beginning of recorded history. I was giving examples. If you want to continue to stand by your point, I don't have issue with that. It's your point. If you don't see any validity in mine, then I don't see that changing.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

The Jews ARE a race.  Ever heard of anti-semitism? They are a semitic peoeple, like the arabs. Hitler's hatred was racially based, remember his vaulted Aryan race?

... in response to Your ignorance is showing!, posted by surfscum on Jan 6, 2005

Too funny. Ignorant? Chew on this and get back to me...I would really like to hear your response...you won't let it die, will you? Incredible!!! (Remember (or did you even know) that there were TWELVE tribes of Israel, not just the Semites as they were only one of the tribes.)

Who are the Falasha? It depends upon your prospective;

To The Beita Yisrael (The Jews of Ethiopia/ Abyssinia/ Cush); their history, sacred texts, and religious traditions span thousands of years. Their practice of the religion of Avraham, Yitzach and Ya’acov traces a clear bloodline to the House of David HaMelech through his son Shlomo HaMelech. Their beliefs state that they are the remnants of an ancient Jewish culture which began with the union in 935 B.C.E., of Shlomo HaMelech (King Solomon), king of ancient Israel (reigned 961-922 B.C.E.), second son of David, king of Judah and Israel, and Bathsheba (see 1 Kings 10:1-13, 2 Samuel 12:24). and the third most important convert to Judaism in the Torah, after Yithro and Ruth, Makeida Nigist Saba (The Queen of Saba/Sheba). In fact, for over a thousand years, after news of the destruction of the Holy Temple in Yerushali’im by the Romans (70 C.E.), the Beita Yisrael believed that they were the only Jews left in the world!

To the interested observer; they are an ancient tribe of aboriginal Jews from Ethiopia, who were cut off from the outside word until modern times, and who, for the past 20 years, have been going through the unique trials and tribulations of mass emigration to the land of Israel and assimilation into a modern cosmopolitan society, and world.

Following is a brief synopsis of "The Falasha, The Beautiful People of the Book".

Let us start by determining just who the "Falasha" are?

The term "Falasha (or Phalasha, Fr)" is an Amharic word meaning several things, "stranger", "exiles", "landless ones" or in the original Ethiopian context "Ones who set themselves apart from others." Falashas themselves refer to their sect as Beita Yisrael ("House of Israel"). In Ethiopia, they are also referred to as "ayhud", = "Jews".

In current terminology, the word Falasha is primarily only used among Ethiopian Jews themselves, to describe an individual who still practices Ethiopian Jewish religious traditions in its original classical form. Similar to the " term Hareidi, as a used to describe some Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Among Qessotch the word Falasha also refers to certain esoteric rituals and practices only performed by them and certain male elders.

A dictionary definition is; Fa.la.sha (fe-la1she, fa-) noun, plural Falasha or Fa"la"shas Offensive. Used as a disparaging term for an Ethiopian Jew. [Amharic falasha, from falasi, stranger.]

Origins & History Of The Tribe of Falasha

Falashas, a native Semitic/Hamitic people Jewish sect of Ethiopia.

According to Ethiopian Jewish history and tradition, the story began almost three thousand years ago, somewhere between 961 and 922 Before The Common Era.

The primary Falasha tradition claims to trace their ancestry to Menelik I, son of Shlomo HaMelech [King Solomon] of Israel and Makeida Nigist Saba [the queen of Sheba], and Levites and other Israelites who migrated to Ethiopia, biblically known as Midian or Cush, principally from the tribe of Dan. .

Solomon, Shlomo HaMelech, King of ancient Israel (reigned 961-922 B.C.E. (BC)), second son of David, king of Judah and Israel, and Bathsheba (see 2 Samuel 12:24). In later Jewish and Muslim literature Solomon appears not only as the wisest of sages but as one gifted with the power to control the spirits of the invisible world. He is frequently noted in history and literature as the builder of the Temple.

Solomon succeeded his father despite the claims of Adoniyah, his older half brother (see 1 Kings 1: 1-40). He divided Israel into 12 parts for administrative purposes, and his territory extended "from the river [Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt" (4:21). He made slaves of the Canaanites who remained in the land (9:20-21) and formed an alliance with Hiram (flourished 10th century BC), king of Tyre (now Sur, Lebanon). In return for food, Hiram furnished him with timber, and the ships of the allies went out trading together. The Temple, completed in about seven years, was built in great splendor with Hiram’s aid and dedicated with much magnificence (see 1 Kings 8).

Solomon’s distinguishing quality was as an administrator. He kept the united kingdom largely intact, strengthened its fortifications, and made alliances not only with Tyre, but also with several other nations surrounding Israel. Commerce, consisting of trade by caravan and by sea, and an extensive copper-mining industry were encouraged by the international intercourse. Contact with other nations also resulted in a marked intellectual advance, and it may be assumed that genuine literary activity was carried on. Solomon himself is traditionally regarded as an author of high skill and remarkable output. The writings that have been ascribed to him are the biblical Proverbs, the Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, the Wisdom of Solomon, and the later Psalms of Solomon and Odes of Solomon. Modern scholars have determined, however, that several were written centuries later. The Odes, indeed, are possibly of Gnostic Christian authorship.

Despite his reputation for wisdom, it would seem that Solomon’s extravagance and disregard for his people were partly responsible for the later disruption of the kingdom. Outside conditions, moreover, contributed to his original success. The larger empires were preoccupied with their own affairs, and Israel’s trade and industry flourished in the absence of extensive warfare.

Saba’,

Hebrew Sheba, ancient kingdom of southwestern Arabia (now Southern Ethiopia and the Republic of Yemen) mentioned in the Bible, most notably in the story about the meeting between King Solomon and Makeida Nigist Saba, the queen of Sheba (see 1 Kings 10:1-13).

The inhabitants of Saba’, the Sabaeans, spoke a language in the Hebraic-Arabic group of the southern branch of the Semitic languages. The kingdom probably originated about the 10th century B.C.E. (BC), and it was one of the most powerful states in southern Arabia until about 115 B.C.E. (BC), when the Himyarites gained ascendancy. Its capital and chief city (7th century-2nd century B.C.E. (BC)) occupied the site of present-day Ma’rib, east of Sanaa, the capital of Yemen. At the height of its development, in the 8th century B.C.E. (BC), the kingdom of Saba’ maintained colonies along trade routes leading to Palestine, and Ma’rib was one of the wealthiest cities of ancient Arabia.

