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Aaron took alot of heat below for suggesting Bruce's story might be made up.To most of us it seems so obvious that Bruce is very real.
I have always liked Aaron and think he is a sincere truthfull person.
It seems to me he might have taken it a little too personal when he stated some opinions that were not well recieved by alot of people,including Bruce.Actually guys jumped all over him knocking his opinions.And he defended them back.He is a bit of an idealist I think.Not a bad thing,you just have to weave it together with your experience.
It makes me wonder if him being a little miffed at Bruce might have caused his post.
So it makes me a little sad that Aaron seems miffed for having his ideas put down and guys are angry at him about his post.He is a good guy and I want him to hang around.
Also,Aaron told me in a private mail that Colman was offended by our
thread on Colombians and lying and quit posting here.I feel a little bad about that because I was one of the main posters telling stories of lies.I didn't mean to insult all Colombians or Colman.

Pete

... in response to Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jun 29, 2003

Pete,
I definitely have to question your taste after reading your post.  You've always liked Aaron????  This is a guy who surely has many issues, and is in for a rude awaking if he continues with his search for a latin wife.  I see nothing but hard times for him.  Phd's come a dime a dozen......not much money to be made, unless it's in the medical arena. They are usually arrogant, condescending people.  And when someone comes along who has more experience and a little more knowledge, they get very defensive, and can't seem to handle it.

... in response to Re: Aaron, posted by beenthere on Jul 1, 2003

To me Aaron did nothing that anyone would object to untill fairly recently.He got defensive,condesending and holier than thou when he reacted after posted some opinions that took some heat.
I think he is "in his head" to some extent,but I still like the guy.I guess I am going back to alot of earlier things he shared.
It does seem a little petty the way he picked on Bruce.So I understand alot of you guys being pissed at him.I think he is still the basically good guy that got caught up in negatively reacting.It seems like he was trying to get even for having been roasted by Bruce and others.Not what we should be doing here I think,particularly when someone has a big problem he is willing to tell us about.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jul 1, 2003

Pete - you may or may not get angry at me but your attempt to "spin" Aaron's behavior is, I am sorry, comical..lol

I know you like politics but be sure to stick to your day job.

I really think that Bruce's take on Aaron's behavior more accurately reflects the reality of his actions.

If Aaron had done nothing that anyone would object to until fairly recently, then why would someone like Bruce and others "roast" him.  From what I have seen from Bruce - he has a high tolerance for b.s. before he lets someone have it, so maybe Aaron deserved his "roasting". For you to say it does seem a little "petty the way he picked on Bruce".  What an understatement.  After all he attacked Bruce's integrity and suggested he was making this all up, which is no light matter.  After that bombed he went after him for sloppily "planning" his marriage.  

I would think that nothing less than a full blown apology to Bruce is in order from Aaron if he were any type of a gentleman.  But that of course requires humility, not one of Aaron's stronger qualities.  If you have wronged someone, there is a way back.

Take care Pete.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Aaron, posted by Edge on Jul 1, 2003

Edge,
I agree with you about his behavior of late.Not only did he treat Bruce unfairly but he seems to have become a know it all,telling others how they should/should have done it.And his opinions have seemed simplistic,idealistic and juvenile,so they got him responses he did not like and now seems to be reacting.
Juvenile is a good word for the behavior I think.But before he got in to this spiral of negative stuff I thought him to be sincere,and a nice guy,if a little niave.I guess he has brought the nice guy in to question also.
Probably what really gets him nailed is he seems to think he is some sort of expert,or that his acedemic credentials means he knows something.He does know some things,he is not entirely,but to a large extent,of base.
Guess I hate to give up on the Aaron I thought I knew before he got in to this sorry little critical role.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jul 2, 2003

I had hoped you would be able to have some influence on him since you guys are friendly.  He is a very headstrong individual so anyone would have their hands full trying to influence him.  Sometimes friends cannot save friends from their own destructive behavior.  Like JunFan with houndog.  They spiral downhill and nothing seems to stop the self-destruction.

A man of maturity would probably recognize their error and also recognize the right way to proceed to rectify a wrong.  You can go back after starting down the wrong road if you are willing to humble yourself to do the right thing.

Thanks for the post Pete.

... in response to Pete, posted by Edge on Jul 2, 2003

Yeah it surprised me he has gotten so negative.I didn't follow the whole thread where he stated some opinions that got dumped on and it went downhill from there.I guess he is offended or has gotten caught up in a I'm right your wrong thing.But he went from a nice guy to a pain in the butt.

