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I am somewhat unsettled by some stuff I've seen here lately.  This (edited) thread for example:

CaliPro

What does "She is kept" meant? By someone else? Someone married, maybe? Don't answer, if you don't want to.
...
Would you be willing to reveal (in general) how you met her? I suppose she's not in an agency.

Steve
__________

Steve

She is not driving an SUV. She is in the back of a Cab when I took the photos of her in a car.

She is kept by me. She is a good example of what $150 a month will keep around for as long as you like.
...
I don't usually pay a girls rent but I did in this case because ... but the intimate relationship I had with this women was rare and priceless and I have been around the block a few times.

Calipro
__________

mudd

Why do you always sound so resentful? Don't try and put me in the P4P crowd. It has never been my bag. I prefer to get laid for free.

Calipro
_______

Uh...come again?  You might run out and get some ginko....it seems you posted your $150/mo girl's rate on 12/29 and then are indignant the next day.

Why Batman was banned (which I basically agreed with) and Calipro is not at this point I do not understand.  

While this is not a moral or ethical argument about what Calipro is doing (I have no problem with that); this garbage does not belong here.  There are a host of world sex guides that this belongs on.  In fact I read them occassionaly and would welcome such a report there.

To make matters even sillier, I don't think anyone has ever been laid for free, its merely a question of how you pay and with what.  My point is this...I happen to like strippers but I won't post  SA strip club reviews here...it really debases the whole concept of what Patrick is trying to offer here.

Ciao

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

Stay out of those SA strip clubs. The women that work in them are nothing but a bunch of prostitues.

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

This board has really deteriorated over the years especially in the last year or so. Some of the posts are worthless. You have these posts where it's obvious why the poster is single and apparent the they have a low regard for women and general morality. Guys writing remarks on other boards about members on this board. Casting judgement as if they got life all figured out. Let's face it if we did we would have never even looked for a board like this.
Chizz a new member did an excellent job reporting on his stay in Cali. It's this type of report that really could help someone who's thinking of heading south. But these posts are so few and far between.
( Just a note Chizz It used to be standard information on this board that Christmas was a bad time to hit an agency because all the ladies prefer to be with their families. I think the agencies sometimes fail to disclose this.)
Just like in any house you need to empty the trash from time to time. I think the time has come

... in response to Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Craig on Jan 2, 2004

boy did you hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!! couldnt of said it better myself.

... in response to Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Craig on Jan 2, 2004

well last year there was guys here that would drive guys who really were
just after sex off this site. But I do agree this board was at it lowest when
we had batman on here... I thought Chizz write up was great... but this
board has not been bad ths last month alot of info has been coming out I
feel...

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

Calipro does walk a fine line from looking for a nice girl for marriage, oh sure!!!! To partying and getting laid as much and as cheap as possible. We don’t agree on a lot of things, including Batman and his new years party/ sex party, but to each his own. I think if you ban him, you are censoring too much and a lot of information and knowledge would be left out, and i do enjoy some of his pictures that he puts up. You have to take in to account of the person and their personality when reading their posts and make your own decision.

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

I don't understand the problem.  You have no moral or ethical argument with what Calipro is doing, and believe that sex is always "a question of how you pay and with what."  Calipro sends $150 a month to his girlfriend in Cali.  Right now she's more interested in marriage/security, while he's more interested in the sex.  A lot of relationships start out that way and some end up in marriage.  And, assuming he actually cares about the woman (and he probably does despite the way he's worded his posts), then $150/month isn't that big of a sacrifice for him and will go a long way for her.

... in response to Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Miguel on Jan 2, 2004

My problem (and I really don't think I'm nitpicking here) is Calipro's choice of venue.  This is not a place to show pictures of your kept women and how much you pay and the sex is great.

Further, though this is mere speculation on my part, is that she is unaware of it.  I beleive Calipro's logic previously was "...well they didn't tell me not to do it either...".

There are plenty of sites and forums to talk about prostition, and this isn't one of them.

Look, I don't know Calipro and I'm not seeking to ban him or start a flame war.  But he has entered an unnavigable area with some posts.  He's telling her to join an egency.  Will part of her profile be "sex in exchange for rent, order now, only $150/mo"?

THAT is the problem I have with this. Perhaps its not moral or ethical, but has something to do with class?

To further clarify, while knowing the deal she had with Calipro alone would not deter me if I really liked her, I think its safe to say it would cause 75% to toss her aside immediately.

