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Title: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: elcolombiano on August 26, 2003, 04:00:00 AM My fiancee has a very large family. One of her cousins (whom I have met) last week left to go to work on his motorcycle. He was approached by another man who demanded he give up the bike. When he refused the other man took out a handgun and fired it twice striking my fiancees cousin in the abadamon. He was just released from the hospital yesterday and is fortuante to be alive. My ex-novia was receiving daily phone calls that they were going to come and cut up her face. She was really worried about it. The daughter of one of my cousins best freinds was kidnapped and held by FARC for over a year. Earlier this year they were able to release her and it made the cover of El Pais. When walking outside my ex-novias condo complex in San Ferndando bario of Cali the security guard told us a man had been assulted and robbed allong the side of the building earlier that day. I have yet to meet a woman that has not had her cellphone stolen. My novia travels by motorcyle and is terified that someone will "jumper her" while she is at a light and rob the motorcycle.
Title: Cali sound like a Lawless Country Post by: greg on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Cali can be a very dangerous place, posted by elcolombiano on Aug 26, 2003
same as America during the Western times. Yeah, Cali sounds like a scary country for a Newbie to visit. Maybe what Cali need are more John Waynes to go after the bad Guys. Title: Colombia's John Wayne Post by: Pete E on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Cali sound like a Lawless Country, posted by greg on Aug 27, 2003
Their John Wayne is guy named Carlos Castanta.Alot of people will disagree,but he is a hero to some people I know.His originization is AUC,aka the death squads.He mostly goes after the rebels and has gotten alot of bad press with his brutal methods.An attorney I know from Popyan says when AUC kills some rebels the press reports that AUC killed some farmers.He said AUC knows who the rebels are.This attorney is not what I call a right winger,he works for an organization that defends poor people.Since the new president Uribe has vowed to go after the rebels AUC is kind of watching and waiting to see if they do.Castana has vowed if Uribe does not get rid of the rebels he will. Its not so much Colombia is lawless,they just don't enforce their laws vigorisely.Yeah,kind of like the American old west,except the bad guys could be anyone and they have automatic weapons.You might compare AUC to the vigilantees of the old west,hang em first,ask questions later. Pete Title: Re: Colombia's John Wayne Post by: Michael B on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Colombia's John Wayne, posted by Pete E on Aug 28, 2003
[This message has been edited by Michael B] To carry your analogy a little further: Castano = Tom Doniphan Uribe = Ransom Stoddard Pastrana = Link Appleyard Tirofijo and Mono Jojoy take turns playing Liberty Valance Now, who can we get to play Pompey? Title: Re: Re: Colombia's John Wayne Post by: Pete E on August 29, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Colombia's John Wayne, posted by Michael B on Aug 28, 2003
Michael, I guess I'm not up on my movie characters,Liberty Valance was the only one I recognized.But for fun I'll take my shot at the characters. Castano = John Wayne,as before Uribe = George W. Bush Pasrtana = a combination of Jimmy Carter and Neville Chamberlin.Chamberlin might have got the peace prize too if things didn't go so bad so fast after he whimped out. Tirofigo and Mono Joy Joy = would be Fidel Castros in a world where that will never happen.There as dumb as Castro,but Castro had poor opposition in Cuba and an indifferent US at the time.We were so shocked when he anounced he was a communist?Come on,thats as lame as Hilary saying Monica Lewinsky was a right wing conspiracy because she could not believe her Mucho time philandering Husband would have gone for blow jobs in the oval office.Pathalogical lawyer?Yeah and liar too.Does anybody honestly believe her about this?But hubby Bill got caught lying in front of 100 million people.If he had stuck his neck out as far as his dick he could have saved about 800,000 people in Rahwanda from massacure.But I guess they were dead before he could check he polls to see what his opinion should be. Pete Title: Re: Colombia's John Wayne Post by: cancunhound on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Colombia's John Wayne, posted by Pete E on Aug 28, 2003
I can just picture "the duke" dishing out a Colombian necktie. Problem is the "suspected guerilla" - the poor farmers that had no choice but to "support" the guerilla. All I know is I can't venture to much of the countryside because there's basically 4 different factions down there controlling their respective turf, with frequent flare-ups at the boundaries - and only one of those groups likes the United States. At last check Uribe had increased the military to 135,000, the national police to about 110,000, and initiated the "peasant militia". Things are definitely going to get worse before getting better. Title: Re: Re: Colombia's John Wayne Post by: Pete E on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Colombia's John Wayne, posted by cancunhound on Aug 28, 2003
I would much rather run in to AUC than FARC or ELN.That writer and friends that were supposedly kidnapped near the Panama border were treated well by AUC,who basically told them this is a combat area and they were damm fools to be there,so get the hell out of here.They even tried to explain their cause to them I think.I haven't heard of AUC kidnapping Americans.They are reputed to take drug money.I guess they need revenue too.I think someone posted here about sitting in a restaurant in some small town with some AUC guys.They had no trouble with them. As far as things getting worse before they get better,maybe.But I have always thought that the government just proving they were serious about getting rid of the rebels would reduce the rebel numbers alot.Hard or easy,they need to get on with it.I guess they are,but it seems pretty slow.I guess Uribe had to raise money and troops first. But compared to past inactivity by wimpy leaders it seems they are moving in the right direction. Pete Title: Re: AUC Post by: cancunhound on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Colombia's John Wayne, posted by Pete E on Aug 28, 2003
