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You already know that you should be careful, but there is an illusion you want to squelch from the beginning: that these women are looking primarily for the "love of their life."  

I'm sorry gentlemen, I know that matchmaking agencies extol the traditional qualities, the affectionate and disinterested nature, and the good-heartedness of Eastern women, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.  They all want someone who has a good job, social status, and who makes enough money to spoil them with pretty clothes, brand name perfumes and make up, expensive shoes, spa treatments, exotic vacations, and, of course, a German car.  If you happen to be young, tall, and handsome, and to have something in common with them, it's a definite plus.  But they probably won't insist on the latter set as long as you satisfy the first (the very pretty ones might just because they get enough choice).  Love is important and it will tremendously improve the package.  However, you should realize that material comfort is their number one priority at this point.  Love could come later, once she has her citizenship and the freedom to choose.  It probably sounds awfully cynical, and I'm sure some of you had great experiences, but you shouldn't deceive yourself about the reason why they are so bent on getting a Western husband.

Secondly, I'd like to address the image that Eastern women have of the West.  Due to soap-operas (and we all know that everyone in soaps, is white, good-looking, and rich), a lot of people in developing countries think that life is easy in the West.  What they are not aware of is that the working week and year are much longer here; that we get less vacation; that we work extra hours just to keep our jobs; and that making ends meet, especially at the beginning, is not easy.  They are probably not aware of the high prices of rent and utilities, of car insurance, life insurance, medical insurance, gas, etc.  Many probably think that just because you have a lot more money than the locals, you can afford to take her on the shopping sprees and vacations you can afford in Russia (and I'm sure some of you can afford it).  From what I'm gathering, though, not everyone can maintain this lifestyle, and definitely, not everyone is willing to maintain it for a wife who sits at home.  Who can blame you?  So one of the things you want to make clear is that, even if she marries you, she will have to go to school and work right away, so that she can get a decent job in a few years and make her own money.  Don't spend outrageously on her from the beginning, because you're just fuelling false expectations and encouraging dependency.

Thirdly, a woman who is interested in you, will not ask you for money and will not accept your gifts.  I wouldn't.  I've gone out with a number of men before I met my boyfriend, and I've made a policy out of not allowing them to pick up my tab or to give me valuable things.  But maybe that's because I make enough money of my own to buy most of the things that I want (within reason).  If they ask you for money or gifts, it's a red flag.  Trust your instincts and treat them just like you'd treat a local woman.  Just because she's Russian, she shouldn't be a mooch.

... in response to first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 10, 2005

Great post. Inspiring and factual. Thought provoking. I look forward to your future posts. OldRed

... in response to first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 10, 2005

Welcome, and thanks for your posting.  My sentiments exactly....buyer beware.  My guess is that you are Polish.

Anyhow, Welcome.

... in response to Re: first post, posted by Globetrotter on Jun 10, 2005

Nope, Romanian.

... in response to Re: Re: first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 11, 2005

Ce mai faceti? Bucuresti, Brasov, Sinaia.. foarte bine!

I travelled a lot to your country, I love it there, especially skiing in Poiana Brasov and cruising the city in Bucuresti. I had good friends there, and many weary breakfasts in the Sydney Australian Cafe Bar in Piata Victorei, after falling out of the "Vox Maris" or "Why Not." Warm hearted people with a strong Latin streak, do you agree?

La Revedere!!

... in response to Buna Ziua!!!, posted by Streetwise on Jun 11, 2005

Wow, you know it better than I do!! I've been to Brasov a few times, but I haven't spent more than a couple of days at a time in Bucharest, on a number of occasions.  Is Vox Maris a disco? It's funny you mention it, there is also a cafe called Vox Maris in Bucharest, and I had a God-awful cappucino there on the most important morning of my life(Soros interview that got me the scholarship which got me out of there :p).