Ciao

Discussion Board Rules

4. No discussions of prostitution
There are some men who travel internationally for purposes of prostitution. Unfortunately, international trafficking in women is often (incorrectly) associated with "mail order brides" and it damages the reputations of both the men and women involved. Discussions from a philosophical point of view are okay, but any discussion from a client's point of view (e.g. "Club X has great women" etc.) will result in immediate expulsion.

... in response to Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

Calipro said that she is kept not a prostitute.
I think there is a difference between the two.  One is a woman that is probably receiving money on a regular basis to help provide for her needs.  It is like a man saying, " I think you are nice, cute, and I like you.  I am going to help you because you need it and I can.  Let's see what comes of this.  When I visit we will spend time together".  The other is a woman that is sought out at any given time for the purpose of sex in exchange for money.  In other words
"I will give you $50 for a blow” Most men that are involved with prostitutes or are not out to provide for the hookers needs.  They are out to meet their own needs.  

I also noticed that he showed his face with this young lady.  That is something that he did not do in the past.  No matter what he wrote perhaps there could be some genuine feeling involved.  Machismo will make some men call the woman they love a chick.

In an effort to take the high road and moralize you seemed to have really reduced it to something cheap "Will part of her profile be "sex in exchange for rent, order now, only $150/mo"?"  What did she do to you to deserve that from you?

I don't know any men that would send money to a woman on a monthly basis that did not care for the woman.  

BTW where do I get the low down on the strip clubs?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by luvslife on Jan 3, 2004

You wrote:
"In an effort to take the high road and moralize you seemed to have really reduced it to something cheap"

Wow did you miss the point.  Moralizing has zero to do with this.  I don't find fault with Calipro's relationship with the female...only what he disclosed, and moreover the fact that he  disclosed it here.

In a further example of 'missing the point' you request info on strip clubs here.  Dude, there are loads of places on the internet for that, but not here; that has been my one and only point so far.

For the last time, I had no intention on 'cheapening' Calipro's relationship or woman.  If that happenned, he did it himself.

It seems that I am probably wrong...in fact it is ok to post links to pics of girls you support in Colombia, how much you pay, etc.  

I think my point is, if I was this girls mother, sister, brother, or ex, I would be outraged at what has transpired here.

So I'm wrong; I submit.  From the start I said it has nothing to do with morals of Calipros setup. I have been in similar situations, but I would not dream of describing it on a forum that has to do with finding life partner or long term relationships, which is what this is, last I checked.

Ciao

n/t

... in response to Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by luvslife on Jan 3, 2004

"I don't know any men that would send money to a woman on a monthly basis that did not care for the woman. "

I know several, its called Alimony and or child support. Ask around most strippers are experts on it.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by NightRaven on Jan 3, 2004

I guess he forgot the word "voluntarily".

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by NightRaven on Jan 3, 2004

bravo :)

... in response to Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

[This message has been edited by Calipro]

I have never said "the sex is great". I think you should get your mind out of the gutter. When I say we have a very good intimate relationship I mean she is a good kisser and when I say we slept together I mean we held each other all night. Also when I was provoked into saying " I prefer to get laid for free", I was simply stating a preferance. It doesn't mean that it ever happened.

OK! I'll say it! I'm a virgin!! Are you happy NOW!!!!

Also I don't feel that it is right for you to imply that my girlfriend is a prostitute just because she accepts a $150 a month from me.

... in response to Excuse me!!!, posted by Calipro on Jan 2, 2004

CaliPro

Sorry to hear the sex wasn't great.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

Your post seems a little contradictory.  First, "I'm not seeking to ban him or start a flame war."  Then later an excerpt from "Discussion Board Rules -- 4. No discussions of prostitution," including the part about immediate expulsion from PL for all offenders.  And previously an explanation of why giving a girlfriend $150/month is the same thing as paying for a prostitute in Calipro's case.

It looks like you're trying to get him banned.  I hope that doesn't happen.  While you and I may have a different idea of what represents a successful relationship, Calipro's posts have been (and hopefully will continue to be) a good source of information and entertainment.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Miguel on Jan 2, 2004

This is an interesting discussion....

I happen to enjoy calipro's posts and admire the way he refutes some challenges...

While not adhering to all his principles I'd have to say he has a fine sense of discerning beauty in colombian women.

He's had some good luck with the ladies and some bad luck with the ladies as do all of us who are involved with this pursuit for any length of time...

at least he has the decency to send some money to the lady of the moment...
This is far more than what many of us are considerate enough to do...

I've watched at least 8 men from America, Spain, England and Switzerland play with the emotions and life of my sister in law over the last few years....

exceptional, successful men that all took advantage of her situation and no one with such a short time of involvement offered to help finacially in any way...

