Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

My fiancee and I have decided to cancel our fiancee visa application and marry in Peru.  When I applied for the fiancee visa, I included orignal envelopes and letters, and photos, for proof of our relationship.  When I cancel the fiancee visa application, can i request my documents/fotos back so I can apply for the spousal visa and use them for that?

... in response to Cancelling a fiancee visa application, posted by Troy on May 13, 2004

My Vietnamese fiance solved the problem of the family wanting a ceremony before sending the daughter/sister off to a foreign land: we are having an engagement party.

... in response to Have an engagement party, posted by Hamlet on May 15, 2004

I think my fiancee wants everything official.  She's somewhat by the book.  I don't mind marrying her there, even if I'm taking a chance.  It's just the extra hassle and paperwork that bother me

... in response to Re: Have an engagement party, posted by Troy on May 15, 2004

Even if YOU are taking a chance!

What about the chance SHE is taking? She won't even get round-trip ticket- just pack up and go on a promise. How many guys would have the guts to do that?

Fiance(e) visas are a crock. If a guy is serious, he can damn well go marry the lady and prove it- to her, her family, the government and God. And wait a few extra months, maybe- big freakin' deal.

And phony wedding ceremonies are a crock too. If you don't say 'I take this woman to be my wife.' it ain't a wedding and if you do you are married. There ain't no half way.

... in response to She wants to be married!, posted by HaroldC on May 16, 2004

To an extent, I agree with you.  The fiancee visa is a huge risk for the lady.  She has to leave her job, her family, her life, to live in a foreign land on a trial basis, completely dependant upon the man that brought her here.  What is worst, is that the reality of it being on a 'trial basis' conveys the understanding that if things don't work out, she has to go.  And then, she has to hope that the man isn't too upset with her to help her 'go', otherwise, she's in big trouble.

Honestly, I really wanted to use the fiancee visa, but I now can see how it is a bit selfish.  In retrospect, I would much rather marry my love in her home country.  I want to respect her, her family, and her customs.  I've known her for about year, so if my marriage to her doesn't work out, at least I can say I didn't really rush into it.  

I wonder how others feel about the fiancee visa, or if other see it as being biased toward the man.

... in response to Cancelling a fiancee visa application, posted by Troy on May 13, 2004

Perhaps she'll settle for a church wedding without a license? There is a deal of difference between a simple church wedding and one where the wedding license has been purchased, the certificate issued, and it all registered with the Peruvian authorities and therefore blessed by the state. Without the legal documents like a license and a certificate of marriage, you are not LEGALLY married, you have merely exchanged vows of monogamy before witnesses. Not the same thing in the eyes of the law. Much like gay "marriages" or "civil unions". They mean something to the participants but are not codified (yet) into law or recognized by government.

It may be her family wants to make sure she is married before sending her off to the USA. Sort of to insure your intentions are honorable. I imagine they have been told some horror stories about women taken to America, used, then dumped without the marriage and sent home,in "disgrace".

If you explain the situation that she will have to start all over again, and wait for a considerable time, she may settle for no marriage, or a clergy-only wedding. There are senior citizens in the US who divorce for economic reasons, forced to do so by medicare rules to qualify for aid. They then have a clergyman perform a church-only wedding so they are not living "in sin" but do not register the wedding with the civil authorities. Most priests will accomodate you, as their interest is strictly in the realm of religion and they have no imperitive to attend to the trappings of government. So long as the two of you are sincere, you will be married "in the church" even if the government does not recognize it.

Your mileage may vary.

... in response to Re: Cancelling a fiancee visa applicatio..., posted by senior citizen on May 14, 2004

I have to disagree Señor.

Your suggestion of having an “illegal” wedding ceremony without a license seems to be a popular one. It seems that there are an awful lot of people out there who have neither the patience nor the character to wait for something that is worth waiting for. All of this scheming and sneaking around just to save a few months of separation time seems to cheapen the solemnity of the marriage somewhat. I firmly believe that the couple should fully discuss their options and then choose ONE and ONLY ONE visa option to match the type of wedding that is right for them. Either have a legal wedding over there and apply for a spouse visa or get the fiancée visa and marry here. Waiting time for a visa should NOT be the primary reason for choosing one method over another. There are worse things than being separated for a few months longer.

I hear a lot of guys with the attitude that they want it all NOW and they will do anything to find a way to get it NOW. Waiting for the paperwork and the long separations aren’t any fun, but it isn’t really that bad either. Often, the separation time has the effect of strengthening the relationship and tends to build character IMHO. Taking the selfish attitude that their bride should be willing to lie or cheat to save them a few months of waiting doesn’t seem very manly to me, but maybe that’s just me.

