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Here I am trying to find the perfect wife, being a sucker for a pretty face. My brain says high tail it and run but loving a challenge and my desire for a foreign bride I feel compelled. I am in contact with three women from Ukraine all within the last thirty days. Fortunately for me, money is not an issue and not in any rush.

I would love any and all advice.....thank you in advance

... in response to Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

Curious,
In 2003 I was at the same place as you are now. I went over to Kiev, met several wonderful ladies, found a special one and we have been married 1 1/2 yrs and loving every minute of life. Here is my advice...Contact Jack Bragg at www.firstdream.com and put your self in his hands. You will not go wrong if you listen to him and follow his advice. His staff in Kiev were tops and his Kiev manager,Galina, told me I would marry a specific lady and I did.  Galina knows her stuff and will keep you out of trouble !!! Oh, I did not know a single word of Russian and had no trouble and I spent 3 wks in Kiev and had a wonderful time, good food and great flat to live in. Just have the ladies take the train and come to Kiev to spend a few days with you. Jack can handle it all.
Good Luck on the wonderous journey.

Larry
Atlanta

... in response to Re: Newbie 101...did it ...now married, posted by exlabman on Sep 19, 2005

In my case my 2 year relationship recently ended in divorce in a VERY ugly way (my wife arrived PREGNANT with some Ukes kid & tried to put the 'blame' on me!) but I'm moving on. I did use Jack & Galina & can tell you can't go wrong unless you avoid red flags etc like I did.

... in response to Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

Maybe you should do what I did and start studying the language first, then contact some women later.  I actually got into the whole MOB thing after I had been studying Spanish for a few months when I saw an ad in the paper about meeting Mexican women.  I was more into practicing Spanish and having pen-pals at first then anything else.   I also considered my trips (especially the first two) to be just vacations where I had a local friend waiting there to show me around (i.e. no expectations).

I suspect that many men who get into this shouldn't be doing it.  Perhaps even the majority of them...

... in response to Re: Newbie 101..., posted by Patrick on Sep 19, 2005

A lot of people that are currently looking for a MOB seem to have unrealisticly high expectations.  An 80 year old guy looking for an 20 something old hottie isn't terribly realistic unless you are a multimillionaire and the girl's name is Anna Nicole.  You still see it though, and more, too many times.

If you are socially inept here, what makes you think you'll be suave and sophisticated over there?  What?  You'll find someone over there that doesn't care about such things?  You can find that here too, if you look.  Chances are, finding someone over there that doesn't care might be a little easier at first, but she'll either be a scammer or else, once she has you, she'll make your life hell to change you.

Ultimately, we can't escape who and what we are.  We might buy ourselves an opportunity and some extra time with a foreign bride, but if we don't strive to be the person a woman would want to be with, we won't end up keeping her.

On the flip side, assuming we are open to change, a foreign wife is the ultimate opportunity.  While AW bashing is becoming trite, the environment hasn't changed much since I started looking overseas.  AW still tend to focus on superficialities.  They'd rather date a "bad boy" than a nice stable guy.  They date a guy because "he has a nice truck."  Others look for nothing more than a potentially open pocketbook.  For those of us looking for real relationships, it can be very frustrating.

I think many men are looking overseas for the right reasons, but we are blinded when looking at ourselves.  Let's face it, none of us are perfect.  We just like to think we are.  :-)  Unless we pop our own bubble and be realistic about who we are and our expectations, we are looking at serious problems in the future.  To quote the great bard, "To thine own self be true".

... in response to To some extent I agree, posted by John K on Sep 20, 2005

I agree with what you've written. But I'd like to add one think. Know what you're looking for and understand if that's what you really need! Some guys find exactly what they want and it goes badly because what they wanted isn't what works. Both sides have to look deeply at the relationship and figure out why they're with that person and if that's what they can live with. Ideally a person should know what their partner's reasons are too. But that's not always possible.

... in response to Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005


Here are my suggestions.

1).  Do a search on google.  Just type her name in quotes + "Ukraine" + "scam".  See if you get any hits.  Type in her name + "woman" + Ukraine -- this may provide some hits on other dating sites which her profile may be.

2).  Expand the headers in the email message.  Check to make sure that the time has a +03:00 after it to ensure it is from the Ukraine -- this is GMT +03:00. Look at the header and examine the IP address of where the email came from.  Make sure that the IP address is the same or nearly the same everytime.  Next copy the IP address and paste it into one of the following web sites:

  http://www.ripe.net/whois
  http://www.arin.net/whois/index.html

Use these sites to search on the IP address and find out who owns the internet company she is using.  Do a search in google on the company and investigate what they are all about.  From ripe.net, you will even know who the owner of the internet company is and his email address if you get ambitious.