$150 goea a long way to help and is really such a paltry sum if one is interested...it can make a hugh difference in Colombia and its good for dinner here....

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Dean on Jan 2, 2004

Here, here. However Calipro's giving $150/month is viewed or judged, the recipient benefits. Bravo for Calipro.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Dean on Jan 2, 2004

[This message has been edited by Miguel]

No kidding.  There are people here who will tell you you're a smuck or a "John" if you send a Colombiana $150 a month.  Well, in Colombia that small amount can be the difference between a reasonable existence and living like an animal. I've sent money to women who I have no intention of ever sleeping with or marrying.  And to one who I did sleep with but have no intention of marrying.  Generally it was because of illness in the family.  One of the women lied to me a couple of times, I think.  But given that she had an invalid mother and grandmother and a younger sister to support, I don't regret it for a minute.  So call me an idiot or a whoremonger or whatever. I guess I'm guilty.

And to those who would condemn this, I'd ask what you're doing looking for a wife in a third world country in the first place.  If you want someone who you know isn't interested in your money or your citizenship, someone for whom a few extra dollars aren't going to mean the difference in whether there's food on the table or medicine for a sick child, then you need to be looking in the USA or Europe.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Miguel on Jan 2, 2004

I have sent money to my novia many times. I pay for the rent, the phone, the internet, etc etc etc. The difference is I don't say that she is "kept". I don't say that she has zero chance of ever going to the states. I don't say that I will never marry her. If one brags about getting laid for free, and describes it as an intimate relationship, the it is a P4P relationship.

I don't see anything wrong with that if both parties agree on the terms. He has said that the girl wants to marry him, so I would wager that his idea and her idea of the relationship differs greatly.  

He has talked about how he can string them along indefinitely as well. Another poster said it best. It is not a matter of morals. . . .it's a matter of class. . . .or lack there of.

... in response to sending money, posted by Ralph on Jan 3, 2004

I didn't meet this girl in a marriage agency so there has never been the persumption that this is what the relationship is about. I'm sure even you Ralph have had girl friends whose company you enjoyed and really didn't have any intentions of marrying them. Maybe you didn't give them any money but this particlar girl was really in a bad situation. The garge that I keep my car in is 100 better than where she was living.

You can slander me all you want but my relationship with this girl is not a P4P relationship. I do have feeling for this girl or I wouldn't be helping her out. But, I seriously doubt if I would ever marry a women with a child.

I have told her she should join a marriage agency and look for a husband. Hell, I even took her to a couple but she wouldn't join. This is what lead me to believe that she wants more from are little relationship than I was willing to give. But, I really don't know if she has a desire to be married or not. We haven't talked about marriage because I don't want to mislead her.

I take that back. I told once that if she met a guy at a marriage agency and got married and went to the states and it didn't work out she could call me and I would send her a ticket to Phoenix. How's that for being thoughtful? I would even help her get a fake green card and a job if I had to. But, you are right I wouldn't marry her. So what does that make me the Devil??

... in response to I don't think so......, posted by Calipro on Jan 3, 2004

Help her get a fake green card?, no, not the devil, but kind of unethical, as if we don’t already have enough illegals running around with fake green cards, drivers licenses and social security cards. I hope you were kidding.

... in response to I don't think so......, posted by Calipro on Jan 3, 2004

Sure I've had tons of girls that I had no intentions of marrying. They were not considered girlfriends as I reserve that for monogamous relationships. I also didn't post about how she was "kept". Or talk about what a great deal she was for 150 bucks per month.

As another poster said. Sometimes when they get a taste of a "better life" it is hard to go back. Many "hookers" don't wake up one day and say today I will be a hooker. In many cases they feel like they can make a guy love them, or have dreams of a serious relationship.

Many girls that have been "kept" a few times and dissapointed with the end result, feel that if they are trading "intimate relationships" for cash, the monthly plan is not as profitable or consistent as straight P4P. If she took cash by the "date" she would always have enough to get by. If you dump her because she doesn't manage the money properly or you meet someone better, what does she do. . . . . .move back to a place worse than your garage.

It is commendable that you "think" you leave all of your women better off than when you met them. I also think you think soley in terms of how much better they are financially. Not much thought goes into the emotional aspect. My dos centavos.