Latin streak, yah, but we seem to overdo it a bit - have you seen the ugly little men with hairy chests and open shirts flaunting big gold crosses and gelled-back hair???? Hello, you're not Gypsy Kings!!!! *Shudder*

... in response to Re: Buna Ziua!!!, posted by Felinessa on Jun 12, 2005

Yes, I think the cafe and disco are under the same ownership. When I first visited Romania in 1992, the original Vox Maris disco was underground, a short walk from the Intercontinental, but now it's located on one of the streets feeding into Piata Victoriei. It's quite a sideshow in there if you don't take it too seriously! I used to use the British pub in Dorobantii as my usual early-evening watering hole. Agree about the medallion men, but the ones that really got up my nose were the "beautiful yuppie" children of the privileged few. We used to drive up to Buftea in summer sometimes, by the lake (along with a quarter of the city population!) I think it used to belong to Ceaucescu. Apart from Brasov and Bucuresti (and Bran of course, to visit "Dracula's castle in Transylvania!) the only other city I visited was Ploiesti, but I didn't stay long; no disrespect but it's just a huge old oil refinery with half-empty apartment blocks for the workers. I hope the breakdown of the EU Constitution will not put a spanner in the works for Romania's accession hopes, and fulfilment of its true potential (natural resources and tourism) but it might be a while before it gets to feel the benefit. Anyway, I think it has a special something!!

Noroc!!! :)))

... in response to Re: Re: Buna Ziua!!!, posted by Streetwise on Jun 12, 2005

Any country with the guts to line up THEIR dictators and gun them down are A- OK!

... in response to first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 10, 2005

What you wrote is true and also not true. People from the FSU are just as different as people in the west. All of us seek a better life. That's nothing wrong in searching for a better economical life in the west. Of course we are aware of the fact that the reason why so many women from those countries are willing to marry a man in the western world, a man she would not accept in her homeland, is that she can get an economical better life in the west and also find a man she will love.

There are many of us who have found the dream lady, and and like OldRed wrote, some of these ladies do have extinct qualities. My experiences are that many of these women are hardworking and want to contribute to make a home.

Of couse, some have also bad experiences. However, we hear these failures told mainly by the man. It would have been very interesting to listen to the other side of the story.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: first post, posted by Haroshij on Jun 10, 2005

We hear 99% from the women's point of view, and it's lies. I don't want to hear anymore freakin' Russian or Ukrainian women lies!!! They are a complete waste of any man's time, money, attention and energy. I have dated women from many places of the world, and the ones from the FSU are bottom of the pit.

Everything they have to offer is illusory.

... in response to Re: first post, posted by Haroshij on Jun 10, 2005

I'm guessing that those of you who were successful chose a partner the same way you would have around here.  What struck me about some posts (although I think they were made by that jerk who got banned) was the idea that these women are interchangeable - "sorry you got burned, bud, but there will always be others." Okay, yah, that's what all of us tell our friends, but I think this particular situation requires an even more careful treatment.  A lot of people seem to be talking about prospective dates as if they were products.  Well, they are not; maybe some are deceptive and conniving, but they are still people.  I've spent a while on personals services (while living in the US and Canada) and I know that they tend to quantify people and to make them seem replaceable, but I think this approach is doomed from scratch.  You're not looking for a dinner date, but for a wife.  If you think she's replaceable, she's not the One.

Another impression I got is that a lot of men go about this process as if they were adopting a child.  But a mate is not a child: she's an adult with a value system, habits, customs, good or bad, and she needs to have her maturity and individuality recognized as much as any Western woman.   Again, Har, you probably recognized that in your wife and treated her as an equal.  I'm getting the impression that this is not always the case.  My cousin, for example, is 31 and talking to a 56-year old from Canada.  He went over to meet her and, from her end, everything sounded great: he bought her a computer, took her shopping, etc, etc.  But when he came back to Canada, I talked to both of them on a conference call, and he sounded like he was adopting either a 5-year old or a pet!!! So not cool.  I haven't talked to her since because I deeply disagree with what she's doing, but she's an adult, so I can't do anything about it.  I'm guessing that a lot of men do that, something they'd never do with a Western woman because they'd get smacked.

So far we agree.  The part I'm not so sure about is legitimizing the marriage as solution for financial situation.  See, my parents, despite being MDs, could have never paid for my school abroad; my friends are in the same situation.  And yet, we somehow made it here, even though it means being mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausted most of the time from classes and teaching gigs.  So if you want to get out, you can apply yourself and go to school, be an au pair, try to get a job, etc.  It's hard, I won't deny it.  There are times when you live on tuna and take your vitamins and hope that no one will know that you're half starving.  But at least I'll be able to say that I haven't sold myself for a visa.  Now if there is genuine love, I have no objections.  Love doesn't know geographical boundaries.  But if she "is willing to marry a man in the western world, a man she would not accept in her homeland," she's arguably a prostitute.

... in response to Re: Re: first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 11, 2005

But if she "is willing to marry a man in the western world, a man she would not accept in her homeland," she's arguably a prostitute.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you. You sounds like you have been in the west too long. There are in fact many good reasons to marry than love. People can decide of various reason to live together even if they don't love each other. Maybe they find it practical, maybe they are feeling lonesome and find pleasure in sharing their lives with somebody even if it is not love.