3).  Ask for her home address (English and Russian version) and telephone number.  Call her on the phone and talk to her -- call her at night and call her by surprise early in the morning -- keep in mind there is a 7 hour difference between EST and Ukraine time.  Send her a post card with a specific picture on the card -- don't forget to write both the English and Russian version of the address on the post card.  It will take about a week to 10 days to get there.  Do not tell her that you sent it and then see if she responds to you via email or phone about the time she should get the post card.  If she responds, ask her to send you a post card.

4).  Ask her where she works -- name of the company.  Do an internet search on the company.  See if she will give her the work address and telephone number -- "tell her it is just in case .....I want to send you flowers" if she persists on asking why -- most flower delivery companies need contact numbers.  Verify the address and phone number as best you can using the internet.

5).  Ask for photos from her -- casual photos, not studio photos.  Heck, ask for photos of her family, dogs, cats, whatever.  These photos are a point of verification in future emails just to check consistency.

6).  Ask her questions that you asked several weeks earlier and see if you get the same answer.  If necessary, piss her off on purpose to see if she really cares and is foregiving and then say I am sorry.  PS - I never did this on purpose it came out as a consequence of translation.

7).  In major cities like Kiev, Simferporol, Kherson, Kharkov, etc there are live web cameras.  Have them go into the view of the web camera at a specific time and ask her to wave to you.

8).  Give web sites to them of your home town/city and see if they do searches.  These can be a focus of discussion to find out if you have things in common -- do not forget if you get serious you want to make sure that they are willing and familiar to live where you live.

9).  If you are going to meet her, meet her in a neutral city.  Make them travel to see you -- you are traveling to meet them.  Train travel is relatively inexpensive for them.  See if they will put forth the effort.

10).  DO NOT SEND MONEY TO THEM!!!!  PPPPLLLLEEEAAAASSSSEEE!!!

My opinion, you will go through alot up front from a financial and procedural standpoint.  I think they should go through some stuff just to see if they are really legit.  If they are not, there are plenty of them out there to chose from -- just look on www.4singles.ca (Canadian -- this site has user input for men as to whether ladies have attempted to scam them) and Free Russian Personals.

These are just some investigative thoughts.

More importantly, I think you should probe your own personal motives for doing this -- only you can be the judge of these.  There is always Yahoo Personal, cupid.com, etc to find desparate American women.  Then, probe their personal motives for the interest in you and America.  Beware of the standard (illogical) responses -- both you and her.

g

... in response to Re: Newbie 101..., posted by geh on Sep 19, 2005

One thing I would caution guys on is coming across negatively to any woman.  It's one thing to verify, and another to basically tell her you suspect her of being a fraud.  Suspect, but do so privately or you'll just turn the women off.

Keep in mind also that for every man who makes the trip to meet some women he's coresponding with, probably another 200 are just corresponding and when it comes right down to it, will never travel there to meet anyone.  After a woman's wasted six months writing and speaking on the phone to a man who never comes to visit, she get's cold feet about starting the process over again with yet another man who will never come to meet her.

... in response to Re: Newbie 101..., posted by geh on Sep 19, 2005

geh,
You did a great job of laying the whole thing out for the newbie.  The only point I would take exception to, would be #9, meeting in a neutral city.  I am of the opinion that the first meeting is better in her hometown.  You get to meet the parents, relatives and friends.  Plus there is no chance for her to use you for a free vacation.

I understand your point about her putting forth some effort and a small amount of money to meet you in a neutral city, but I would bare the financial burden of a woman's travel to meet me.
KenC

... in response to Great advice!, posted by KenC on Sep 19, 2005


I understand.  But, I still believe in meeting in a neutral city.  If on that trip of first meeting things go well, then take a train to her city -- and I agree -- see her flat, friends, relatives, parents (Oh God!), dogs, cats, work, etc.  This is important.  I would further suggest to stay at her place.  I suggest the meeting in a neutral city, but do not make it too much like a vacation.  Get an apartment -- cook there, sleep there, wash clothes there, etc.  But, I think it is important to see them on a neutral turf -- I referee soccer and there is a distinct home field advantage -- players act differently on a neutral field.  Plus, her travel to a neutral site shows a legit interest.

