Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

There has been a deep discussion about the Colombian cliche..."no da la papaya." In my opinion, it makes allot of sense, but can be applied in many favorable and not so favorable contexts to justify acceptable and not so acceptable behavior.

Let's be honest here, because I believe some guys are pinning it all on the Colombians, and their "Indian culture" (as Jim C. put it in the past), which is a stupid statement to make. However, looking beyond that, let us be honest here, and openly admit that allot of guys in their search for Latina partners in the agencies have followed the "no da la papaya" rule to justify their search, engagement, and marriage, as well as how they went about the process.  

The "papaya rule" is a cultural cliche. That's it. Nothing else. All cliches can be used to justify acceptable and not so acceptable behavior depending on who uses them, and when they are used. Some will have the tendency to use it in a positive way, others will use it to justify negative behavior. For example, I had heard of a gringo going to spend two weeks with a woman who lived in Barrio AguaBlanca de Cali. When I heard that...I myself immediately said "AHI YIKES, NO DA LA PAPAYA!!!!!!!!!" When I said that, I immediately realized that I'm too Colombian. In another situation, if I were to meet a knock out of a woman in terms of intelligence, looks, career, and personality, then "NO DA LA PAPAYA...I better keep her and forget the others!!!!!!!!" Or, a guy with a different value system looking to meet tricks and hoes, might just say "NO DA LA PAPAYA, I'm keeping her number just in case of a dry season!!!!!!"

But, besides all that, with regards to marriage. I think it is best to get to know the person during a decent period of courtship just to learn how infact the woman will use the papaya rule in any given situation. Let's not make generalizations here about people based on various applications of a cultural cliche. I think the real issue is about the intentions of the individual person we get involved with in the first place.

Aaron

My 2500.000 pesos.

Aaron

Also, don't be naive to think that people in USA board rooms, executives, ceos, parents, children, presidents, husband and wives, and other blue and white collar Americans don't lie as much. We lie too, but how we do it in some arenas makes it considered an acceptable practice. And if it isn't considered acceptable, the stiff penalities applied when caught red-handed are often times enough to scare potentially devious people from being corrupt even when they are tempted. Dishonesty is everywhere. If you think deceitfulness is more so engrained in Latin America rather than here in the USA, then why in the world have you considered a Latina for a wife?

Aaron

Also, does your cynical attitude towards Calenas justifies using them for quick and easy sex, without having any respect for them?

Yalg. You're a desperate idiot. I can see right through you. And, I'm pretty sure you actually are a poster from the past who is either embarrassed to post using your old name, or was banned by Patrick.

Aaron

I don't know, maybe my Colombian wife is an exception, but she has only lied to me once the whole time I have known her and that was when she said we were out of cheese when we weren't because she thought is was a good way to keep me from taking a late night snack.  I informed her I never want games played like that and I always want the truth even in instances like that.  But I certainly wouldn't characterise her in anyway as a liar and I have had many opportunities to see if what she she said was the truth and it always was.

That aside, I think this argument between Yalg and Aaron over lust and sex seems to miss the big picture.  You better have some lust and sex with your woman or you'll either lose interest in her at sometime in the future or you won't realize the full potential of your relationship.  But sex and lust don't operate in a vacuum.  You can lust after a woman and want to have sex with her all the time, and it can be a wonderful thing if you understand the object of your lust is also a person whom you want to pursue with the same passion you want to get into her pants with.  Sex isn't a dirty thing and if you think it is, you do yourself and your woman a dis-service.

Aaron

We have to remember that Aaron has been searching for over 5 years... Anyone in the hunt for that long and still has not found the right woman is likely to never find someone he considers his equal...

But, having said that, Aaron is obviously out of touch with reality...

Nuff said...

I can only speak for myself but when I first moved to Colombia I believed what people would tell me.  I came from a background where your word was your honor and so I tended to trust people.  I quickly learned however that in Colombia, trust should never be given freely and it is better earned.  I noticed that people were extremely suspicious of others and over time I found myself not trusting in others either.  

In my opinion, the papaya way of thinking is the fundamental problem facing Colombia today.  The FARC could be gone tomorrow but you'd still have a people who have little faith in anything outside their immediate family or self.  You can't build a strong economy or culture with this type of mentality, it will always fail.