However, some scholars place the date of their origin before the 2d century B.C.E. [BC], largely because the Falashas are largely unfamiliar with either the Babylonian or Palestinian Talmud.

According to Ethiopian Jewish history, contact was continued with Eretz Yisrael until the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E.

See "History" for more details

Their Jewish Religion

The religion of the Falashas is a modified form of Mosaic Judaism unaffected generally by postbiblical developments.

Their scriptures include the Old Testament and certain apocryphal books. The Bible of the Falashas, The Orit, is written in an archaic Semitic dialect, known as Ge’ez, and the Hebrew Scriptures were unknown to them until approximately 1921.

The Falashas retain animal sacrifice. They celebrate scriptural and nonscriptural feast days, although the latter are not the same as those celebrated by other Jewish groups.

One of the Falasha nonscriptural feast days, for example, is the Commemoration of Abraham.

The Falashas have a number of unique religious traditions which are based upon their interpretations directly from the Orit/Torah. Such as their custom that the Brith Milah should be performed by a son’s father, after the necessary instruction by a Qes. This is based upon the fact that Avraham Avinu, himself, performed the first Brith Milah, on Yishmael and Yitzach, and that Tzipporah, an Ethiopian, performed the Brith Milah on the son of Moshe Rabeinu, thereby saving his life because of his dereliction of duty of the covenant.

The Sabbath regulations of the Falashas are stringent. They observe biblical dietary laws, but not the postbiblical rabbinic regulations concerning distinctions between meat and dairy foods. They also have different interpretations of the definition of scales and fins in determining what are fish. Shrimp and lobster are considered by them to be fish.

See "Holy Writings" for more details (hyper-link to "Holy Writings Page")

Marriage outside the religious community is forbidden. Any Falasha who marries a non-Jew or accepts Coptic Christianity or another religion is considered to have died by his family and village. A funeral is performed and all of that person’s personal belongings are buried.

Monogamy is practiced, marriage at a very early age is rare, although unions between adolescents are often arraigned between parents or families to be consummated years later, and high moral standards are maintained.

The centers of Falasha religious life is the masjid, or synagogue and the mikvah. Falashas believe they become ritually unclean if they come into physical contact with non-Jews, and men do not come into physical contact with women out side of their families. In the case of contamination by non-Jews a Falasha’s clothes are buried or burned, and in either case a mikvah must be taken before one can reenter the community.

The chief functionary in each village is the high priest, or Qes, who is assisted by lower priests.

Falasha monks, unique among all other forms of Judaism, live alone or in monasteries, isolated from other Falashas. It is believed that they study and practice an ancient form of the Kabbalah with additional influences from the beliefs and practices of the Esseans.

Rabbis, as such, do not exist among the Falashas. The religious leader(s) of each village in Ethiopia were, and in Israel are, called a Qes [Qessotch, pl. Amharic, sometimes-spelled Kes]. In Israel these Qessotch have a formal structure headed by Chief Qes/Rabbi, Qes/Rabbi Yoseph HaDana, who was born in Israel, an who was ordained an Orthodox Rabbi in Israel in 1978. Additionally, there are a significant number of Qessotch who have had structured rabbinical training in Israel, and are considered by most orthodox standards and institutions to be Rabbis. Incidentally, at this point in time, all Rabbis ordained from within the Conservative and Reform movements, are not considered to be Rabbis by Israeli Orthodox standards. They are treated as ordinary Jews.

The Falashas lived either in separate villages, primarily in the Gondar region north of Lake Tana, or in separate quarters in Christian or Muslim towns in other parts of Ethiopia.

They were skilled in business trade, import/export trading, goldsmithing, agriculture, masonry, pottery, ironworking, and weaving.

Any Falasha, who converts to another religion, i.e. Coptic Christianity or Islam is considered to be a Falash Murah (Traitor to the faith), and is considered dead within the community.

Under Haile Selassie I, a few Falashas rose to positions of prominence in education and government, but reports of persecution followed the emperor’s ouster in 1974.

Recognized in 1975 by the Chief Rabbinate as Jews and allowed to settle in Israel.

More than 12,000 Falashas were airlifted to Israel from refugee camps in Sudan as part of the Israeli government’s "Operation Moses" and the U.S. government’s "Operation Sheba" in late 1984 and early 1985, when the Sudanese and Ethiopian governments halted the program.

The airlift resumed in 1989, and about 3500 Falashas emigrated to Israel in 1990.

Nearly all of the more than 14,000 Falashas remaining in Ethiopia were evacuated by the Israeli government’s "Operation Solomon" in May 1991.

The Falashas themselves say that they are direct descendants from the family of Abraham, the first Jew.

Terah, Abraham’s father, came from the land of Ur of the Chaldees which was located in the southern part of the Euphrates.

The Chaldees were one of many Kushite tribes of the region and Kushite means Black according to the Biblical dictionary.

The Kushites were descended from Kush a son of Ham.

Godfrey Higgins, an English expert on antiquities stated in his book: "The Chaldees were originally Negroes"

We believe that our people are "a" Fabled ‘Lost Tribe Of Israel’, who else, in all of Judaism can trace their ancestry and lineage, unbroken for thousands of years, to Shlomo HaMelech’s Temple? But make your own mind up The

Humble Lion.

But once they were kings. . .

"Once they were kings. A half million strong, they matched their faith with fervor and out-matched the Moslem and Christian tribesmen around them to rule the mountain highlands around Lake T’ana. They called themselves Beita Israel—the house of Israel—and used the Torah to guide their prayers and memories of the heights of Jerusalem as they lived in their thatched huts in Ethiopia.

But their neighbors called them Falashas—the alien ones, the invaders. And even three hundred years of rule, even the black features that matched those of all the people around them did not make the Jews of Ethiopia secure governors of their destiny in Africa." (Falashas: The Forgotten Jews, Baltimore Jewish Times, 9 November 1979)

For centuries, the world Jewish community was not even aware of the existence of the Jewish community of Ethiopia in the northern province of Gondar. The miracle of Operation Solomon is only now being fully understood; an ancient Jewish community has been brought back from the edge of government-imposed exile and starvation.

