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i've never been married yet so this question doesn't directly apply to me , although i'm planning a trip to the phils early in 2003 and trying to judge a womans sincerity is crucial . the very nature of the letter writing process revolves around getting a feel for someones honesty etc. how forthright a person is may determine if you continue to write to her .

one huge reason for my interest in filipinas was because i'm catholic . a practicing catholic . that means that in most cases we can't marry a divorced person who doesn't have an anullment and continue to receive the sacraments . that basically means that we are out of the church for all practical purposes . i'm not trying to pose a theological question , and i know this might spark some derogatory remarks about the catholic religion , but it's actually my trying to understand the mind of the filipina .

while many filipinas say they are catholic , and even attend mass weekly , say the rosary , and remain virgins into their 30s and further , most if asked on a MOB website will say that they will accept a divorced man with or without kids . this is entirely inconsistent with the practice of their faith . i wonder if finding a foreign husband is that compelling or if those women were wavering in their beliefs anyway . i know the many non-catholics on the board might take a dim view of this but i will pose the question regardless . i'm soliciting an answer from someone who has a well rounded understanding of the situation . i hope i haven't offended anyone but that might  not be stimulating . God bless you all...tom

Raquel

I am into a relationship with an annulled guy (it's you H  :P) but I am not using him to go out into poverty. My conscience doesn't bother me at all. I do have a very good night sleep everynight.

Gerlie

Anyway, I spoke to God and he said I get a special dispensation cause it wasn't really my fault.He told me to just do the next right thing,help others and treat people like I would like to be treated.He told me I'm still a Catholic.He even sent me an angel named Joy.Life is good.

tito Matt
(recovering Catholic)

I know how you feel, my ex ran off with my horse and new pick-up. :o( Glad to hear that everything is going well. We actually had a pleasant experience at the AOS interview several weeks ago. Everyone was nice, even the Arab guy who thought I was his lawyer. :o)

Dave H.

Larry.

Malaygayang Pasko!!!(sp?)

tito Matt

It sounds like they lived up to their reputation during your visit. The only problem we had (This Time!) was with security at the entrance. They were so slow "TRYING" to read people's paperwork, that all of the personal items backed up going through the X-ray machine. Baskets and folders started falling off the end and dumping all over the floor. The person operating the machine didn't seem to care...probably a former Domino's employee (at least it wasn't my pizza). I was pissed and made a few choice comments, which probably went uninterpreted. Finally, one guy with an IQ above 40 went over and pushed the stop button. I think I recovered most of our stuff...and maybe a little more. LOL

Dave H.

Too bad... another "Queen of the Board" goes down in flames :o)

Jim

Off to the PI soon!  I'll drop by from Paradise!

BTW, liked those Walter Williams articles - some great lines:

"If left to their own devices, people's natural tendency is to truck and barter, and become capitalists."

"Once again, it's that same old tune: Governments are not only the enemy of personal liberty but economic prosperity, as well."

Jim

Welcome back! Everyone is coming out of retirement. I wonder if the Rhode Island Ripper will be next? LOL

I really enjoy Walter Williams myself. I met Kevin Nash (pro wrestler - 6'11") the other day when I was buying CDs...still no Rush. :o(

Dave H.

Home is where the Ripper plants his butt.  Let's hope he realizes that :-)))  One good gold digging incident is all we need to bring him back.  Then... like a band of rippers targeting on an injured gold digger struggling to get a green card, he'll pounce! :-)))

Jim

Jeff S.

Dave "The Ignorant Protestant" H.

Bragging, sophmoric, brainwashed people like you who speak without ever reading their scriptures give all Christians a bad name.  If you knew the pain and suffering I and many other people went through to stay married, me for 24 years to the most hateful, evil, selfish, lazy and filty person so that my children could have their father at home, you would cower in shame for what you said.  I prayed and fasted for years before getting a divorce and discussed all my decisions with my Bishop and the Stake President before filing.  My ex refused to get counseling while I went for years.  It wasn't until I had a heart attack that I decided I had to for healths sake.  It is much harder to get a divorce in my church that it is to get an annulment in yours.  Even after the divorce I continued to fast occasionally for guidance (which I know I get often) before marrying Honey to be sure that he did not want me to attempt a reconciliation.