You're generalizing about Colombians by saying that most are unethical, lie, and are corrupt, and that Colombia is in the state that it is in because of the mentality that most people have. You can make that statement, but becareful because ideas like that have a funny way of pinching us in the azz down the road. And if you had such strong negative feelings and/or thoughts about Colombians, then why in the world were you there looking for a wife in the first place?

Yes, Colombia has a problem with corruption and ethics, but so do other places. And no, the FARC cannot just be eliminated tomorrow if everyone corrected their so called "papaya mentality".

Your making a fundamental mistake by comparing Colombian standards to USA standards. You cannot make such a comparison because the countries have different histories, and have experienced different levels of prosperity. Also, how much compatibility do you think an "aristocrate will have with a third world bar tender?" Let alone a guy "who considers himself from a first world nation, with so-called superior ethics and value system, dating and marrying a woman from the third world who wasn't as fortunate". The two types of people have different realities. They probably shouldn't cross paths in the first place.

The key is to try to understand why things are the way they are, why people do the things they do, without being victumized. I don't consider myself as a moral purist, but I have my limits for things that I consider as being unethical. But, one thing I do like, especially in the Colombian context, is how they have a different concept of truth and justice, and how they are interpreted. I think that is really interesting, and in some respects it has opened up my mind to understand the differences between us. And it helps me to make deep relationships with Colombian people.

Well, you're married now. You have to face the "papaya rule" on a daily basis. I hope you're with someone that uses it to express the positive, rather than the negative. This is why it is so important to take enough time to get to know your potential partner, especially someone coming from the 3rd world who would like to live in a 1st world country.

Aaron  

I can't speak for others, but you are so off the mark from the personal experience I have had with my wife, it is hard for me to believe you have even been to Colombia.

My "third world" wife constantly urges me to stand up straight when I walk, dress nicer when we go out, don't burp at the dinner table, fills my lunch with salads and other things that take into consideration calories and cholesteral, has filled my house with plants in just 5 weeks of living here, passed her driver's license test on the first try, and endless other things that are indicative of her not being disadvantaged in any way in this "first world country" and she seems to have no problem at all relating to her "aristocratic first-world" husband.

Aaron, you are so out of touch with what you are talking about that I wonder if you could pour piss out of boot with directions on the heel.

I was explaining that you can't compare the two people, they have different realities, and most likely will not be compatible. So, given that, you can't pass judgments about their differences.  

As for aristocratic Colombianas, I'm friends with many. And, if your wife is as you described her, then she is a very classy lady.

Take Care,
Aaron

This is an area that always amazes me in Cali.  I think I have pretty decent manners but a lot of things have become habit.  For example, I will use my fork to cut something instead of picking up the table knife.  My wife has corrected me on this a couple of times.

Let me respond to a few of your remarks;

Aaron;
You're generalizing about Colombians by saying that most are unethical, lie, and are corrupt, and that Colombia is in the state that it is in because of the mentality that most people have.

James;
Of course I'm generalizing, this is a macro level discussion. I never said that most people lie or are unethical but in my dealing with people in Colombia I began to see patterns of how the papaya expression if you will is played out in real life.  My own opinion is that it is real and that it is a product of many things with curruption and unethical behavior at the top of the list.  Longs periods of curruption from the government on down to the church and even into the family, where infidelity is out of control, all affect the psychy of a people.  I think the papaya is really just a product of this.  This national pschy of distrust, negatively impacts Colombia in many ways.  For me it is obvious and you see it in the day to day interaction you have with people.  It also affects the economy as resources are under-utilized or inefficiently used because the lack of a fully developed infrastructure. The situation in Colombia is complex and I'm not putting the blame for all it's problems at the foot of the papaya.  What I'm saying is that little progress will occur in Colombia IMO until faith in institutions and each other are restored.  

Aaron;
And if you had such strong negative feelings and/or thoughts about Colombians, then why in the world were you there looking for a wife in the first place?