For over two thousand years Ethiopia was a Jewish nation, in that the ruling monarchy considered themselves Jewish and direct descendants of King Solomon. Judaism was the national religion, and most of the population practiced Judaism.

Christianity spread through the Axum dynasty of Ethiopia in the 4th century C.E. [AD]. By the 7th century, however, Islam had surpassed Christianity and had separated Ethiopia from its Christian African neighbors.

Prior to this, the Beita Israel had enjoyed relative independence through the Middle Ages. Their reign was threatened in the 13th century C.E. [AD] under the Axumite (Aksumite) Solomonic Empire, and intermittent fighting continuing for the next three centuries with other tribes.

In 1624, the Beita Israel fought what would be their last battle for independent autonomy against Portuguese- backed Axumite Ethiopians. A graphic eyewitness account described the battle:

"Falash a men and women fought to the death from the steep heights of their fortress... they threw themselves over the precipice or cut each other’s throats rather than be taken prisoner—it was a Falasha Masada. [The rebel leaders] burned all of the Falasha’s written history and all of their religious books, it was an attempt to eradicate forever the Judaic memory of Ethiopia."

Those Jews captured alive were sold into slavery, forced to be baptized, and denied the right to own land. The independence of the Beita Israel was torn from them just as it was from their Israeli brethren at Masada centuries before.

The Falasha then undertook a historic migration over the Simian Mountains into the region of Ethiopia, known as the "Birth of the Nile". Many thousands of souls died along the way. The trek took approximately 10 years to complete. Not unlike the trek the ancient Israelites took in the desert of Sinai over a thousand years before. They settled in and around the Lake Tana in what is now called the Gondar region. With this natural barrier between them and their Coptic and Islamic countrymen, they enjoyed a measure of autonomy and peace.

Modern Contact

The first modern contact with the now oppressed community came in 1769, when Scottish explorer James Bruce stumbled upon them while searching for the source of the Nile River. His estimates at the time placed the Beita Israel population at 100,000, already greatly decreased from an estimate from centuries before of a half-million.

Little additional contact was made with the community, but in 1935 their stability was greatly threatened as the Italian army marched into Ethiopia. Ethiopia’s ruler, Emperor Haile Selassie fled his country and actually took refuge in Jerusalem for a short time. Selassie returned to power in 1941, but the situation for the Beita Israel improved little.

In 1947, Ethiopia abstained on the United Nations Partition Plan for the British Mandate of Palestine, which ~, reestablished the State of Israel. By 1955, the non-governmental Jewish Agency of Israel had already begun construction of schools and a teacher’s seminary for the Beita Israel in Ethiopia.

In 1956, Ethiopia and Israel established consular relations, which were improved in 1961 when the two countries established full diplomatic ties. Positive relations between Israel and Ethiopia existed until 1973 when, in the wake of the Yom Kippur War, Ethiopia (and 28 African nations) broke diplomatic relations with Israel under the threat of an Arab oil embargo.

The Mengistu Threat

Months later, Emperor Selassie’s regime ended in a coup d’etat. Colonel Mengistu Haile Mariam, whose Marxist-Leninist dictatorship increased the threat to the Beita Israel, replaced Selassie. During the weeks surrounding Mariam’s coup, an estimated 2,500 Jews were killed and 7,000 became homeless.

Soon Mariam instituted a policy of "villagization": relocating millions of peasant farmers onto state-run cooperatives. This policy greatly harmed the Beita Israel by forcing them to "share" their villages (even though they were denied the right to own the land) with non-Jewish farmers, resulting in increased levels of anti- Semitism throughout the Gondar Province. According to the Ethiopian government, over 30% of the population had been moved from privately owned farms to cooperatives as of 1989.

After taking office in 1977, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was eager to facilitate the rescue of Ethiopia’s Jews, and so Israel entered into a period of selling arms to the Mariam government in hopes that Ethiopia would allow Jews to leave for Israel. In 1977, Begin asked President Mengistu to allow 200 Ethiopian Jews to leave for Israel aboard an Israeli military jet that had emptied its military cargo and was returning to Israel. Mariam agreed, and that may have been the precursor to the mass exodus of Operation Moses.

In the early 1980’s, Ethiopia forbade the practice of Judaism and the teaching of Hebrew.

Numerous members of the Beita Israel were imprisoned on fabricated charges of being "Zionist spies," and Jewish religious leaders, Qessotch (sing. Qes or Kes), were harassed and monitored by the government.

The situation remained exceedingly bleak through the early 1980’s. Forced conscription at age 12 took many Jewish boys away from their parents, some never to be heard from again. Additionally, with the constant threat of war, famine, and horrendous health conditions (Ethiopia has one of the world’s worst infant mortality rates and doctor to patient ratios), the Beita Israel’s position became more precarious as time progressed.

The government began to slightly soften its treatment of the Jews, however, during the mid-1980’s when terrible famines wreaked havoc on the economy. Ethiopia was forced to ask Western nations for famine relief, including the United States of America and Israel, allowing them both to exert a modicum of pressure for the release of the Beita Israel.

Over 8,000 Beita Israel came to Israel between 1977 and 1984. But these efforts pale in comparison with the modern exodus that took place during 1984’s Operation Moses.

Operation Moses and Solomon

Under a news blackout for security reasons, Operation Moses began on November 18, 1984 and ended six weeks later on January 5, 1985. In that time, almost 10,000 Jews were rescued and brought to Israel.

But the mission was not without problems. Because of news leaks (blamed primarily on a December 6th article in the Washington Jewish Week and full-page advertisements placed by the United Jewish Appeal), the mission ended prematurely as Arab nations pressured the Sudanese government to prevent any more Jews from using Sudan to go to Israel. Almost 15,0000 Jews were left behind in Ethiopia.

Thus, by the end of Operation Moses in January 1985, almost two-thirds of the Beita Israel remained in Ethiopia. They were comprised almost entirely of women, young children, and the sick, since only the strongest members of the community were encouraged to make the harrowing trek to Sudan where the airlift actually occurred. In addition, many young boys were encouraged to make the dangerous trek to freedom due to the low age of conscription, often as young as age twelve.