G

... in response to Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

Curious,  I found the learning curve steepened greatly by making a trip out there.  In retrospect I would have done that even sooner had I realized the importance.  I found writing to the girls to be not so great for me and especially some others I know.  Sometimes the agencies are writing the letters for the girls so beware of that.  
Mostly things are in your own hands. Hopefully you know your weaknesses and can keep your head on straight since there are a lot of gals that will go after your cash in sneaky little ways, if given the chance.
 
I must say I am of the opinion that when I find the one I like, I am willing to take the chance in short order. I believe that the vast majority of verbal and non-verbal cues and compatibility can be picked up in a matter of weeks and during the 3 month fiance visa.  After that the law of diminishing returns kicks in and you will find out more about your girl but at the expense of time.  Which in my case I have decided is not worth the trade off. Some problems just have to be worked out.IMHO    

I have a buddy who happens to be 50 on the nose.  He is very happy with his Ukrainian lady who is 35 and very, very attractive and mellow, basically a dream come true for him. She has been here for 3+ years and all is cohesive.  So it does happen but know yourself well and avoid the 18 year olds!
Good Luck! You are in for an adventure regardless!
Fathertime

... in response to Re: Newbie 101..., posted by fathertime on Sep 19, 2005

I do appreciate the insight and advice.. So Fathertime, what makes you want to go back to Columbia over FSU? How long have you been looking? Will you use an agency? Inquisitive in Indy

Thank you in advance!
Curious

... in response to Re: Re: Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 19, 2005

Hello again Curious,
Been looking at few months before I  started posting here. So about one and a half years.

I may still wind up going back to Ukraine.  I liked the Ukrainian girls a lot but I do find the Latinas more my style. I found them more genuine as a whole. The Colombians I met were simpler and would be more interested in the lifestyle I choose to live.  I saw a lot of blatent manipulation going on in Ukraine. I do speak some conversational spanish so communication is better for me.  I feel like I understand the culture a little more with Colombians and I do find them very attractive. I was lucky enough to have very attractive, interested girls on both continents, but I did not find the special girl on either trip. I am heading to Colombia in a week so I am mentally gearing up for a lot of excitment.      

I was on the dreaded "Tours" I found tours to work well for me in that it put me in a room with 100's of seemingly available girls.  It put me in a position where I could speak with many girls and try to see who was interested and who was just along for the ride.  I found plenty of both.  I definately would use an agency again, especially in Ukraine I do not know the language and having a group of fellas to watch your back is a good thing.  I found many of the girls to be very decent, pretty, and interested in finding an American man.  Perhaps the general population is better for some but trying to navigate and pick up on Ukrainian girls in coffee shops is just not realistic for me. Many of the agencies are dishonest it seems but that does not change the fact that they do put you in a room with many pretty girls that could be interested in you!

You are in for an adventure so enjoy it!
Fathertime

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Newbie 101..., posted by fathertime on Sep 19, 2005

Fathertime you wrote how horrible your experience was touring previously.  Why are you advocating them now?

... in response to Advise against tour, posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 19, 2005


"Fathertime you wrote how horrible your experience was touring previously. Why are you advocating them now?"

Bobby Orr,  No I did not write how horrible the tour was.  Check the archives on 4/13/05 nowhere do I say it was "Horrible".  There are aspects which are not good and some people got scammed but my experience was pretty good actually.  The tour company I used has some bad practices but the tour itself was a lot of fun and allowed me to meet some outstanding women.  I advocate tours, the socials were a place for some guys to meet many woman.  The ability to go through a companies database and pick out a few of the girls you would like to meet is also a worthwhile service although I understand a % of the girls are not really interested but that is par for the course.
Tours may not interest some but I do believe that they provide a valuable service.
Thank you
Fathertime

... in response to Re: Advise against tour, posted by fathertime on Sep 19, 2005

Fathertime, I know tours are fun.  However, do you really think you have the highest chance of meeting your future wife at a tour social in Russia?  I assume you answer yes.  In my experience I just have to disagree.  Have a good day.

... in response to Glad you had fun, but I just disagree, posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 19, 2005

Hello Mr Orr.  
In my case I do believe that I will meet my spouse from a tour, although that may happen in Colombia!  I suppose all relationships start out shallow and deepen as time goes on.  So it makes no difference to me if I meet my woman on a tour, in a restaurant, or through a mutual friend. The two people in the "Relationship" will determine how the relationship goes.  I guess I trust my ability to choose wisely.  
I respect your decision not to utilize a tour since you have been to Russia and Ukraine 15+ times you must be pretty familiar with how things work for you.  In my case I doubt I would be traveling that often.  
I am curious as to how you would recommend meeting a foreign spouse.  I am pretty sure it would not be right for me but I am curious nonetheless.
Thank you
Fathertime

... in response to Re: Glad you had fun, but I just disagre..., posted by fathertime on Sep 19, 2005

If you can live / work in a foreign country of your choice for an appreciable length of time you can meet women naturally ie. through daily life / through friends / through mutual interest activities.  