James;
I like to think that I have positive feelings about people in general and Colombians in particular as they are my adopted country of sorts.  But this does not mean I don't see problems. The world's not always black and white but many times grey.  There are many negative things happening in Colombia but that does not mean there aren't good things either.  For instance, the strong family that you often see in Colombia is a positive.  Anyway, my comments are more macro than anything else and have little to do with my feelings or sentiments for any one individual.  

Aaron;
Your making a fundamental mistake by comparing Colombian standards to USA standards. You cannot make such a comparison because the countries have different histories, and have experienced different levels of prosperity.

James;
Of course they have different histories and experiences but compare and contrast is fundamental to discourse.  You yourself are quite comfortable with comparisons with the United States when it suits your argument (remember the CEOs in their backrooms) and so I see nothing inherently wrong with it provided the comparison is meaningful.

But to be honest, I don't expect Colombia to be a miny United States economicly, this was never my point.  My point is that Colombia's economic problems are negatively affected by the papaya psychy that is so pervasive.

Aaron;
The key is to try to understand why things are the way they are, why people do the things they do, without being victumized.

James;
That's what I thought I was doing.  I am trying to understand why things are they way they are and offer some ideas about it.  I'm not sure I understand what you mean "without being victimized" but I hardly think my macro opinions about some aspects of Colombian society are creating victims.  Every culture has to take some responsibility for those things that it helped create, sometimes these things are positive sometimes these things are negative.

Aaron;
Well, you're married now. You have to face the "papaya rule" on a daily basis. I hope you're with someone that uses it to express the positive, rather than the negative. This is why it is so important to take enough time to get to know your potential partner, especially someone coming from the 3rd world who would like to live in a 1st world country.

James;
On the contrary, I don't face the papaya rule on a daily basis here in California with my wife but I do experience it on the streets of Cali when I return to Colombia. This discussion for me anyway has nothing to do with my wife and our marriage other than that my wife is Colombian.

The papaya cliche is nothing but a cliche. It can be used in a positive way, or a negative way by positive or negative people. It is a simple cliche. The rule is not inheritly negative. Me comprendes? Tambien, it is not wise to generalize about Colombian people by saying that "in general Colombians lie, are corrupt, and have a distorted psyche," especially when you are married to one.  

Simple,
Aaron

The cliche isn't important in and of itself.  I was making an observation about a problem I see in Colombia and the papaya cliche is just an expression of it for me.  Most people I've spoken to in Cali understand that the papaya cliche in somewhat the context I was using it but I've taken it further and said that the sentiment behind the expression is so pervasive that it's become part of the national psyche if you will.  

As for your comments on my generalizing, I'm not saying the exact words you are attributing to me. I'm not saying "in general Colombians lie" rather I'm saying that lying and curruption are so pervasive in Colombian culture from top to bottom that people are distrustful of just about everything outside their immediate family.  I'm also saying that over time I believe this distrustfulness has crept into the national psche and that it negatively affects Colombia's ability to deal with the many real problems it faces.

The fact that I'm married to a Colombian is not really relevant to this discourse.

The only issues that I addressed are: 1.) "no da la papaya" is simply a cliche that can be used to express positive and negative behavior; and 2.) don't make broad generalizations that corruption and lying is ingrained in the Colombian culture. It isn't. They may be common in everyday life, but that is the case for every country.

Take Care,
Aaron

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, lying and corruption are pervasive in Colombian society (not culture) unfortunately.  

There's a difference between society and culture, whereby society is more about what one experiences and how to get by from day to day. But, culture is about what values are important, and how they are taught.

I will say one thing. Colombian culture has more or less similar values as that in the USA, but because of the society there, many people forego the values that they were taught, or were not taught cultural values in the first place. That's the crux of the DOING SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE DONE, AND NOT DOING WHAT SHOULD BE DONE issue. Allot of people know what is the right thing to do because of how they were taught, but they behave in the contrary to satisfy some preceived need.  

So the task is to meet and associate with people that have similar values, and that live by those values.  

Take Care,
Aaron

Yes, there is allot of corruption and deceitfulness in Colombia, but not all Colombians are that way, and among decent PEOPLE (Colombian or American), such behaviors are not acceptable.

All I'm saying is that statements like "corruption and lying are ingrained in Colombia" or "Colombians think less of telling lies" are dangerous, especially for people that are married to a Colombian.

Aaron