Pete

... in response to Re: Aaron, posted by beenthere on Jul 1, 2003


For Been there:

Obviously you haven't "been there" or done a demanding Ph.D program.  Ph.D's do not come a dime a dozen.  I'tell you what, assuming you have an undergraduate degree, apply for a graduate program at a top American university, get accepted, and spend the next 5 years of your life, taking and passing 50 hours of upper level graduate work, writing a 250 page original thesis, reading, studying and taking notes for 5-6 hours a day for 10 months to prepare for 6 hours of oral examinations stretching over 2 days in which a panel of 5 examiners can ask you anything about your specialty.  And do all of it while you're working 30 hours a week.  I'll even let you choose the field.

That is how I spent my life between the ages of 23 and 28 You may think I'm arrogant or condescending, and no one has called me "Dr." in more then 11 years, it still is one of the proudest achievments of my life.

You know the saying...If you haven't walked in someone's shoes...

Dominguin

... in response to Don't dis what you haven;' done., posted by DOMINGUIN on Jul 1, 2003

Domiguin,
First of all my name "beenthere" refers to my experiences in Colombia........that's what this board is about, isn't it??  Does it take a PhD to figure that out??  
Second, my brother and his wife are both PhD's........to earn a PhD is no harder than starting a business, working your way up the company ladder, or becoming a success in any field, it just takes committment; no great intelligence.  I've known many PhD's in my life, and the majority like to throw their "intelligence" in one's face.
As far as the price you've paid for your success, congratulations.............I would love to tell you the price I've paid over the years to become a successful businessman, starting a business from scratch 20 years ago, but I don't want this to become a pissing match on success stories.
Based on Aaron's posts, he has a long way to go to get his degree.

... in response to Re: Don't dis what you haven;' done., posted by beenthere on Jul 2, 2003


Been there:

When you make a statement that Ph.D's are a dime a dozen its a stereotype and a "put down" remark to the mena nd women who have made the commitment and demonstrated the perseverance to receive a Ph.D. in their chosen field.  

Obviously you're quite proud of being a self made businessman.  How would you react if someone wrote a post that successful entrepreneurs are a "dime a dozen."  

We can have a debate on the different kind of intelligences needed to complete a Ph.D program, to climb the company ladder and to build a successful business, so lets not debate it.  Lets just agree that perseverance is one of if not, the most important key to success in any field of legitimate achievement.

Sincerely,
Dominguin  

... in response to Re: Re: Don't dis what you haven;' done., posted by DOMINGUIN on Jul 2, 2003

Dominguin,
Please accept my apology if I offended you or any others on the board with my comment.  It was out of line.
Thanks for your response.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Don't dis what you haven;' d..., posted by beenthere on Jul 2, 2003


Been there

Thank you for showing class. It was graciou of you.

i have to admit I do have a little fun with my doctorate from time to time.  My business card has the Ph.D after my name, some people will ask about it and I look around quickly over my shoulder in a mysterious, secretive wanner and tell the people in a hushed voice that that I was employed by a secretive government agency in Washington for 10 years doing detailed analysis before I went into he private sector.  Now I am an insurance adjuster of large commercial property losses, but a few pewople ask me whether I was some kind of Jack Ryan Ph.D tyoe who worked for the CIA.  Of course that's the response I'm fishing for!    I start laughing and tell them that my Ph.D is in economic public policy and econometrics.  I worked at the OMB (Office of Management of the Budget for 10 years during the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations.

The secretive part of the OMB is: "If the American public only knew the complete truth about how the Feberal budget really gets put together"....Now, Pete don't get started!

Anyway, thanks again for the apology, lets move on.

Sincerely,
Dominguin

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't dis what you haven..., posted by DOMINGUIN on Jul 2, 2003

I'm a psychometrician. After the program, I plan to work (I have allot of options), and maybe work on another master's part time in mathematical statistics.

Take care,
Aaron

... in response to Dominguin, you're a bad brother....., posted by Aaron on Jul 3, 2003

I believe the psycho part.

... in response to Re: Dominguin, you're a bad brother....., posted by lswote on Jul 3, 2003

Bruce,
I thought that but wasn't going to say it.Sounds real practical whatever it is.

Pete

... in response to Don't dis what you haven;' done., posted by DOMINGUIN on Jul 1, 2003

MY COMPS WERE A B*TCH, and I'm still frustrated from them a year ago. LOL !!!! Also, what I'm going through now is.....