... in response to I don't think so......, posted by Calipro on Jan 3, 2004

Everyone knows that Calipro and I haven't seen eye to eye on alot of things, but I feel I need to defend him on this one (anyone surprised?).  Everything he has posted about this girl's situation is true..........A few guys who are mutual friends of ours told me about CP's relationship with the girl, met her a few times.....(CP and I were in Cali at the same time).........seems the girl is in a very tough situation, and needs help.  I met her in person and she is a very beautiful woman.  CP did offer to get her into an agency, but evidently she refused (according to my friends).  I have had problems with CP's theory on "keeping" women, but I feel in this case, he is doing the right thing, whether she is using him (or vise-versa) or not.  
Deep down inside CP is a good guy.........I think he has some very strong feelings for this girl (just my hunch).  He knows alot of beautiful women in Cali that don't have children, but he chose to spend the majority of his time with her..............
As Dallas Steve has posted many times, I think CP likes to portray a persona on this board that is not exactly himself, and he likes to play with alot of you guys.  Don't underestimate any compassion that he might have for this girl.
Happy New Year!!

... in response to Re: I don't think so......, posted by beenthere on Jan 3, 2004

Beenthere,
   I think this girls looks and her poor situation have had many feeling very sorry for her. But as Calipro has been so open to admit( I respect a man who will lay all his cards on the table) she has lied and told her landlord  Calipro did not leave her with any money, in order to get the landlord to lend her 100,000 pesos after she spent all of the money Calipro gave her. He also admits she stole money from him.

   Though this girl may seem sweet and say all of the right things, her true nature is coming through when she is given a chance for a better oppurtunity. Instead of her being careful with her money because she also has a little boy to think about. She spent it carelessly and is willing to put her and her son into a situation where they could be homeless(If she cannot pay her landlord).
 
   Also, we have to remember $150 US dollars is a lot of money down there. More than the monthly minimum wage. So she can be motivated by the money. Once money comes into the equation, it can destroy the best of intent.

 I have learned in life that a woman's personality will come to light she is given a better oppurtunity. She either is grateful and wise,and appreciative. Or is ungrateful and feels entitled to more. Also a woman will tell you almost anything to keep the man who is suppying the goods around.We all know that.

    I think Calipro would be smart to take anything she says with a grain of salt.I admire him fortruly understanding she is not marriage material.

... in response to Re: I don't think so......, posted by beenthere on Jan 3, 2004

Nice post beenthere

... in response to Re: I don't think so......, posted by beenthere on Jan 3, 2004

It's reassuring to read your post, especially since you and he have your share of differences. Whether he is posing when he writes about what he can get for $150/month I don't know, but such a statement does make it appear that he thinks about relationships in terms of what he can get and to see how little he has to put in to get it.

What CP has the opportunity to do is to make a long-term change in this woman's life, even if things don't work out. It's so easy for us gringos to blow in and out of the lives of these women, but they wake up to the same reality day after day. If things don't work out and this woman returns to her former situation, her desperation will be greater and she might turn to more desperate means of making money. Supporting a mother and child is NOT a short-term commitment, nor should it be taken lightly.

The act of giving up part of ourselves to put into another persons life, to give from our abundance to meet the basic needs of another is an opportunity, not a burden. It can also bring out the best in us. I'd like to see CP stop posing and show us the best in him.

... in response to a hostile witness, posted by surfscum on Jan 3, 2004

Great post. I have helped out girls that a buddy of mine has dated. I have bought cell phones or clothes for women I dated.
I think that is different than saying she is "kept" and posting about what one could get for $150 per month. CP was the one that drew that correlation, he brought up the "intimate relationship", and how wortyh it the 150 bucks was.

I have no problem with it, just find it a bit tacky and lacking class. YMMV

... in response to Re: a hostile witness, posted by Ralph on Jan 3, 2004

[This message has been edited by Calipro]

Ralph

I could say that I met this girl and that we shared some special moments together and I really have feelings for her eventhough we just met. I feel obligated to help her out and help her change the direction of her life.

Then I am a sucker being taken for a ride.

Or I could say that she is a kept women and well worth the $150 dollars I send her a month.

Then I am a user and abuser.

You know the both statements are not mutually exclusive. They could both be true.

I could be a sucker and a user. HeHeHe!!

NO I mean I could still have sincere feelings for this women and also think she is a bargain at $150 a month.

Anyway you can never win around here no matter what you say.

... in response to judge and jury, posted by Calipro on Jan 3, 2004

You repeatedly "brag" abouyt how you are not such a nice guy. No need to do that. . . . it's redundant.

... in response to nice guy, posted by Ralph on Jan 4, 2004

RAlph,
this post doesn't pertain to CaliPro, I just wanted to let you know that I got a chance to check out the pictures of you, Joan, & Cari............I want to congratulate you on the job you're doing with that kid..........In all of the pictures he looks so happy with you............I envy you.........
Happy New Year!!!