Remember there is a time for all seasons under the sun before you make such blanket statements.

Bear and Honey

peaches

The Pope is the one who will BURN IN HELL

Humabdos

  Perhaps the Pope won't burn in hell...how about just being pan-fried in purgatory?

I still can't belive you would say that! OMG!
Being the Christin I am I'll forgive you and turn the other cheek!

Humabdos & Sallie

Who are you to judge your friends choice in men? Were they the wrong man because they are divorced? Or was it because your friends only wanted to get to the USA as you said. I find other filipinas to be quite judgemental of their filipina countrymates, when it comes to marrying a foreigner etc, "they are only in it for the money",

Your post reminds me of why i find most "christians" to be somewhat judgmental, if not very judgmental of others, including other churches, if they dont happen to share the same belief system as their church, be it Catholic, Jewish, Christian, etc, they are put down as misguided, "Oh , their interpretation of the bible is incorrect".

Depending on Who you ask, The Mormons, Babtists, Jews, Catholics, Jehova Witnesses, Scientologists, Hindus, Muslims, Bhuddhists, etc etc are all going to hell since they are not true believers. Its all so judgmental, hypocritical, and arrogant if you  ask me.

Your statement as to catholics and divorce, puts you on a pedestal as a "true catholic" while your other filipina friends and countrymen are catholics "in name only" right? I would bet that you do many things in your life that the catholic church considers a sin, but you are ok right, since you confessed your sins?

The other posts here are correct. The Catholic church should not be casting any stones at anyone, they are lucky they still have members in the USA given their recent protection of all their pedophile priests. Talk about Hypocrisy.

My main point is, He who is without sin , cast the first stone. Appears to me you must be a Saint, Febtember, and your arm must be getting sore by now.

Bear and Honey

If we're all going to hell according to these religions, then by golly who is ever going to heaven?

It's nice to see you back on P-L.  

Kuya Dabe H.

Thanks Carr!!

Of course , they , themselves are fortunate enough to have stumbled upon the only true Religion, their own of course. All of the other poor souls are misguided
sheep just waiting to be shown the true way to heaven.

This has to be the most ignorant and defamatory statement I have read on this board in a long time.  God forbid a Filipina find an American husband that will treat her with dignity, respect and honor.  God forbid that he love her with all of his being.  He is one of those people, the DIVORCED.  Perhaps we should rewrite The Scarlet Letter to include both the letters ‘A’ and ‘D’?
I suppose that I am one of the unclean.  I chose an ex-wife that had no idea what the phrase “forsaking all others” meant and divorced ME.  Should I pay for her sins with a forced solitude and loneliness the rest of MY life?  That will teach me.  Perhaps I’ll email my pen friends in the PI and let them know that I am going to save their eternal souls by ceasing all correspondence with them and canceling my plane ticket to visit them.  I’ll let you know how that goes over.
Perhaps you should be a bit more optimistic.  All divorced men are not possessed by demons and in need of a good exorcising.  We are men, period.  I am more than willing to submit my case to a Catholic Annulment Tribunal if that is what my future wife requests.  In fact, I would probably do it out of respect for her religion without her asking.  But to brand an entire population of Filipinas as gold diggers, green card sharks, whatever label you choose, is WRONG!  
Now for my generalization.  I have never come across a nicer, sweeter and gentler group of ladies than those I have corresponded with from the Philippines.  Ladies that, in my limited experience, want little more than to have a normal, happy married life and children.  Can they find that in the Philippines?  Obviously not all can. Should they be scorned and belittled for that? Absolutely not.  Are there bad seeds out there? Absolutely, on both sides of the Pacific.  
Life is hard enough without having to face a scourging at every indiscretion during it.  Didn’t Jesus free us from that burden when he gave his life for our sins?  I apologize if my posting offends you, but in my opinion our walk through life needs to include a balance of REALITY, SPIRITUALITY and a QUEST FOR KNOWLEDGE, not just a blind adherence to Church practices and laws that Church leadership itself cannot adhere to.  Would my future wife and I be damned for marrying without an annulment, while a pedophile Priest would be welcomed to the Kingdom of Heaven for the fact that he confessed his sins and was absolved by another Priest?  Something to think about.