Before going ahead with one of these “fake” marriage ceremonies, a guy should sit down and seriously consider all of the possible consequences, and not just their desire to have what they want NOW. The consular officers doing the interviews and the immigration officers at the POE are no dummies. They are always on the look out for visa fraud and one of the things they are checking for is a fiancée visa holder who is married before arrival. It isn’t uncommon for them to try and trick the ladies by asking seemingly innocent questions like “where is your husband now?” or “do you have any photos of your wedding?” or “what was the date of your wedding?”, stuff like that. Sometimes the girls will slip up and say something like “my husband” or “my mother-in-law” when they are supposed to be unmarried.

If you marry in one of those “fake” ceremonies, are you really married or not? For the guy it may be easy to rationalize that it wasn’t done legally so he isn’t married. For a young woman who believes that a religious wedding ceremony makes her truly married in the eyes of God, it may not be that simple to say that she is not married. Keep in mind also that she will have to swear under oath and in writing that she is not married when she completes and swears to the accuracy of the visa application (DS-156 & DS-156K). If asked under oath by the consular or immigration officer if she is married, can she look him straight in the eye and say “no”, or will she hesitate or give a wrong answer. Is she an accomplished liar? I hope not! What if she forgets to take off her ring before the interview or when getting off of the plane? What if there is a ring mark visible on her finger? Even though she is not “legally” married, a wrong answer or simple slip-up could raise enough suspicion to give the interviewer grounds to deny her a visa or entry to the U.S. until a further investigation can be completed, or possibly even a denial and a charge of visa fraud.

A lot of people have pulled it off without being caught but is it worth the risk to save few months of waiting??? These are just a few of the things to consider.

Marriage should be a solemn and serious event so why not just do it “right”? Believe me, the extra wait will not kill you… :-)

My $.02,

Ray

... in response to My opinion, posted by Ray on May 14, 2004

It is not a cheap or sacriligious act. If you two honestly plith your trough to each other before God and the priest, you are married in the eyes of God and the church. The heck with the trappings of Caesar. Nor is this an illegal marriage. If your intent is to use this to get her to the states, use her, and abandon her, then you are wrong. You lied to both priest and God. But if you intend to keep your vows to each other in the scarament of holy union, you have committed no sin.

The paperwork of Caesar has no meaning to your committment to each other before God and her family.

Honey and I had a civil marriage first. Mainly because I did not know she was sixteen and she and her parents did. Once she turned 18 we married in the church. I would not promulgate a lie to the priest or before God Almighty. I would not marry her in the church with what I knew to be untrue information on the marriage certificate signed by our priest. I do have to say that Honey followed her parent's instructions in the deception in the Philippines. She came clean to me after she became pregnant. She went to confession, did her pennance and is clean with the Lord, as did I. Once she was 18 we married in the church in a small, private ceremony.

I did nothing illegal in marrying her at 16 in the Philippiines as it was legal to marry a Filipina at 16 with her parent's permission. On their confession is the sin of lying to me and the JP who performed the civil ceremony. I could have married her knowingly at 16. The deception was because they knew I would not marry a minor. I thought she was 20-something. Once we were legally married in the civil sense, and she became pregnant, it was too late for me to have the marriage annulled. But neither of us would go to the altar with a lie on our lips.

So don't go saying that marrying in the church alone is somehow "illegal" or immoral. So long as you are honsetly joining each other in matrimony, I doubt God cares about a piece of paper foisted upon you by the state. No where in the Bible does it say "Maketh sure thee getteth a license from Caesar's minions before thou cometh to My church to marry". The church wedding ceremony is ancient and has nothing at all to do with the state.

I was merely suggesting a way to be married and still keep their K-1. Without a marriage license and certificate, in the eyes of the US government you are NOT married. If you have a church-only wedding you canNOT apply for a spousal visa.

The waiting period has nothign to do with their love with each other and everything to do with the government getting a bribe (fees) for it. Government wants to dictate every little aspect of your life and is unhappy until they do. It is government insistence on marriage licenses and certificates that creates this problem. Government has no business telling me whom I may marry, and they have no business keeping us apart merely out of pique and official obfuscation. You know very well the waiting periods and long lines are totally unnecessary. It is government showing its muscle and putting you in your place.

You don't have to take it, you know. If they leave a legal loophole, take it. It is neither illegal nor immoral to exploit an opening left by government in the rules. Hoist them by their own petard. Put them back in their place. Those loopholes were left there usually for a reason. Someone powerful/rich needed an exception and they left an opening for the rich person to use, just as they do in the tax laws.  Under the law, we are all supposed to be equal. If the rich man can use the loophole, so can I.