... in response to Re: nice guy, posted by beenthere on Jan 4, 2004

Thanks for humoring Ralph a little bit. Maybe he'll chill out.

... in response to Re: nice guy, posted by beenthere on Jan 4, 2004

He is truning out to be a great kid. Certainly a big plus rather than being a negative. I'm glad I was open minded to women with kids, as he and I have grown extremely close. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Miguel on Jan 2, 2004

Good gravy.  Do people actually read anymore?

1. I don't have an issue (in any way) with Calipro's activites with the girl.

2. I don't want to see Calipro banned, if anything some recognition that he really was not in the right to post that info here...I'm not holding my breath.

3. I posted the forum faq about no prostitution only to clarify that I am not  hallucinating about the guidelines.

3. "Also I don't feel that it is right for you to imply that my girlfriend is a prostitute just because she accepts a $150 a month from me." ...You are right and no offense was intended.  I merely read..."She is kept by me. She is a good example of what $150 a month will keep around for as long as you like."...since you seem to describe her as disposable but a decent deal for $150...not sure what I was supposed to think.

Really.  I don't want a war.  I don't want to see Calipro or anyone banned.  I honestly thought I had a point awhile ago.

Ciao

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Miguel on Jan 2, 2004

$150 US dollars is no small amount! That's almost $450.000 pesos and the salario minimo these chicas earn if they're working is all of a $360.000. Almost a third more than the salario minimo without working?! Gotta be a gringo involved in this story.

... in response to Re: Re: A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

Very good post...

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

I think Calipro really skirts the same topics as Batman did, but thus far he has never pushed things over the edge.  While I don't agree with Calipro on many things, I believe the board has benefited from his presence here, particularly the newbie, looky-lous because it helps present a more well-rounded idea of what is possible and to expect if you pursue a Latin partner in Colombia.  And probably just as importantly he has been respectful to people on the forum and to the rules of the forum itself.  Batman, went over the edge, because first off he blatantly advertised for his website and services in Cali which is one of the no-nos of this board, and secondly, the website was unacceptable to Patrick the board owner which is also a no-no.

Calipro has really come close to crossing the unacceptable line, but so far he has never crossed it.  I actually am proud of Patrick for not banning Calipro because it is so easy to just decide not to deal with a risky situation i.e. Calipro, and much harder to reasonably consider what is fair.  I have occasionally reacted in anger and outrage to posts on this board and could see how Patrick could have banned me for causing or encouraging trouble if he were to take a hard line on things, but he didn't ban me and I am more comfortable to speak freely without concern with what I say.  Calipro should feel that same freedom.

I guess I could sum up my feelings with an analogy.  Imagine trying to have a partisan discussion on a message board composed of just Republicans or Democrats.  Any liberal would likely feel inhibited to speak freely on the Republican board if he felt he was going to be banned for speaking that way.  Likewise a conservative might not speak freely on a Democratic board (assuming he wasn't just trolling and running off, but actually wanted to be an active participant on the board).

I consider this Planet-Love forum to be similar to an unpartisan political board.  While there will be plenty of people who will vociferously disagree with each other, if they are willing to stay within prescribed boundaries of behavior, real objective discussion can occur instead of just one philosophy being the only one present.

I think there is one thing we all can agree to about the Latin women experience, and that is that the more information and education you can get on the process, the more likely you are to make good choices and find the right woman (or women in Calipro's case LOL).  Objective discussion breeds knowledge and Calipro provides a counterpoint in many discussions and helps present a more informative picture.

... in response to Re: A bit unsettled, posted by lswote on Jan 2, 2004

Bruce

I agree with what you are saying and I would add:

A lot of what CaliPro does is typical of many men hunting for a foreign bride, but being distracted by all the availble women in that situation.  CaliPro has married 2 Colombians already (if my memory serves) so I don't think he's just playing.  And many men send money to women that they have a long relationship with.  Nothing wrong there.

CaliPro is probably gunshy after 2 failures, and I would be, too.  I think he just likes to bait everybody a little with his posts here.  I see it as good humor and I don't think he is breaking Patrick's "prostition" rule.

Steve

... in response to A bit unsettled, posted by Locii on Jan 2, 2004

[This message has been edited by Ralph]

Paying by the night is apparently more expensive than the monthly plan. He has stated that there is zero chance for marriage, so what is he paying for. . . . . .

... in response to monthly plan is cheaper, posted by Ralph on Jan 2, 2004

I think he dances that fine line ... to keep from getting banned... if he
wants to live life that way more power to him but i feel it is sad he could
not just keep those poor girls working where he lives.. I know they could
use some of that money..