As Babu Yakov, a Beita Israel leader, summed up, "Those who could not flee are the sick and infants. Those least capable of defending themselves are now facing their enemies alone."

In 1985, then Vice President George Bush, former head of the CIA, arranged a CIA-sponsored follow-up mission to Operation Moses. Operation Sheba/Joshua brought an additional 2800 Beita Israel from Sudan to Israel. But in the following five years, a virtual stalemate occurred in the rescue of Ethiopian Jewry. All efforts on behalf of the Beita Israel fell on the closed ears of the Mariam dictatorship.

Meanwhile, those Jews who were separated from their loved ones while attempting to adjust to Israeli society.

The new arrivals spent between six months and two years in absorption centers learning Hebrew, being retrained for Israel’s industrial society, and learning how to live in a modern society (most Ethiopian villages’ had no running water or electricity). Suicide, all but unheard of in their tukuls in Ethiopia, even claimed a few of the new arrivals due to the anxiety of separation and departure.

Over 1,600 "orphans of circumstance" lived day to day separated from their families, not knowing the fate of their parents, brothers, sisters, and loved ones.

See "Pictures that speak" for more details (hyper-link to "Pictures that speak Page") Operation Solomon - The Fulfillment of a Dream

The grim prospect of thousands of Jewish children growing up separated from their parents in Israel almost became a reality. Little could be done to persuade the Mariam government to increase the trickle of Jews leaving Ethiopia in the years between Operations Sheba/Joshua and Solomon. But in November 1990, Ethiopia and Israel reached an agreement that would allow Ethiopian Jews to move to Israel under the context of family reunification. It soon became clear, however, that Mengistu was willing to allow Ethiopian Jews to leave outside of the guise of reunification. November and December 1990 showed increased numbers of Ethiopians leaving for Israel. The Ethiopian Jews were finally ready to come home.

In early 1991, Eritrean and Tigrean rebels began a concerted attack on Mengistu forces; meeting with surprising success for the first time since the civil war began in 1975. With the rebel armies advancing each day, Colonel Mengistu Haile Mariam fled his country in early May. Rebels claimed control of the capital Addis Ababa shortly thereafter, and the situation of the Beita Israel took top priority in Israel. The Likud government of Yitzhak Shamir authorized a special permit for the Israeli airline, EI AI, to fly on the Jewish Sabbath. On Friday, May 24th, and continuing non-stop for 36 hours, a total of 34 EI AI jumbo jets and Hercules C-130s—seats removed to accommodate the maximum number of Ethiopians—began a new chapter in the struggle for the freedom of Ethiopian Jewry.

Operation Solomon, named for the king from whom one of the theories suggest that the Beita Israel draw their lineage, ended almost as quickly as it began. Timing was crucial, since any delay by Israel could have allowed the rebels to hold the Jews as bargaining chips with Israel or the United States. A total of 14,324 Ethiopian Jews were rescued and resettled in Israel, a modern exodus of the grandest design. Operation Solomon rescued twice the number of Jews in Operation Moses and Sheba/Joshua, in a mere fraction of the time. Though it is too early to predict their impact on Israeli society, the 56,000 Ethiopian Jews now living in Israel (rescue efforts are under way to transport the remaining 2,100 Ethiopians who wish to emigrate to Israel) will play an important role in Israel for generations to come.

Authentic Jews

Because much of the Beita Israel’s history is passed orally from generation to generation, we may never truly know their origins. Four main theories exist concerning the beginnings of the Beita Israel community:

1) The Beita Israel may be the lost Israelite tribe of Dan.

2) They may be descendants of Menelik I, son of King Solomon and Queen Sheba.

3) They may be descendants of Ethiopian Christians and pagans who converted to Judaism centuries ago.

4) They may be descendants of Jews who fled Israel for Egypt after the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. and eventually settled in Ethiopia.

Without regard as to which theory may actually be correct (and each theory has its support), the authenticity of the "Jewishness" of the community became an issue. ‘

As early as the 16th century, Egypt’s Chief Rabbi David ben Solomon ibn Avi Zimra (Radbaz) declared that in Halachic (Jewish legal) issues, the Beita Israel were indeed Jews. In 1855, Daniel ben Hamdya, a member of the Beita Israel, was the first Ethiopian Jew to visit Israel, meeting with a council of rabbis in Jerusalem concerning the authenticity of the Beita Israel. By 1864, almost all leading Jewish authorities, most notably Rabbi Azriel Hildesheimer of Eisenstadt, Germany, accepted the Beita Israel as true Jews. In 1908 the chief rabbis of forty-five countries had heeded Rabbi Hildesheimer’s call and officially recognized the Beita Israel as fellow Jews.

In reaffirming the Radbaz’s position centuries before, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, Israel’s Chief Sephardic Rabbi, stated in 1972, "I have come to the conclusion that Falashas are Jews who must be saved from absorption and assimilation. We are obliged to speed up their immigration to Israel and educate them in the spirit of the holy Torah, making them partners in the building of the Holy Land."

In 1975, Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren wrote to the Beita Israel telling them, "You are our brothers, you are our blood and our flesh. You are true Jews." Later that same year the Israeli Interministerial Commission officially recognized the Beita Israel as Jews under Israel’s Law of Return, a law designed to aid in Jewish immigration to Israel. The Beita Israel were ready to come home.

Indeed, the Beita Israel were strictly observant in pre-Talmudic Jewish traditions. The women went to the mikvah, or ritual bath, just as observant Jewish women do to this day, and they continue to carry out ancient festivals, such as Seged, that have been passed down through the generations of Beita Israel. The Qessotch, or religious leaders, are as widely revered and respected as the great rabbis in each community, passing the Jewish customs through storytelling and maintaining the few Jewish books and Torahs some communities were fortunate enough to have written in the liturgical language of Ge’ez.

Jewish Apathy. . .and its Defeat

The struggle to free the Beita Israel was not fought solely against the Ethiopian government. Much like some timid Jewish leaders during the Holocaust, some recent Jews sought to prevent a shanda fur de goyim (an embarrassment in front of the non-Jews) by not stirring up waves over Ethiopian Jewry.