I'm tired of directing and conducting analyses on projects, but the Professors get all the recognition and make all the cash from the grants (No offense to you. I'm sure you went through it too.)

But, I'll be humble about it, and pay my dues. And all the effort I've put into my education has made me a stronger person, more responsible, direct, and in some ways a little high minded.

I will say this Dominguin, being a professor at a university is probably the best type of job for an experience like this because of the following reasons:

1.) the university offers excellent benefits for dependents, especially with the health care coverage and reduced tuition. Everyone in your family can go to school with reduced tuition.

2.) you can make a flexible schedule, and devote time to your spouse helping her become acclimated, as well as time to your entire family.

3.) tenure !!!!!!!!!!

4.) and the one I like most is, you can schedule time for private consulting and research during the school year and summer months. A very good, close, and more mature Colombian woman friend (who's already married to another good Colombian man with a Ph.D.) earned her Ph.D. from my university last year. We've known each other for 6 years. When she started, she couldn't speak any English, but now she's fluent. We became close friends, and I would help her with her writing. She returned back to Colombia, and is doing well. She and I are planning on making some research in Colombia after I finish. No, we are not EXTREMELY RICH PEOPLE. But, we live very comfortably and very sensibly.

Take Care,
Aaron

... in response to Tell The Truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by Aaron on Jul 1, 2003

Aaron does your arm ever get sore from patting yourself on the back?

... in response to Tell The Truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by Aaron on Jul 1, 2003

Aaron,
There is alot to say for a University education.But if you never venture out from within the walls of acedamia and you associate with alot of others doing the same you can get in to a form of group think that can be very much out of step with reality.Its amazing to me some of the really rediculous things that can come from people that are supposed to be highly educated.The citizens of the country pay to support these institutions and instead of getting wise teachers we can get people who are totaly out of touch with reality. I know, had some for proffesors.They were some of the most rediculous people I ever met.And  they are supposed to be highly educated?I think it can become a little click of idealistic people who don't even want anyone to express any ideas that don't agree with thier own.
Divergent opinions are suppressed.This is free speach?Far from it.
I am thinking right now one  particular proffesor,actually the head of his department.Biggest fool I ever met.We were all just laughing at him he was so rediculous.But if you wanted to graduate from his department you were going to have a really tough time if you didn't accept his nonsense.It was a big eye opener for me.And I was a young liberal at the time.Intelligence and credentials are not the same as wisdom.And then these fools choose to mentor only young people who are willing to think just like them.
I don't mean to say this is all University proffesors.I'm sure you know some good ones.But that it should exist at all in an invirement paid for by taxpayers where the objective we would think should be the open exchange of ideas for the purpose we would hope of obtaining wisdom.
I really believe there are some really subversive people who have way too much influence in education.One would think the negative outcomes of socialism and communism would be pretty clear by now.But not in the ivory towers.

Pete

... in response to Watch out for university reality avoidan..., posted by Pete E on Jul 1, 2003

Good post Pete,

As I mentioned earlier, my brother earned a PhD, and for 15 years taught at a medical school.  During the years he was earning his masters and his PhD, as well as the years he taught, he was the most arrogant, aloof person you could ever meet.  A few years back he decided to get into the private sector and work for a larger corporation.  I told his wife that he had better change, since his kind of behavior would not float in a corp. environment.  Hats off to him he did change and now is a very pleasant individual, even HUMBLE, and has been very successful in his new career.
I had a talk with him about it, and he admitted that most PhD's have this attitude, and are so caught up in their "intellectual" side that it is hard for them to behave any other way.
So Aaron & Dominigue, I congratulate your successes, but as I stated earlier, it is no different from anyone elses success...........to sacrifice for 5 years to achieve a degree is a bargain compared to most.  Come back down here to earth with the rest of us.

... in response to Re: Watch out for university reality avo..., posted by beenthere on Jul 2, 2003

I worked with afew PHDs. One in particular is one of the most intelligent people, I have ever met. I don't think he is aloof at all, but is somewhat immature. He recieved his PHD at age 23, so that is to be understood. He would get somewhat defensive and maybe feel slighted if someone with lesser abilities were to recieve accolades.

I was a "lowly" sales guy. Graduated from the school of experience. We bumped heads more than once, and at one point I think he really resented me. The poor guy would work himself ragged on some seriously powerful programming, only to have me say. . . . . yeah but "in the real world, I'd sell way more if it worked like this" Plus, because I got paid commision, I made considerably more than he did, which I am sure did not help.

I can totally understand a guy working himself ragged and obtaining a PHD, resenting a salesman, "criticizing" his work. At one point before a major product launch, things got really heated. I and one other guy came close to walking.