People also forget that Jesus didn't found Christianity. Nor did he establish or belong to the Catholic or Protestant Churches as Steve has mentioned.

Dave H.

I find this genralization to be baseless, much more insulting to each and every filipina married to a previously divorced man.

I will be marrying a divorced man (with God's intercession with the government red tape, at the soonest possible time I hope) but NOT for the reasons you cited.

And the afterlife is definitely important to me that is why I try at all times, to always give due respect, dignity and think of the person/s in everything I do and say.

May you have a peaceful night.

It is nice to see you here again. My wife married a divorced man (me) and she certainly didn't do it for worldly reasons either. In fact, we believe that it was the hand of God that brought us together. I had a better chance of winning the lottery than meeting her. I'm very happy that I lost the lottery and won her heart instead. :o))) Best regards to you and Barry!

Dave H.

Money can buy you things but will never buy you 2 very important things....a peaceful sleep at night & real love.

I am sure all of us here who found our true love are far luckier and blessed.  :)

BTW, nice to see you here again May.

So, I searched back and found it.  A long time ago,  when I was just starting here, in fact,  I was asked by Ray if I had ever lived in the US.

Who would have ever thought that what I have always believed in was to be prophetic of things to come.  My answer to Ray then was no but IF I did,  I would want it to be a place where people see no color nor creed....where everyone thinks that no matter how bad a person is....deep inside there is always something good in him.

Not only is Barry divorced but he is also a Baptist.  I didn't have any qualifications when I fell in love with him just as I didn't expect to be judged by my background.

I hope your visa comes soon!

Your Friend, Humabdos

More than our visa,  I think you and Sallie deserves to have your visa processed.  Nine months is a looooooong time!!!  And the waiting is affecting YOU NOW!!!  *grin*  (as I read the other board, too.....*smile*)

My prayers will be that Sallie will be there with you before the 15th of December (this yr.).  I am told my words are somewhat prophetic.  *grin*

Anyway,  it's sooooooo nice of you to keep repeating your  "forgiveness of george"......*smile*   I hope that's what  F U George means or YOU will really be burning in h*ll inside your doghouse.  *grin*

I have to go along with most of what the others have said. I believe that most Catholic Filipinas would prefer not to marry a divorced man. However, they realize that "single" or widowed Western men they meet are far and few between. So why do they marry a divorced man who doesn't have an anullment? There may be some who are in it for the money. But many realize they have found a good man, fall in love and want to spend their life with him...even if it means a civil or Protestant marriage. Many do have feelings of guilt. They have hopes that an annulment will be possible in the future, so they may marry in their home Catholic Church, before family and friends.

Good Luck!

Dave H.

As for the availability of foreign men, there just aren’t that many single Catholic guys around that have never been married. For the Filipina ladies who are attracted to western men, they often have to make that decision of whether or not to go against their religion when they get married. However, I have found that the Catholic Church in the Philippines can be much more willing to bend the rules than it is over here. Depending on the jurisdiction, a Catholic woman can often marry a non-Catholic or a divorced man quite easily with the blessing of the local bishop. If the divorced man was not originally married in the Catholic Church, then they are likely to overlook some of the technicalities that you would run into over here in the States.