That is why I mentioned the poor elderly who have to use this to protect themselves from sin in the eyes of the church, and why the priests readily perform such ceremonies for them. Caesar's rules force them to divorce to live, and the church rejoins them in the eyes of God and the heck with the bureaucrats.

... in response to Re: My opinion, posted by senior citizen on May 14, 2004

I think you completely misunderstood my point Señor. I certainly didn’t say that a marriage in the church without a license was “sacrilegious” or “immoral”. Those were your words, not mine. On the contrary, I specifically made the point that the lady may be faced with a dilemma because she believes that a religious wedding ceremony makes her truly married in the eyes of God, which is also my personal belief. And I only used the term ‘“illegal” wedding ceremony’ (with illegal in quotes) because you said “not LEGALLY married” with legally in caps. What’s the difference? :-) And I certainly didn’t mean to imply that YOUR marriage was illegal or immoral. In fact, I had absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances of your own marriage when I replied to your post.

My whole point was to remind the readers out there who may be contemplating taking your advice or the similar advice of others, to use legal loopholes to get around the waiting time, that they and their prospective mate should be fully aware of some of the possible consequences. Those advising such a course of action, yourself included, usually seem to be either unaware of or choose to ignore the possible consequences. If both parties to the wedding are fully aware of what could happen and both decide to proceed anyway, then I have no problem with that. But I also expect that they shouldn’t complain if they are denied a visa or entry for any of the reasons that I mentioned. If someone is fully informed and wants to take the risk, that’s their choice. The problem that I have is with the guys who convince their bride to play the “legal loophole game” but don’t fully explain to her what could happen. Their motivation is almost always that they don’t want to wait and they put their new spouse in the uncomfortable position of possibly having to lie. I simply don’t think that’s fair to the young lady, that’s all.

You made the point that the government has no business telling you whom you may marry, and they have no business keeping you apart. I generally agree with the first part, as long as you are both consenting adults, but I also believe that society has the right to impose ‘some’ limits on what you can do. As far as the government having no business keeping you apart, I’m not exactly sure what your point is. If you are advocating completely open borders where anyone can marry anybody in the world and bring them here to our country without any restrictions whatsoever, then I have to disagree. I think that could easily turn into a complete fiasco. Are you for “open borders” for anyone and everyone? What if a U.S. citizen wants to marry a known terrorist? Does the government and society have any right to keep the terrorist out? I sure hope so! Sometimes the good of society outweighs your personal rights. You can go overseas and marry anyone you want without U.S. government permission and you can live overseas together with that person forever. But when you want to bring your mate here to the States, I believe that there needs to be some limits. I don’t know, your implication that the purpose of our immigration laws is based on the government showing its muscle and putting us in our place sounds a little weird to me. Do you really believe that the government is out to get you??? :-)

Ray

... in response to Re: Re: My opinion, posted by Ray on May 15, 2004

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I also do not recommend this action except when you are apparently faced with an adamant fiance. If explanations will not suffice you sometimes have to get creative.

Is the government out to get us? No. Is it out, as an institution to show us who's boss? Oh, you betcha! I worked for the government in a security situation and I know what the US government gets up to at times. Just think how many laws are totally useless exzcept to "save us from ourselves"? Seat belt laws for adults, for one, motorcycle helmet laws for adults for another. Of course the government has a vested interest in keeping out terrorists, as does society. However, the paperwork drill insisted upon by the government has absolutely nothing to do with catching terrorists trying to sneak into the country as spouses. If that were the criteria it would take about seven days for the government to check its database to see if your spouse is on a terrorist/Interpol/international-criminal list. In fact, you could submit your sweetheart's name, pic and fingerprint along with the K-1 application and it could all be checked out in less time than it normally takes for a government office to deign to admit to even having your paperwork on hand.

Did the government checks and balances stop any of the 9/11 hijackers from accomplishing their missions? No. In an open society that is the risk you run. We can have great security if we are like Nazi Germany or Saddam's Iraq. But we refuse to live that way. The slowdown on K-1 and other visa applications is more to make the governmnet LOOK like it is doing something rather than actually accomplishing anything. Perception is reality. If you slow down the process by 50% it looks to the public and congress like you are really doing a thorough check. If the people feel better, the congress can keep their phoney-baloney jobs and THEY are happy, so they will not bother to look and see if it is a real sea change (no) or merely official obfuscation to look busy (yes). And then, (oh joy!) when you look overworked you can always ask for more funding. In fact, the same checks are being done as before. No more, no less. The number of applications has not risen dramatically, if at all.