The owner of the company, who IS the smatest guy I ever met and has no college degree whatsoever, stepped in and we ironed things out. Once the trade show started and I was doing "my thing" demoing to huge crowds, he seemed to all of a sudden have respect for what I did. he started calling me "the man" and asking my opinion etc. Our relationship was much better after that, and although I no longer work with him, we are still friends.

I still send him feature suggestions and way more than 50% make it into the software. I had always had a world of respect for him, not for his PHD, but for his huge talent at writing code that was incredible, and also the short amount of time he required to do it. I think after seeing me "in action" for 4 years or so, he realized, I'm a pretty bright guy. If getting a PHD was my goal in life, I'd be able to do it. If I wanted to be a great  code writer, I'd be great at that, though not as good as he is! OTOH, he would never be able to do what I do, because it is more of a personality thing. Being comfortable in front of large groups of people, entertaining them and most of all getting them to buy what it is I was selling, isn't easy for many people. This earned his respect.

I think he has matured quite a bit the past few years. I guess when the majority of your life has been in academia, you are less likely to be mature and saavy in real world situations etc.

He never mentions having a PHD, and in fact seems somewhat embarrassed when others bring it up. Aaron on the other hand seems to be obsessed with the idea of one day having a PHD. Definite superiority complex there.

... in response to Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jun 29, 2003

Pete

If a person wants forgiveness they need to apologize first.

Steve

... in response to Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jun 29, 2003

[This message has been edited by wizard]

Pete:

I was raised to believe that "you get as good as you give"... IMHO, Aaron took a back-handed swipe at Bruce for no apparent reason... Defend him if you like, that's your business... Personally, I feel that Aaron's post was in poor taste, regardless of the reason... It displayed immaturity and insensitivity beyond belief... Bruce responded with remarkable restraint... Moreso than I would have...

This is a public forum and anyone can post anything relatively close to being on-topic... Aaron is no exception... He is welcome to believe or dis-believe anything he desires... But if you post outlandish views, you better be prepared to back them up...

Think about the number of times Aaron has been in the "eye of the storm" around here... It makes me wonder if HE is for real, or just another troll stirring up the sh!t...

As a matter of fact, where is Senor Aaron??? He hasn't bothered to reply to ANY of the posts today after he stirred the pot!!! Sling some sh!t and run for cover...

mis dos centavos...

Mark

... in response to redux, posted by wizard on Jun 29, 2003

encourage Aaron to apologize to Bruce.  Whether he does not not that is what I would recommend.

mis dos centavos.

... in response to Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jun 29, 2003

if you want to wet nurse Aaron - I think that is exactly what he needs.  He needs someone with life experience to help and counsel him. I have never really gone after Aaron for his voicing his opinions.  People can decide if what he says is legitimate or not.  I think he has some good qualities and I am not into tearing him down.  But man, the immaturity and ego - he has alot to overcome.  Bruce may have ragged on him here & there from what I remember - but so what, he should be able to defend himself.  If you are going to post here, you need to be able to realize people are not always going to agree with you.  Now would have been the time for Aaron to put that aside, but no - he has to try to tear into Bruce's credibility and kick a guy when he is really down and vulnerable.

 You can defend him all you want, if Aaron expects to be treated well here, a low class move like that is not going to cut it.

... in response to Aaron, posted by Pete E on Jun 29, 2003

Actually I felt that was probably exactly why Aaron posted, but I am not really in the mood to get into a mudslinging contest so I figured I would answer his question as if it were legitimate as best I could and leave it at that.

Aaron is a hard person to read.  I know I am hard on him in part because I was an idealist when I was younger, though not quite extreme as him.  I think idealism is good if tempered with reality but I think he is not real good at understanding the reality of many situations.

... in response to Re: Aaron, posted by lswote on Jun 29, 2003

Bruce,
I just re read your answer to Aaron.You did just give some evidence of yourself and leave it at that,not responding negatively.Some other guys really took him to task for you and I understand their response also.
But it did trouble me that you said you wished you had never posted the story.I think this board is not only to share our experience,which you have done alot of,but also to help and support each other when we can.It was very appropriate for you to share your story and I'm glad you did.We all need support when something difficult happens.
My wife doesn't like me to post here.She doen't undestand that it is expression for me,plus giving and recieving support and help from others.To me our common interests has caused a sense of comraderie with guys most of whom I have never met.I enjoy it alot.I feel like I know some of you guys I have never met.

Pete