If you are an average guy without much time / without legitimate contacts in a foreign country I suggest you go to a region / city with alot of women that match the characteristics you are looking for ie. target rich environment.  Without much time ie. two weeks or less I suggest you work with small local contacts or agencies.

... in response to Best way to meet depends on your situati..., posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 20, 2005

Hello again sir, Thank you for your imput.  I definetely fall into the category of not much time.  I do not like to leave my children frequently or for long periods.  It seems an agency is what would work for me.
What do you mean by small local contacts?

Thank you
Fathertime

... in response to Re: Best way to meet depends on your sit..., posted by fathertime on Sep 20, 2005

I think a small local agency with or without USA presence in a city with alot of the types of women you are looking for is your best bet.  They should have alot of girls who are looking for a Western man and should have weeded out most of the scammers.  Does it make sense to have an agency run by Americans?  On one hand it increases costs, but on the other hand they theoretically should give better customer service, give you someone to talk to here in the USA prior to going over, give you someone you could relate to prior to help you refine your search once over there.  

Now, if you could find a wildcat girl who is a guide / translator with alot of girlfriends / great at meeting women and marketing her USA client that would work as well.  These people are out there if you search for them.  

A small local agency owned in the target rich city called Tver, owned and run by a Russian guy worked for me.  However, that particular agency unfortunately became affiliated with one of the big three tour agencies and has succombed to the power of greed.  They are now participating with tours, running photos of non-existent women and writing phony letters to men out there.

... in response to Matchmakers, translator / guides, Women ..., posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 20, 2005

Hello Sir,  
Those are interesting proposals you have set forth.  They will work for many of the fellas posting here. It seems that you advocate agencies but not the big ones if I am reading correctly.  
For me I would like to see a large assortment of gals and it is up to me to sort and screen the undesirables and tricksters.  I am not all that choosy although I know what sort of traits I want to see both physically and, personality and goalwise. I would act very quickly if I see the right woman who has congruent aspirations.  I have always acted quickly and relied on instinct.  I sometimes suffer the repercussions but all in all it works for me.  I may be in the minority in that thinking but it does not change my beliefs.  
Thank you for all your imput.
Fathertime

... in response to Advise against tour, posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 19, 2005

By the way, curious101 - I would avoid tours like the plague.  You are looking for a wife, aren't you?  Do you really think women looking for husbands would join a group of men they did not know in a bar for three hours if they really expected to find a future husband?  They may go to a tour social as a freak show or curiousity - but to find a husband - not initially.  The guys?  Most of them are willing to try anything and do have a good time.  Once they figure out they are really wasting their time, they are a step better for it, and alot poorer for the experience.

... in response to correction =  Advice against tour, posted by Bobby Orr on Sep 19, 2005

I didn't do one myself, but I can see that tours have uses.  If you want to practice your social skills and get an initial feel for R/U women, then a tour is an excellent starting point.  If you are looking for love and/or a relationship, I wouldn't want to trust a tour to find it.  Short term relationships, built on infatuation and inadequate depth of knowlege of the other person, is a recipe for disaster...

... in response to Newbie 101..., posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]

...stop being a sucker for a pretty face. There are more of them in MOB than probably what you're used to so beauty should no longer be a deciding factor (as if it ever should've been).

Second: Examine *why* you feel compelled to find a foregin bride. Be honest with yourself. Many people get into this for the wrong reasons and delude themselves right up until they get stomped on.

Third: Remain in no rush. Too many guys go "russian" into this thing. Write many women. Visit many women. None are special, no matter what you may think at some point. Don't fall in love with photos or letters and be prepared to walk away at any time.

Fourth: Believe not agency hype. If dealing with an agency get her address or phone number as soon as you can. If they refuse walk away. And believe every woman who writes you is a scammer until she proves otherwise. Search on her name, email address, etc.