Look at the GIs who married the Iraqi women. These women were doctors and such, not scheming peasants. They were also quite beautiful. The GIs converted to Islam and married them. The first thing the government did was cancel their careers, then shipped them out to start the VISA process. I thought that your religion, and any changes you make to it, was protected by the First Amendment, but I guess not. Then the government also prevented them from returning to Iraq to see their brides and collect the necessary paperwork, even though they had been involuntarily discharged from the military with no charges ever brought against them, and as a consequence were now civilians. They would not be issued a passport and visa stamp for Iraq, and they would not be allowed to go over there again even if they were hired as civilian contractors by Halliburton. Since there is no functioning postal system in place in Iraq, it will be a while before they can collect the necessary documents and are reunited. After the free election in 2005, most likely. This was all from governmental pique. No other reason. It would be pretty easy to see if these women were undercover Iraqi agents bent upon coming to America and manufacturing a nuclear bomb out of common household items and then blowing up Washington. More likely it is the Islamic male from a target country who gets in unchecked, even though you and I have to remove our shoes and be frisked, due to political correctness. Can't profile against young males from Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, I guess.

The government is ALL about control. Which is why the feds were deliberately constricted by the constitution, and why they have constantly strived to seize more and more control. Time to put them back in their place.

... in response to My opinion, posted by Ray on May 14, 2004

Thanks everyone, but particularly Ray.  I always follow your advice.  Thanks

... in response to Cancelling a fiancee visa application, posted by Troy on May 13, 2004

Troy,

You don’t need that stuff for a spousal petition. Anything that you submitted with your K-1 petition should be considered gone. You may get it back, but I would simply forget about that stuff and move along with your current plans. If there was anything irreplaceable that you submitted, you were supposed to submit photocopies so it’s too late now. Forget the photos, make more prints from the negatives or use other photos. I’m sure that you must have other letters also.

Why are you in a hurry to cancel your petition? Howard made a good point. You won’t get your money back and the petition will eventually die on it’s own anyway unless there is a visa application submitted at the embassy. You spent your money and went through all the trouble to get this far with the fiancée petition, so why not let it ride. Like I suggested before, don’t cancel anything until AFTER you have actually married. Why? Because having that K-1 petition active gives you another option. Who knows what might happen between now and your planned wedding? Who knows, you guys may just change your minds about getting married down there for one reason or another, and then you won’t have the K-1 option unless you start all over again. You will gain absolutely no advantage by canceling your petition at this point, but only essentially lock yourselves into the marriage option.

Some notes on the evidence thing. There is NO requirement for proof of meeting or evidence of relationship that will be submitted with a spousal I-130 or K-3 petition! Your marriage certificate establishes the relationship for the petition. She may be asked to submit evidence of a valid relationship later at her visa interview, but nothing will be required with the petition.

Ray

... in response to Forget it!, posted by Ray on May 14, 2004

Valuable insight.  Thanks Ray.  I will await until after we are married.  I go to see her in 2 weeks, just for a pre-visit.

thanks again.

... in response to Cancelling a fiancee visa application, posted by Troy on May 13, 2004

Troy,

How far along is you K-1?  

K-1's take long enough to get right without creating your own complications... I would think long and hard about not pursuing this avenue and sticking to your original plan.  I am not unsympathetic by any means!  Please don't take it that way.  I just know how difficult it is to get a K-1 without changing things midstream.  I would have to imagine, if you don't send up red flags to BCIS and complicate the whole matter, that you will be waiting quite a long time to receive the docs you need to submit your K-3.  That's my concern.

Me personally?  I would go have a HUGE party when you go back, but I wouldn't get legally married.  Maybe you could even exchange vows in front of her family without legally being married.  I would let the K-1 process run it's course.  If yours goes more like Nox's than mine you might be approved for your K-1 by the time you return this summer!

Just food for thought :)

Keep the Faith!

H

... in response to Call me crazy..., posted by Howard on May 14, 2004

Howard, I am a bit confused.  Are you saying that if I marry in June, and cancel the fiancee visa, it will take longer for me to receive the spousal visa info?

... in response to Re: Call me crazy..., posted by Troy on May 14, 2004

Troy,

Nope... I am saying that if you cancel the K-1 you waste the time it has been in process already.  Plus, you have to wait until June to submit your K-3.  I also am concerned that you might raise Red Flags and seem indecisive to those who make the decisions.

Good Luck ;)

H

... in response to Re: Call me crazy..., posted by Troy on May 14, 2004

Well, you will have to start all over with another petition.

... in response to Cancelling a fiancee visa application, posted by Troy on May 13, 2004

I have no confidence that USCIS could manage to do so. Better, I think, to wait until NVC has it and get it from them- but that's a guess.

... in response to You can request it, of course., posted by HaroldC on May 14, 2004

thanks, i'll try.