The history of the Beita Israel’s rescue is at times open to debate regarding the heroes of the Ethiopian Jewry movement. As with many struggles to free oppressed Jewry around the world, many advocated and vocalized opposition to those responsible for the lack of action on their behalf. Others, however, argued for a more quiet diplomacy, void of the public demonstrations and arrests that marked the struggle for Soviet Jewry.

Though over 8,000 Beita Israel managed to flee to Israel during his tenure, it was an Israeli official in charge of the Ethiopian Jews’ absorption who may best symbolize the insensitivity that an extreme minority of people once held. Yehuda Dominitz who served as Director General of the Jewish Agency’s Department of Immigration and Absorption, declared in 1980 that, "[taking] a Falasha (sic) out of his village, it’s like taking a fish out of water...I’m not in favor of bringing them [to Israel]." Dominitz also refused to allow his agency to rent buses so Ethiopian Jews in Israel could travel to Jerusalem to observe their ancient holiday of Seged (Dominitz eventually relented, but had the buses take the Beita Israel to Haifa instead of Jerusalem).

Decades earlier, Malkah Raymist, a writer for the World Zionist Organization wrote in 1956 in The Jewish Horizon (of the Hapoel Hamizrachi of America Movement) that, "the reasons [for not bringing Ethiopian Jews to Israel] are simple and weighty. On one hand, they are well off where they are, while their development and mental outlook is that of children; they could fall an easy prey of exploitation, if brought here without any preparation. On the other hand, being a backward element, they would be and it would take several years before they could be educated towards a minimum of progressive thinking."

In an American Association for Ethiopian Jews (MEJ) press release, the MEJ quoted its founder, Dr. Graenum Berger, as criticizing those who had any thought of ending rescue of the Beita Israel. Berger declared, "Not when Jews are dying...these revelations show once again that the policy of influencing factions of the government of Israel always have been against the immigration of the Ethiopian Jews. And, the same people who controlled their immigration then are controlling it now. These are the same people who gave instructions to the Israeli Embassy in Ethiopia (1956-1973) not to issue immigration visas to any Jew from’ Ethiopia."

Berger himself came under criticism for his outspoken remarks concerning the Israeli efforts to rescue the Beita Israel, showing that nobody was immune from the rhetoric surrounding the issue.

Interestingly, today in many Israeli Orthodox Rabbinical circles, the Falasha and their religious practices, are considered to be one of the purest groups of Jews. This is in large part because the Falashas long isolation from out side influences, and that they are one of a very few Jewish ethnic groups who can directly trace their lineage back, unbroken, for almost 3000 years.

Are ye not as the children of the Ethiopians unto Me,

0 children of Israel, saith the Lord.

Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt,

And the Philistines from Caphtor,

And Aram (Syria) from Kir.

Amos 9: 7

As Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu once said in 1998, in a speech on Yom Yerushali’im, "Ethiopian Jews are the Center Jewel in the crown of Judaism."

... in response to My Ignorance?, posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

Semites are peoples who speak SEMETIC LANGUAGES (Not a Race); the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

Present day speakers of Semitic languages are as diverse in physical, psychological, cultural, and sociological characteristics as are speakers of Indo European languages. The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews. They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade. The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history.

... in response to My Ignorance? (And if that isn't enough ..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

I am talking about your statement that Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious.  It was not, it was racial. I will read over your lengthy post above and see what it has to say. Beats reading about the agency scene.

... in response to Re: My Ignorance? (And if that isn't eno..., posted by surfscum on Jan 6, 2005

[This message has been edited by soltero]

 "I am talking about your statement that Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious. It was not, it was racial. "-Posted by surfscum on 01/06/2005

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!  was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…  And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."  –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed.  The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

This is all b*llshyt of course...Hitler wanted power and the Jews had it at the time as they were the wealthiest group in depression era Germany and some of those Jews were of Aryan ancestry also. It was about power, nothing more. Just another fine example how religion got twisted up in the mix to sway Joe Average...As you can see, he failed to mention the fact that Jesus himself was Jewish in his tirade. Very cunning sociopath, our dear Adolph.

Now that's enough of this. We are starting to open up an ugly can here. I hope that one good thing will come out of this HHHUUUUUUUGGGEEE monster of a thread and that is that we all come to an understanding of how judging others and imposing our own beliefs for whatever reason is not the best way to be Human.

... in response to Re: Re: My Ignorance? (And if that isn't..., posted by soltero on Jan 7, 2005

Fine, too bad this is the wrong forum for this sort of thing. I don't think this proves your point, it just shows that Hitler twisted anything he could to justify his ends. Otherwise, you'd have to argue that Hitler was a christian, which is laughable. Thanks, Soltero, for the sparring. I'm getting rusty, but it's never personal with me.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: My Ignorance? (And if that i..., posted by surfscum on Jan 9, 2005

Anytime...it's all good to me. I never take this kind of thing personal. I try to stay open minded to whatever so that I can always get a better understanding. Thanks to you also.

... in response to My Ignorance? (And if that isn't enough ..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

Certainly quite a bit of info on Ethiopian Jews.  My two cents if you care about Jewish history...

Jews are not a separate race of course, but a collection of several ethnic groups (two major ones and several minor) bound by same religion and origin.  Original Jews realistically (if you take away the legend) descended from Canaanites and nomadic tribes from Syrian desert.  The latter did manage to conquer Egypt for a period of time, but later were overthrown and largely enslaved or expelled, and one of these tribes was actually called Hibri according to Egyptian records.  

Twelve tribes of Israel is not the same as three legendary sons of Noah, one of which was supposed to be a progenitor of Semitic People - basically Middle Eastern people, speakers of Hebrew, Arabic, Assyrian and in anciant times also Aramaic and other languages.  Twelve tribes of Israel was a tribal division of anciant Jews, like clans in Ireland or Scotland.

Ethiopian languages (as well as Egyptian Koptic and languages north of Lake Chad in Africa) are classified as Khamitic, that are closely related but still distinct.