I believe Cali vet mentioned the suspected local AUC guys were basically off duty. But these guys are basically paid mercenaries, and they don't have a code of ethics like the Foreign Legion. I agree I'd much rather run into an AUC roadblock than guerilla, but would prefer to avoid either - AUC has been put on the US sh%tlist because of the drugs & human rights violations, and our billions of US aide has some strings attached about the AUC. I understand there are many AUC factions that are truly legit and necessary - they're simply a paid army working for wealthy landowners where the military has no presence, and the guerilla are a nuissance - what else is that landowner going to do? Problem is some of the other factions whose wealthy benefactors are the ones that grow the illecit crops, I wouldn't want to be an American stopped in one of their roadblocks - especially while we're aerial spraying roundup on his crops! Whatever the case, it's interesting to see the varying opinions of what different parties think is going on down there, I read the other day from one source that stated what's going on is clearly a dictatorship, no different than Stalin - where the undesireables are being systematically exterminated, all of course with US backing. Title: Re: Re: AUC Post by: Pete E on August 28, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: AUC, posted by cancunhound on Aug 28, 2003
Some idiot thinks Colombia is a dictatorship no better than Stalin? Uribe was popularly elected on the first ballot,no runoff,pretty much unheard of for there.I don't think Uncle Joe ever did anything like that.Extreme leftist /communist retoric never fails to amaze me.They have to be living in a little dream world surrounded by only people who only think like them.Communism is a failed,dismally failed experiment.Anybody who doesn't think so should be living in one of its last holdouts,Cuba.Income is like $10 a month.Can you immagine how well that island,90 miles off Florida would be doing if Castro never came along?I was talking to a Cuban Friend the other day.He is early 30's and has not been to Cuba and is interested in going to check it out.But his father spent 7 years in a Cuban prison,his crime was trying to build a boat to leave.The old man told him "don't you go spend one cent there." We have in the past been kind of purists about Colombia.FARC and ELN could do what they want.But if AUC fights back it is so awfull,because there are elements in the government that support them.If the government was taking care of the situation here would be no AUC.Which is basically what Castana told Uribe.You take care of the rebels and we will disband.AUC is kind of standing back waiting to see what Uribe will do. If you saw "Killing Pablo",Escobar got to the point where he was paying a reward for each policeman killed in Medellin.Not just drug units,all the cops,traffic cops,neighborhood police.That was what finaly got AUC to act.They started killing Escobars business accociates,people who were helping him run his empire.Word got out,if you are helping Escobar, stop or you will die.That worked.Escobars world collapsed and he was eventually killed. The AUC role,while brutal,was crucial to getting rid of Escobar,who had a tremendously corrupting influence. Pete Title: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: cancunhound on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Cali can be a very dangerous place, posted by elcolombiano on Aug 26, 2003
We had our scooter stolen several years back in Cali - damn frustrating (it was a very nice Vespa - cost about as much as a small car). Taxis are it for us nowadays. Cali can obviously be dangerous, it can also be very pleasant and safe with a little common sense, general awareness and avoidance of certain barrios. If not I wouldn't have purchased a condo there. I only mention some of the news articles on ocassion because Cali is so pleasant to the untrained eye that a certain loss of reality can be easily obtained - and one should certainly be alert when out and about in Cali. Title: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: Traveller on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM Title: Sigh ? ? Post by: Pete E on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place, posted by Traveller on Aug 27, 2003
You might be tired of hearing it but I don't doubt our poster here is telling us the truth.Those are real stories.Cali can be very dangerous. But also I believe you that you have had very little trouble.Just because it is dangerous doesn't mean something is going to happen to you for sure,particularly if you are smart about it.Its not that dangerous that everybody will have a problem,particularly if they are there a short time. So whats the truth?Both stories I think.But the fact that the trouble stories exist shows the danger.For the amount of time you have spent in Cali I would attribute your lack of trouble to being very smart or very lucky. And these comparisons to Fresno or Los Angeles.Come on.There might be some neighborhoods that are as bad as some parts of Cali.But Cali has worse ones and all of Cali is a danger zone. Nothing has happened to me personally either.I am pretty carefull where I go and what I do.To the point of boredom sometimes.But I know 2 Colombianos who have had family members murdered.Yeah it could happen here,but not nearly as likely. I think even our buddy Cali Vet is starting to get the picture after his friend was kidnapped twice in a week.I think thats why he is checking out other places and why Jim C. is checking out Cartegena. But you can't beat Cali for the women.I think its got to be the number one spot in the world for a guy to find an attractive lady.I would say find one there,live someplace else. Pete Title: Re: "SIGH" Post by: cancunhound on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place, posted by Traveller on Aug 27, 2003