I was a divorced Catholic when I married in the church in the Philippines. Because my first marriage was a civil one, we were able to get all the necessary permissions quite easily in the Philippines. I sent some papers over in advance, and her family was able to get everything smoothed over with the local church well in advance of the wedding. We were able to complete the interviews with the priest and the pre-cana seminar in one afternoon a couple of days before the ceremony. The monsignor that married us understood the logistical difficulties involved in the marriage between a Filipna and a foreigner, so he cut all kinds of corners for us. If we had wanted to be married over here in my parish church, it would have taken a MINIMUM of six months and we would have had to follow all the rules to the letter. You only have 90 days on a fiancée visa, so a church wedding here would have been virtually impossible.

A lot of guys will pressure the Filipina to come over on a fiancée visa and marry here, which usually means a civil ceremony. The motivation on his part is usually the shorter waiting time for a visa, along with less hassles and the lower cost of a simple civil ceremony. It seems that many of the ladies will go along with the man’s wishes so as not to stir up any ill feelings. In my case, we talked over all the options and then I let her decide which kind of wedding that she wanted. I am of the school that believes that a bride should have it her way on her wedding day. She had always dreamed of a nice church wedding in her hometown with all of her family and friends in attendance, so we did it over there. It cost me a few thousand more and was a lot of hassles, but I really enjoyed the wedding and reception. Most important, my bride and her family were very happy that we did it right.

Of the ladies that come over here and have a civil wedding, many of them will go back a year or two later for a big church wedding in the Phils. Maybe they figure that living in sin for a year or so is worth it? :-) I have also known many Filipinas who married American men outside the church and they still practice their religion over here. I think for a lot of Filipinas, the church’s rules are just not as important as we might expect. The letter of the law just doesn’t seem to always be as important to the Philippine church in general. Some Filipinas will just ignore the rules and continue to receive the sacraments anyway. Is that wrong? I won’t judge them because I was non-practicing myself for 33 years. I know a lot of those ladies and they are good Christian people; they just aren’t hung up on all the rules. And having a non-Catholic husband is just not that big of a deal with many of them.

Ray

If we were to take a very strict and closed-mind stand on the things that you said,  we, catholic filipinas, would also be bound to look at a man's past and his past  "relations"  (and I don't mean the platonic kind).  IF that were so,  I wonder what would happen to "relations"  people have outside of marriage.  Would that count as well for us to totally not fall in love with someone who's been into such?

Keeping celibate and saving oneself until marriage doesn't necessarily dictate the same for our partner.  If that was possible, then it is truly a blessing.  (No flames, pls....grin)

Simply said,  our religion is one that instill (among many others) looking beyond a person's past.

Hope you finally find that elusive and perfect woman.  *smile*

Was just here lurking but still keeping up with what you guys were doing and saying  (errrrr....writing, i mean) *smile*

Just couldn't resist responding to tom and setting him straight.  *grin*

hmmmm...i didn't think you'd respond..lol ! well , i agree completely that we are supposed to be forgiving always . understanding even , but modernist progressives who don't stand with the magisterium want orthodox Catholics to look the other way at people ignoring the dogmas and canon law . i don't want to say who is happy about that !

sometimes we are very strict and closed minded where church teaching is concerned . again , you are 100% correct about forgiveness , but we have to resolve to try not to commit the sin again...lol ! the past of our partners should always be forgiven , usually it's a blessing not to know !

thanks for the good wishes . i hope i find that elusive woman too , don't think i'd be interested in anyone perfect though *smile*...tom

You see,  anyone you truly love will be perfect for you even her flaws and imperfections because of that love and therefore in your eyes she is perfect as she is.  