Gheez is ancient Ethiopian language and is equivalent to relationship between Latin and Romance languages.  It is a liturgical language of Ethiopian church; I did not know it was used by Ethiopian Jews as well, but it makes sense.

Ancient Jews who began to settle outside of Ancient Israel and Judeah states before their destruction, and were forced out finally by the Romans.  The main two groups (one settling Mediterranean, another Eastern Europe) did retain their culture, religion and were largely barred from intermarrying both by internal and external laws.

There are however several other small distinct groups of Jews who settled elsewhere: one was in Ethiopia, one was in Georgia, one was in Afghanistan, and one even in China, several other minor ones.  These groups largely assimilated into the surrounding populations because they were not numerous themselves, and there were no discriminatory laws passed against them (i.e., Ethipian Jews look largely like Ethiopians, Chinese Jews look Chinese, etc.).  There are two other ethnic groups that profess Judaism, but they are of Turkic origin and are not related to the original ancient Jews.  Furthermore, Yemen used to have Judaism as state religion before switching to Islam, so most likely that Yemeni Jews are largely not directly related to ancient Jews as well.

Jews in general consider any of these groups as belonging to the Jewish community; however, they are obviously different from the two main Jewish groups, the Ashkenazis and the Sephardics.

... in response to in response to prior two posts, posted by thunderbolt on Jan 6, 2005

I was just trying to do a little filibustering (smile)...this thread has become a monster, and I was going to let it go until the whole "ignorance" thing (lol). I hope that it has been both educational for everyone involved, and entertaining. If there is an award for the most off topic thread on PL, I hope this wins. It doesn't qualify as a flame exactly, as we were all pretty civil (even Dr Aaron), but it definitely did push the envelope on bizarre. There is one discussion I would enjoy though that might get just as out of hand. It is similar to this one in a way. Are Spanish speaking people throughout the diaspora considered to be a race? (I already have my opinion, as usual, but there seem to be many that think they are...) I have heard that they are trying to classify Hispanics as a race for statistical purposes. How is that going to fly?

... in response to Re: in response to prior two posts, posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

They have to classify Hispanics as a race because that's how people are classified in the US, and I guess they themselves, as well as the society considers them to be distinct to deserve a separate classification.

They are in my opinion rather an ethnic group which consists of several races.  Further, most of people there have a very mixed racial background anyway.

... in response to Re: Re: in response to prior two posts, posted by thunderbolt on Jan 6, 2005

...since you seem to have an interest, and I happened to dig this up, maybe you might enjoy this.

http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata55.htm

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

Soltero and other gentlemen,
I have found your discussions very interesting, and you are certainly all entitled to your own opinions.  However, Soltero, you are mistaken when you said that Judaism is just a religion, and not a race.  Haven't you read in the Old Testament of the Bible when in several of the books of the Bible they went into detail of the geneologies or lineage of the "Twelve Tribes of Israel"?  So, to make my point Judaism is very distinct, in that, it is both a religion and a race.  But, I will add to that, that the "12 Tribes of Israel" were dispersed over the entire globe.    In fact, it has happened on more than one occasion that they were forced from their "Homeland" throughout the entire ancient world (ie Babylonian Empire, Roman Empire, etc).  In fact, today, none of the Jews know what "tribe" they belong to.  I too am a student of history.
When they became a soverign nation again in 1948, then they were once again allowed to come back from these many parts of the world and settle once again, in the "Land of their Fathers".  I am not a Jew, but I am a Christian and a student of the Bible.  Hitler's hatred of the Jews was very terrible; but then again, all hatred is terrible; especially violent hatred.  The Islamic terrorists of today show that!

                             OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by OkieMan on Jan 6, 2005

If you go back and follow the breakdown of those 12 tribes, OkieMan, you will see that they are  representative of every race on the planet. With that being so, I would assume that since every race is represented within the 12 tribes, we are all the same (under Judaism) so it is very hard to make Judaism racial more so than theological. Last time I checked, they didn't ask for DNA samples whenever someone wanted to convert, either. As far as labeling Jews a race in order to give them the "Promised Land", that was a political ploy as far as most of the political bodies involved have included keeping church and state seperate in their constitutions, and would have looked extremely hypocritical otherwise. It is a thin veil that makes it easier for the uninformed to swallow displacing people from their homes. That area is the "homeland" of more than one religion (at least three), and no one has any more "God given" right to it than anyone else. Let me please reiterate that it is my view that religion in itself is a great thing, but there will always be someone who will use whatever the masses believe in to promote their own agenda. Anyone who disagrees with that is naive in my opinion. I can go into more historical detail as far as written documents including the Old Testament to attempt to prove why I have my OPINIONS, but I am not getting paid here. This is all just talk until somebody wants to pull out some cash. (LOL)...

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by soltero on Jan 6, 2005

Jews are not a separate race (even though Nazis thought they were), they are rather a separate ethnic group (actually, more like two) that originated in the Middle East and then scattered around the world, predominantly in Europe, North Africa and Middle East, and recently the Americas.  Obviously they have intermarried over the centuries to some extent, but for the most part, they are descendants of ancient Jews of ancient Judeah.

This century they had an opportunity to re-establish their statehood, and they did that, and so far they have retained it.

As far as their origins before that, twelve tribes, etc, that's half-mythical anyway, but they did exist as a nation in the recorded history and on the territory that they have right now.

Religions don't have homelands, nations do.  Religions do have sacred sites, and many of those for christianity and islam are located in Israel; however, Israel has not impeded access to them.

Regarding people being displaced from their homes, it was tragic, but it happened to both sides of the conflict.  In fact, most of the Jews who settled in Israel came from the same region, from the neighboring Middle Eastern countries, and the large-scale immigration from FSU countries came much later.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Which religion....., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 6, 2005

One thing about the powers that be that I am sure of is that they know the truth about what is and what isn't. In order to corrupt the truth, first you have to know the truth. I don't think that the Nazis considered the Jews a race. That was just the propaganda put out to make it more digestable for Joe Average and to get him on their side. What better way to boost a failing economy and national pride than to tell the masses that they have a common enemy if they are gullible enough to believe it, and they are. It started with the Jews because they had most of the money, and it worked so well, I guess Hitler thought he could include the rest of the world since he was on a roll. What has come to pass will come again as long as the situation, timing, and the right (or wrong) person has the ability to twist the truth and present it in a manner that is acceptable enough to sway someone else who can be swayed. The only thing that can prevent that is constantly questioning everything and forming your own opinion within the confines of what is right and what is wrong. No one needs someone else to tell you that. You can feel it. Like you said, a good person is going to be a good person and vice versa.