I hear your frustration but you tend to contradict yourself at times, sighing here but for example just the other day you're not exactly painting a pretty picture of life in Cali: http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/latin/messages/46466.html It's just unfortunate that the big news out of Colombia, if good, only paints a better picture of the bad news (like in today's El Pais-Cali, kidnapping is down for the 1st 7 months of '03 by 30% - that's great news but still bad news - that means 1,276 kidnapped year to date in Colombia). I'll make a valiant effort in the future to provide more "good news" reports, like I did when I reported my trip report of 3 days kiteboarding up in Calima recently. Problem is I can only post stuff like that when I'm down there. So please, Traveller and anyone else that can, give us those "good news" reports and there will be less "sighing" in the future. Title: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: zack on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place, posted by Traveller on Aug 27, 2003
Traveler, After reading el colombiano's post I was eager to hear what you had to say about it since you live in Colombia, but you didn't say much. Have you experienced similar problems, besides the threats? Zack Title: Re: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: Traveller on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous pla..., posted by zack on Aug 27, 2003
No, I didn't say anything because it's always the same posts. "Oooh, Colombia, dangerous, beware." After 4 years of defending the place and relaying my experiences of it, I'm just tired of saying, it isn't that bad. I think everybody knows my view of what it's like here. As I told my Dad yesterday when he told me to be careful down here. I said, Dad, I feel safer walking the streets of Cali than I would walking the streets of West or Central Fresno. Quite frankly, I know some of you guys want to hear what it's like here from my point of view, but I'll just sum it up saying this: No matter what you have read, it's not that bad here. For example, a few years ago on this board a guy gave the stats on the murder rate of Cali and was like, See, see how dangerous Cali is. Someone did the math that the guy had laid out with his statistics and if those stats were correct, Cali killed half it's poulation every year. Come on. Title: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: Cali James on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous..., posted by Traveller on Aug 27, 2003
Hey Traveller, I have a lot of respect for your opinion on a variety of topics but in this one area, I just disagree. I love Cali as much as anyone and if I could, I'd be there right now. I never discourage anyone who is serious about finding a wife from going to Colombia either. I'd even like to live in Cali with my wife some day. But having said that I still think Colombia in general is a far more dangerous place than the United States to live. My wife from Cali and I live in Northern California now and Cali IMO is much more dangerous than any city within a couple of hours of here. Sure there are bad areas in Oakland that there's no way in hell I'd enter after dark, but there are very bad barrios in Cali too that even taxis avoid. So what's the point of my argument. I'm not trying to bad mouth Colombia in any way but I don't think Cali or Bogota equate with any other U.S. city as some people have suggested. I don't think it's even close. That's not to say that there aren't incredibly dangerous neighborhoods in the inner cities, right here in the U.S., of course there are. But the reality is, most of us don't live or venture out in these areas. When I talk about Cali being a lot more dangerous, I'm comparing my day to day activities, in strata 4,5 and 6 barrios and commercial parts of Cali with middle class activities here in the States. I don't think there's any comparison. I've spent a year in Cali, generally in nice areas and witnessed more violence first hand than I've witnessed my whole life living in three states in western United States. Granted, my experiences are anecdotal but for me it has left an impression on me that I can't ignore. I know very few people in Cali who have family or friends who have not been affected directly by very violent crimes. With the exception of some very random and infrequent cases, I can not say the same for the family and friends I have here in the States. James Title: Re: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: thundernco on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous pla..., posted by zack on Aug 27, 2003
Zack, I live there also, actually split my time between San Francisco and Cali, and have been back and forth in CO in some capacity since about '88. Yes there are shootings, muggings, robbery, homicide and kidnaps. That said, I did my undergrad in Los Angeles and that was no different except for maybe slightly less kidnapping. Let's face it, Cali is a big city by CO standards, and the poverty rate is very high so crime will happen. However, that is no different than our larger cities, in CO we just tend to stick out a bit more = be a bit more careful and you'll be fine. The final point for me is: I live with my wife and kids in Cali, there is no way in hell that I would ever live in some cities in the good 'ol USA, much less ever move my family to. Take Care -TNC Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous place Post by: zack on August 27, 2003, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Cali can be a very dangerous..., posted by thundernco on Aug 27, 2003
I grew up near Chicago and I have to agree with you and Traveller. Even though my experiences in Cali are much less than yours, I would still feel safer walking through Cali than I would south Chicago. Zack |