Fifth: Never send money to a woman you haven't met. Period. Lol, since you have so much you might want to send some to this guy (speaking of delusional) or at least learn from him:

http://tinyurl.com/c3t48

He's not at all an isolated case and is the company you'll be keeping. It's nearly imposible to avoid being lumped in with the serious losers (and there are more than anyone wants to admit) but if that's not an issue for you then go for it. Course, if you're already one it's a moot point. Personally, I'd rather burn down a orphanage than be associated with any but a small minority of the men I've come across in this racket.

Others will chime in but those are the basics. Unless you're a desperado they should serve to keep you out of trouble. If I could sum it up I'd say the biggest danger is becoming your own worst enemy. Keep listening to your brain but be wary of it. Remember those "this is your brain on drugs" ads? For most that is also their brain on MOB. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Finally, if I were you I'd run away from this right here and now but if you're going to persist than I suggest you learn the language as best you can and meet "normal" FSU women. Bypass the cesspool that is MOB to begin with. The best girls to be had in the FSU don't advertise themselves like meat in a market. Look at it this way: Many MOB marriages are pure mutual explotation, little more than a two person pyramid scheme. Those overly  happy in them are almost always those who were the most messed up to begin with.

... in response to First off...., posted by LP on Sep 18, 2005

Lp,

I appreciate your candid honesty. Can I ask you why you recommend "runnung away from this right here and now?" I do like your idea of visiting Ukraine and meeting "regular" women there. I have also read about using a local agency also while over there, thus raising the odds. What are your thoughts on this?

... in response to First off...., posted by LP on Sep 18, 2005

I have to agree with 99% of what LP says here.  I would offer one variation.  When you find women to date (I am assuming you live in the U.S.) do you search on the internet?  Since finances don't seem to be a problem, learn the language and go over there for a month to begin with.

LP is right, the best FSU girls are to be met in person.  Don't do an Agency tour.  Go to Kyiv, rent a flat and get out there.  The girls are very easy to meet and they will be very warm and friendly to you if you can speak a little Russian and are not drunk off your arse.  That's kind of how it worked for me and I'm very happy as is she.

Good luck!

... in response to Re: First off...., posted by AllenB on Sep 18, 2005

Yes, I live in the US and my search has been through "A Foreign Affair" Highly recommended, even contacted the BBB in Phoenix which they are in good standing.

You recommend Kiev over all the other cities? I have been emailing girls from Sumy as well as Melitopol. Would you not also use a local agency there? And last, would you go alone or with someone who to is interested in meeting a FSU women?

Thanks for yout thoughts

... in response to trip to Ukraine, posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

Your odds at finding some people who speak English is far greater in Kyiv than elsewhere in Ukraine with the exception of Lvov.  If you really want to find an unspoiled girl then you must learn Russian and then I would go off the beaten path.  Consider Krivoy Rog, Mariupol, Nikopol, etc.  There are many beautiful girls in Sumy and Poltava and it is definitely worth going to but learn Russian first or you may find yourself trying to solve more problems than you bargained for.

... in response to Re: trip to Ukraine, posted by AllenB on Sep 19, 2005


I have found several women in Kharkov that speak fair English.  There is an International House in Kharkov that teaches many courses in English -- I know someone who is taking a course.  Kharkov is 5 hours from Kiev by Express Train ($25 round trip).

G

... in response to trip to Ukraine, posted by Curious on Sep 18, 2005

Kiev is more convenient to visit, has the largest population, and has more to see and do than other cities; however, it also means that the women who live there are more content to remain living where where they are. The place is full of westerners, many of them on the same mission, and the women know it. Local agencies generally work on the basis that you visit their offices and check out their catalogues (or website if applicable.) You make a selection and they try to contact the lady to set up an introduction for which a fee is payable; the initial meeting usually takes place at their offices; then it's up to you (and the lady) where you take it from there. Many are genuine but it is not 100% watertight, I have heard of cases where the girl was in league with the agency and would turn up simply to justify their fee (probably getting a cut.) Then there are the good-time girls who sign up for fun and recommend the most expensive restaurants and bars for the initial date, regardless of whether they are interested in you or not.

There is a lot to be said for visiting a different city; first of all they won't be so used to seeing westerners which creates curiosity and helps break the ice. Secondly they probably are more open to the idea of living elsewhere, as the smaller cities have little to offer. Thirdly, because (unlike Kiev) small cities are not on well-trodden dating trail, you are less likely to run into the "hardened" women who have been o the circuit for a while, have grown cynical about it all and have learned how to use it as a source of income and entertainment. But you will need to swot up on some key Russian phrases first; based on my experience in cafes, bars and restaurants, shops and other happy hunting grounds, the women in the provincial cities are less likely to speak English.