... in response to Which religion..., posted by surfscum on Jan 5, 2005

Regarding the 'atheistic despotism'...  It is a frequent argument; however, it is false.

The regimes you described basically substituted the dogma of religion with their own.  They had their own 'saints', their own commandments, their own very clear and precise notions of good and evil.  There is basically no difference in structure of socialism, nazism, etc and the major religions.  And thus they inherited the destructive qualities of organized religions: considering non-believers to be evil (and sometimes not even human), and therefore not worthy of life (in extreme forms) or at the very least basic rights and access to an equal and fair debate.

Further, I would not put Lenin and Mao in that company; the other three definitely belong together though.

... in response to Re: Which religion..., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 5, 2005

There is a huge difference, in fact it is the main difference between Naziism, communism, etc. and the 3 main monotheistic faiths: they take man and make him a god. Man always gets into trouble when he ascribes power to himself without authority. When men TRULY believe they are responsible to a higher being for their actions, they become better men.

Also, to say that there is no difference between socialism, nazism and religion is an interesting, if flawed analysis. You're saying politics and religion are the same: they aren't, but for people without God something has to take his place and that often is politics. It's the idea of creating heaven on earth.

... in response to Re: Re: Which religion..., posted by surfscum on Jan 5, 2005

So Osama does not beieve in creating heaven on earth, and that makes him better?  Yes, there are differences between christianity and communism, which I never denied; however, the structure of communism resembles that of the church.  Yes, they took 'men' and made them 'gods', but the same can be said about the church; however, it is a question of faith, and the last thing I want to do is insult feelings of many people for no reason.

Basically, you focus on details that are different; I was talking about the structure.  Both the Nazis and the Communists had their morality, their 'saints', their 'sacred texts', their rituals, 'prophets', army of priests-comissars, etc.  Frankly, the reason they both attacked established religion was b/c they were a rival and a competitor.

And religion does not make a person better; the actual situation is in reverse.  If a person is good, virtuous, etc, he will eventually be appalled by all the evil and injustice in this world; the religion does explain it and ensures that the good will eventually win, that's the  attraction of religion.  And a person who is inspired by the hope that religion offers, by its confirmation of his morality and character, can do a lot of good to others.  However, a bad person will not become 'good' b/c he found religion.

... in response to Re: the Missionaries wiped out more cult..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

I do agree with you that in general religion is responsible for a lot of deaths and violence.  Sad but true.

However, in many countries in the Americas missionaries did actually fight to protect the Natives (at least those who had converted and lived in their missions) against slaughter and slavery, with Paraguay being the most outstanding example.  Even these days the church was the only force that voiced its protest against violence towards peasants (who were pretty much Indians) in Salvador and CA in general, with their bishop and many priests even being gunned down by the governement and paramilitaries.  In Alaska and Siberia, Russian missionaries did save the Natives there from slavery as well.  I am not Catholic as you know, just being objective.

... in response to Re: Re: the Missionaries wiped out more ..., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 5, 2005

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I am not saying that the missionaries were or are bad people and that they haven't done good or intended to do good. I am just saying that an oak in a hurricane will break while a blade of grass will bend. Anyone who has such rigid beliefs will end up getting used and twisted by someone else. True tolerance is accepting others, not converting them. That's all that I am saying. I don't think that Dr. Aaron posted what he posted because he was trying to be anything but righteous. I just think that way of thinking is ignorant when it is presented as more than an opinion. I gave as an example the role of the missionary which was similar. I am sure that examples can be found to support the similarity of his and their positions. In short, don't come into my house and tell me I am wrong (and this is not directed at you), because you don't live here. I can walk into your house and probably find just as much going on that I don't agree with...(I really need to find a way to make my point more succinctly (smile).

... in response to Re: Re: Re: the Missionaries wiped out m..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

I do see the point you are making.  It's just the example you brought up to support it is neither pertinent, nor really a good example, that's all. :-)

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: the Missionaries wiped o..., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 5, 2005

I can accept that. Calling out the missionaries does step on a lot of people's sensibilities.

... in response to Re: the Missionaries wiped out more cult..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

I think you are mixing people with culture.  

either way, the missionaries themselves were not responsible for the deaths throughout history.  and the entire colonization process, not just attempts at religious conversion, is responsible for the subjugation or elimination of cultures.

... in response to OK, then how do disease and famine wipe ..., posted by Malandro on Jan 5, 2005

I will say that they may have had the best of intentions, but anytime you dismiss someone else as less than because they don't agree with you or follow your prescribed doctrine, you are coming from a position of ignorance and setting yourself up to be used by someone else who knows better. Missionaries were a part of the process, and a major part. They were always sent first. I doubt very seriously that there would have been any colonization without them. Telling people that you are the spokesman for God and that they should "turn the other cheek" is kinda foul to me. Most converted tribes usually got enslaved or killed by their unconverted neighbors or the settlers to whose religion they had converted. The original colonial expeditions usually got their asses handed to them on the end of a spear. In come the missionaries, followed by the armies. Do you really think that wasn't a plan?

... in response to Re: OK, then how do disease and famine w..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

the US was colonized without missionaries.  It was not a major part of the development of the US at all.  

I am not so sure that the converted tribes were killed by their unconverted neighbors.  rather, it was the unconverted neighbors that were slaughtered by the Spanish armies.  slavery was implemented for sure.

I am not so certain that the original colonial expeditions got their asses handed to them on a spear is very accurate.   Pedro Alvarado conquered Guatemala and other parts of central america with just over 200 soldiers.  Likewise, Cortez took Mexico with a few hundred soldiers as well.

I don't believe the "plan" was to pacify the Indians with religion and then slaughter them with soldiers.  If the "plan" was to erradicate the indians to begin with they simply would have done more of a US model war rather than making an attempt at conversion.

since Spain was so closely tied with Rome there was tremendous pressure NOT to slaughter the Indians.