I remember an eastern man from India, I believe, who was confronted about arranged marriage in his homeland. He answered: "In the west you marry when the emotions are on the peak, and gradually they cool dowm. In my country we marry when the feelings are cool and gradually the emotions grow into passion."

I don't want to judge anyone for their reason to marry a man from a richer country.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: Re: first post, posted by Haroshij on Jun 11, 2005

See, Har, I would be more likely to agree with you if we were talking about women coming from cultures in which arranged marriages are common (south-asian or middle-eastern, in particular).  Russia, however, and Eastern Europe are still essentially European and Eurocentric, despite the artificial division (which is mostly one of economic means).  The lives of these women fascinate me (maybe because I tried my hand at playwrighting while I was acting, and I wasn't too bad, so I've always had an interest in characters).  I often read their personals and I loved the Antiscam website because I could read their letters and get glimpses of what they are like.  Sure, a lot of things are cheap and stereotypical, but some details are powerful and stirred up something I could call "nostalgia," although I know there is no proper word for what I felt - I felt so because I knew where they were coming from, and in my mind, they gained a Kunderesque aura (for insight in the Eastern European mind at its best, I recommand Milan Kundera's earlier works; the old man is watering things down nowadays).  Now what seemed extremely obvious in all this material was their idea of love: very fairy-tale-ish, very romantic, maybe a little sentimental and sugary for our tastes, but very bent on emphasizing the need for love in marriage.  This is what they ideally want, as arranged marriages are not part of Eastern European culture.

So this is why I think that women who marry for a better economic status commit some kind of betrayal - they betray their own idea of a perfect marriage.  Or, maybe, they give up girlish ideas of romance in exchange for material comfort.  Maybe I've lived in the West for too long, but if all I've learned is the essence of the American dream, then I don't feel too bad.  At the end of the day, I have a visa, a good situation that I've made for myself, and a man I love from the bottom of my heart.  I'm not saying everyone can or should do what I did, but it would be nice if more of them tried to work their way out of Russia instead of marrying their way out (like I was saying in my post to Red, maybe that's just the hardened feminist in me talking).

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 12, 2005

I understand you quite well. Anyway, don't you think it is possible to base a relationship on logical and rational reasons other than love, and then see deeper feelings emerge. Also I think it can be proved by statistic that bad economy and other major problems can kill even the strongest emotions. There must be some reason why so many couples lose the feelings for each other when their children get serious diseases. That is sad, but at least here in my country, it is a fact.

So, love needs some conditions to flourish. Bad economy, small flats, little time for each other and poor living conditions is not good for love. I don't say that it is not possible to keep a good relationship if you are poor, but it's more difficult. It's better to be rich and in love than poor and in love.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first post, posted by Haroshij on Jun 12, 2005

That I agree with.  I'm sure that extreme poverty takes its toll on any family.  Now I've never been to Russia, so I don't know what the standard of living is there, but I imagine the girls you talk to are middle-class.  I don't think any lives in abject poverty.  I know that life there seems unsophisticated and difficult, but that's because you are used to a number of amenities you've never lived without; they never had them, so it's probably not as dysmal from their end.  Like I said before, my parents are not rich.  But we have a comfortable house, all the food anyone would ever want, all the electronics I'd have here, washing machine, etc.  It's true that my parents are doctors and professors of medicine, but remember that doctors in Eastern Europe (the ones that don't take bribes) make peanuts (sometimes fewer peanuts that mineworkers).

Sorry, I'm getting long-winded.  I do agree with you to a great extent that poverty can stunt interpersonal relationships.  But as another red flag, I'd say that these women are probably not as poor by FSU standards as they are by North American standards.  In the success stories I've read, some of which are quite heart-warming, the women never seemed to play up the poverty card.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 12, 2005

Well, in fact I've said the same all the time in this thread. Using one's head in match-making can give just as good a result as using your heart. And I don't consider it prostitution to choose according to that.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 11, 2005

Felinessa, you probably have more insight into the MOB scene, as you have direct contact with a family member that is on the opposite side of the fence. Your perspective is unique in that you seem to identify all the mistakes we American men make in our approach to women of the FSU.