Got you!!!  *grin*

Anyway tpdtom, like the Walker, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian, so my opinions are more speculation than anything else. I'm sure you'll find Filipinas who follow their religions piously and to the letter, and those who know little about it and just perform the cerimonies and obey their priests. I have 50 Mexicans working for me, all of whom are practicing Catholics but know very little about what it says in the Bible. I'm not saying this to belittle Catholocism or any of its followers, just to point out that there exists an infinite range in how closely any spiritual practice is followed by its practicioners - and I'm sure Filipina Catholics are no different. As Don suggested, it's very probable many do it to increase their chances of success. These days some of the rules (birth control for instance) seem more negotiable than absolute.

It sounds like it's important for you to have a religiously compatable mate. I'm sure you can find the kind of devoted followers of religion you're looking for - those unable to accept a divorced mate, just as you'll find a full range of thinking from pious secular on this and just about every other topic amongst Filipinas.

- Jeff S.

Cherry Blossoms web site lists 17,481 women from the PI looking for love/marriage. The estimates are that less than 10% of women that sign up ever get married. The odds would be drastically lower if they limited themselves only to guys who had never been married.

As I'm sure you're aware the depth of religious conviction varies by individual. That's a good thing or we'd all be zealots ala Abu Sayef(sp?).

While there are those folks who truly believe that extensive writing to one lady is the best way to find your one and only, keep in mind that one guy here was receiving letters written by the the young ladies mother. There can be lots of layers of motivation on both sides.

Good luck.

Her priest in the Phils never turned a hair. We were not married in the church itself but in a family chapel. She was enjoined to ceaselessly try to convert me, but other than that there have been no problems. She attends mass and receives sacrament at our local church. I go with her about once a month. It means nothing to me and it makes her happy. Our stateside wedding was not Catholic so there was no problem there.

If the Church is going to stop marriages between divorced persons, or kicking people out of the church for doing so, they are going to lose a lot of their members in America. Aren't they anyway? Maybe that is the reason.

At any rate it is not a problem between us because we do not allow it to become a problem. I will not convert and I do not ask her to leave her Church. Every so often her conscious niggles at her and she makes a token attempt to convert me, I politely refuse, it is over for another six months or so.

If she doesn't care, and you don't care, and your local priest isn't making a fuss about it, why worry? Many Filipinas are legally married to their husbands who then abandon them. They cannot get a divorce or an annullment because they have children. So what are they to do? The Church in Rome puts them in an untenable position, so the local priests cut them some slack, probably with the approval of Rome. Better for Rome that they at least keep the women as members of the Church rather than lose them.

Don

i understand that non-Catholics , non-Christians probably more so, will be confused if not irritated at all this . it was asked in the spirit of orthodox observance which is deeply rooted in 2000 years of theology and is hard enough for a Catholic to be familiar with much less for me to be able to explain in the limited space here . i just wondered if someone who actually knew how practicing Catholic filipinas justified it if at all . The church has always forbidden marriage between divorced Christians without anullments , and the existence of children doesn't mean that the marriage was entered into with full Christian/Catholic intentions .

if the priest performing a marriage doesn't object , and all pre-marriage requirements are met , then i think it's safe to assume that all is in order . the church in rome hasn't changed it's position at all in hundreds of years . some priests follow rome to the letter , some don't , just as some lay people do and some don't . ultimately we all have to follow our own consciences .

don , i always enjoy your posts . when i posed this question i made a little bet with myself that you would be one of the first to respond . that's fine but i think you have a little axe togrind as evidenced by previous posts and positions . i have to remember not to be baited because when you come right down to it , so much of what we Christians believe is based on faith and strengthened by grace ....tom

Technically, as a divorced man, I suppose Vicky should not have married me. I do know that her virginity was miraculously returned to her in the eyes of the church. And that confuses me as well.

Sorry again. Did not mean to offend, and I have no axe to grind. Just confused.

Don

- Jeff S.

...it won't matter. It's hard to have good sex once you've blown off your "one-eyed camel jockey!" ;o)))

Dave H.  

It is all really very simple...anything is possible with the right amount of money. I do not wish to offend anyone, just what I have personally learned.

Dave H.