... in response to Oklahoma put up a better fight than some..., posted by Malandro on Jan 5, 2005

England had a very unique way of colonization which was very different than most other European countries. Being a relatively small island with space issues, they just emptied their prisons. Here, in Australia, and South Africa, the first colonists were usually murderers, prostitutes, rapists, and thieves. They didn't need soldiers or missionaries. But the actual colonization of North America started before England came into the picture. The Dutch, Spanish, and the French were here first. The rest is all subjective to historical interpretation. No one wants to slaughter a potential work force, conversion makes more sense. The criminally insane didn't care as they were, well, criminally insane. As always, it depends on perspective. To think that cultures that existed for thousands of years needed "help" is kinda arrogant. This can be debated ad nauseam.

... in response to Re: Oklahoma put up a better fight than ..., posted by soltero on Jan 5, 2005

for mostly petty crimes such as thievery.   murderers and rapists were kept under lock and key in England.  The book "Fatal Shore" is a detailed account of Australian colonization.  the convicts then were essentially slaves in Australia for the prescribed period of sentence.   but this is getting way off point.

... in response to my understanding is Australia was used a..., posted by Malandro on Jan 5, 2005

You are correct about Australia.

Beattledog

... in response to my understanding is Australia was used a..., posted by Malandro on Jan 5, 2005

.

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

BFD, I think it's YOU who is excited about a 16 year old in an agency.  Stop dreaming up stuff.

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

Aaron, regarding personality profiles...

Well, mostly it will be BS that will be co-written with the agency's personnel.

"Soy una persona seria, divertida y sincera.  Busco a alguien tierno, responsable y amable."  It will not be a lot deeper than this.  I think I am stating the obvious ;)

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

[This message has been edited by wizard]

Never mind...

... in response to On your high horse again..., posted by wizard on Jan 5, 2005

In my opinion, he does make a good point regarding the 16 y.o.  Otherwise, why not post 12 y.o.'s profiles?  Why stop at 16?  There should be some sort of boundaries that can't be crossed.  If not, the new owner should associate himself with the P-P site in MDE.

... in response to Re: On your high horse again..., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 5, 2005

The fact that he screamed about a 16 year old's photo on the LE website is not what got me worked up... Aaron is what got me steamed... Pious attitude, holier than thou, throwing stones at the entire process... If he had stopped at pointing out the FACTS, that would have been fine by me...

I'm not advocating that a 40+ year old gringo actively seek a 16 year old, but there was a 19 yo gringo here recently who just might be interested...

BTW, lots of girls in Colombia have their first child @ 16 years old... You don't think so??? Open you eyes, do the math on all the girls who are 22 with a 5 year old nino...

I deleted my original post as it would serve no good to trash Aaron again... He is such as easy target...

What the hell... Here is what I originally posted...

----------------------------------------------------

Aren't you jumping to a number of conclusions based on a picture and an age on a website???

Since when is it a crime to meet someone, regardless of age??? There are young gringos looking to travel south too you know... One posted here in the past week...

Who said anything about RAPE, besides you???

Where did it say that this girl was being used for sex, except by you???

LE is not the first agency, nor likely the last who charges a fee to view their female member's profiles... At LAI you HAVE to be a member to view profiles, not just pay a monthly service charge, but pay a hefty membership fee... I don't hear anyone crying foul about Nelson's business practices...

I find your comments a disservice to the entire process... First your pious remarks concerning an underage girl who has a picture posted on a website, then your remarks about desperate men willing to pay a fee to view profiles, to agency scams, then fraudulent agencies, phantom women and on and on and on, ad nauseum...

Yes, it is just your opinion and you are entitled to it...

But isn't this just the reason everyone jumped your shit the last time you surfaced here??? Eh... Passing judgement on people you don't know and whom you will never meet...

The irony is that they could care less about you, your soapbox or your righteous indignation...

... in response to Re: Re: On your high horse again..., posted by wizard on Jan 5, 2005

Inasmuch as I am not really aware of what Aaron said or did in the past, I still think he is making a point.

Obviously cultural differences do exist, and most of the colombianas (and colombianos for that matter) do start young.  I did date actually a colombian girl when I was in H.S., and were both pretty young.  And in fact there was a poster on this site who is reasonably within the age range of that girl.

However, this service assumes that its clients are looking for wives to marry and bring back to US, and you can't marry a 16 yo by US laws.  I do not find it offensive if an 18 yo or a 19 yo were to date a 16 yo; however, the vast majority of the clients of this agency are not 19, and it is not a dating service per se, rather than a marriage service, and there should be some boundaries and standards for such a service.  If an American goes to Colombia and insists on getting laid with a 16 yo, I am sure he can do that without LE's help.

I am the last person in the world to start moralizing, and frankly I do not like when people do that, and I am not doing it now.  My objection on this matter is based really on common sense.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: On your high horse again..., posted by thunderbolt on Jan 5, 2005

Aaron has a bad habit of getting on his high horse and making speeches to the
masses. I agree with him on one point and that is a 16 year old does not belong
on the angency rolls. The rest of his dribble he can put it back where he got it..

... in response to Thanks for the tip [n/t], posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2005

.

... in response to Patrick Look At This. It's Important. , posted by Dr Aaron on Jan 4, 2005

It is also a crime in the US for a US citizen to have sex with a minor in a foreign country.  Casa Alianaca is a philanthropic organization in CR which has campaigned for these laws and aided in the aprehension of these perpetrators.  With the availablity of women in CR, it is beyond the imagination that men would feel the need to molest children.  It is however a major crime.  

I will also tell you that in my experience, many agencies rely on the ignorance of their US coustomers to make a living.  It would seem at first glance that only a not very bright person would join this agency but obviously they are able to stay in business.  A fool and his money...

... in response to Re: Patrick Look At This. It's Important..., posted by kented on Jan 4, 2005

Hey Kented,

Good points. Also, you're right about Costa Rican women. I actually thought that CR women were far more attractive than Colombianas, but many have no interest in leaving CR.

The economic and social problems of Colombia makes it very difficult for many Colombianas to keep themselves.

Aaron