Some men do have a rather conceited approach to FSU women. Yes, we do approach it like we are adopting a child. In many ways we are. We are responsible for just about every aspect of their lives once they are here in America. We have to see to their adjustment and development, as well as their physical and emotional needs.
I know we are discussing grown women, but none the less there is little difference raising a child to become a well adjusted adult. The process just takes less time, or at least we hope so.

If the American male is patient and understanding he will benefit in the end. He will have grown with the process and have a better understanding of this person. Hopefully along the way the bond between them will become stronger.

We also live in a throw away society. You can observe that everywhere you look. That’s why the divorce rate is so high in the Western Hemisphere. But, we are discussing a human commodity and can not take this lightly. Efforts have to be made in order for this to be a successful union.
If the wrong attitude is adopted in the beginning we are doomed to continual failure. Something few of us intelligent and sensitive men want to encounter.
I was guilty of this attitude and have gone to great measures to overcome this attitude. We have to respect that there are human feelings involved here.

We are also a society dependent on instant gratification. If you have been here any period of time, I’m sure you are aware of this also. Patience is something that is not openly taught. An example of this is our thoroughfares; everyone has a “me first” mentality.

You have accomplished much since you came here and are to be commended, but don’t be so naïve as to group us all into one category. What is occurring between your cousin and her suitor sounds innocent enough. He’s taking what may be deemed a fatherly approach and trying to provide her with items she may be unable to provide for herself. I doubt that he is consciously trying to buy or impress her. If he is he’s a fool.
Maybe she is encouraging him in the wrong way or just as naïve as he is.

But don’t judge him harshly. He may be responding the only way Western men know how. We are led to believe that it’s not inappropriate to shower your loved one with gifts. If this were not the case, more engagement rings would be required to be returned if the engagement were ended.

You are still a very young Eastern European Woman and have much to learn about Western Men and need to be less critical. Try to understand why we do the things we do and why we react the way we do. We have a lot to offer any woman of the FSU and do so with an open heart. All we ask in return is love and respect. Not so different from FSU men, I would think.

There are those few Western Men that lack the maturity to understand that a relationship takes work and lots of it. They will probably be the victims of their own selfish stupidity and no amount of criticism will help them to see their mistakes unless they choose to accept them as THEIR mistakes.

Thank you, for providing a very stimulating topic. It is helping me to better understand myself and how Eastern European women observe us. Your observations have been invaluable to me and I look forward to more.
OldRed

... in response to Re: Re: Re: first post, posted by OldRed on Jun 11, 2005

You know, Red, I think that the need to protect and the desire to bestow one's generosity on someone less fortunate is not as much a Western male trait as a human one.  I think that what's really blocking my understanding sometimes is the fact that I've been pretty much on my own since I was 16.  Sure, my parents are there for me and helped me as much as they could, but when you live over 6,000 miles away, you have to learn to survive on your own.  I'm also a Type-A personality and identify the need for protection with weakness, which is normal considering the fact that I'm trying to make it in a professional circle which is still a boys' club (though things are changing).  So I know that I would be insulted if someone (who isn't my dad) tried to take care of me.  But I realize that I grew up with a very strong, educated, brilliant mother, and that I wasn't raised with "traditional" values.  In the end, women who are softer and have less of a take-charge attitude will probably welcome some pampering.  Okay, you convinced me, I'm probably too self-centred like most young people.

I guess, in my heart of hearts, I'm a little angry with people who mostly play up physical charms while the rest of us learn to love tuna :p

There, I think I've learned something too :)

... in response to first post, posted by Felinessa on Jun 10, 2005

Welcome a broad (sorry, aborad), it will be interesting to hear your perspective. Most of us, in our more lucid moments, know the score as you have described it. However, if you understand the male psyche, you will also understand that we all have moments when rationality goes out the window, and we usually end up paying for it one way or another.

There is a growing perception of women from the FSU as being unscrupulous, and a look at this board recently would certainly support that perception. One of my golden rules which seldom gets a mention here is this... check out the family. A large number of FSU women come from broken or unstable homes, which tips the odds towards the possibility of behaviour problems and personality defects. On the other hand, women who come from strong and stable family backgrounds, with both parents at home, and with brothers and sisters, tend to be well adjusted and balanced, and the healthy human interaction they have grown up with builds a character and outlook that does not lend itself to the kind of desperate, emotionally detached ruthlessness we often complain about. I have applied this principle and found it to be very sound. Try it guys, there are no guarantees but it generally holds true in the FSU just as it does in western society. Any comments?  

... in response to Welcome, posted by Streetwise on Jun 10, 2005

Sorry, rationality is away just now