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That is that a very large portion of the FSU women are listed with agencies or with some type of matchmaking internet site.

Thus, when you approach the woman on the street and view her as being different because you didn't contact her through an agency, you are just kidding yourself.

She is listed somewhere, just not with a site you have looked at.

Therefore, I conclude that, on average, the ladies you meet on the street are no different than the ladies you meet through a typical MOB method.

Of the 150, 21 of them were ladies I met while in the FSU through other means such as at businesses I was doing business with, at ballet, in apartment elevators, hallways, etc., and introductions from wives of businessmen.

Of these latter 21, every single one of them told me later that they were listed with some agency or on some internet site that I had not used.  Pretty compelling evidence for me.

I have only visited the primary large cities in FSU.  So I don't have any data on small town ladies.

Also, just for the record, I have never met any scammer, and all of these gals were over 35 years of age.

Albert, these are without doubt four of the most scam plagued sites you will find anywhere! Are their good girls on these sites? Yes, but these four sites have, and produce more scammers than any other four sites I can name. This is really un-believeable.

Almost as un-believable as the 21 big city, over 35 ladies you met on the streets, in the market and elevators ALL, being involved with agencies or listed on the I-net. Again, UN-BELIEVABLE!!

I thought Karl's estimate of 50 to 60 % of all single women in Ukraine  being involved with agencies or i-net listings was hysterical, but your 100% experience has to rank up their as a Rippley's believe it or not.

Karl

You can meet "girls on the street". I see nothing at all wrong with that (as long as they are not 'street girls'  and they are over there too.)
So why go all the way to Europe (expensive) JUST to meet  "girls on the street"?
I would guess that least five or six out of ten single Ukrainian women have listed (or considered listing with some sort of agency or have at least searched internet chat lines for relationships.  
Maybe dittos Russians.  

Maybe, just maybe, at the most 10% of all these women we see out walking about, the women we are talking about in this thread, are listed with agencies.

That's all, no more. This is why I can say, and not from an opinion but experience, from the women you meet away from agencies, ladies in the market, ladies standing in bus lines waiting to go home, ladies walking down Nevsky Prospekt, ladies who respond from newspaper ads, when these ladies express a real interest in a man their is a much higher percentage of these ladies feelings being true, being real, as compared overall to the ladies who are with agencies.

Or another way to put it might be you have fewer scammer women in real life as compared to scammer women with agencies.

I meet my wife walking though Kherson with a client out "hunting" When I ask her why she hadn't join our agency she had a simple response that she didn't have the time or a desire to join. She had no problem finding a boyfriend in Kherson. Today she highly recommends the agency to her friends.

Typical there are two types of ladies in agencies. The primary types are ladies who are looking for a good husband and have consider the option of finding one overseas. These ladies have taken the first step and are more acceptable to the life outside of Ukraine. The second minority groups are the ladies who fall under either professional dater are scammers.

A non-agency lady is going to be more difficult to date and convince to leave the country for marriage. But it isn't impossible to find one who will. An agency lady is going to be more acceptable to the ideal and be more likely to accept a marriage proposal.

My advice is and will always be to use an agency as a means of meeting ladies in a given city. If you have the extra time and money and wish to search outside of the agency for ladies. It can easily be done if you are willing to spend the exta time and effort to find a lady who is willing to leave the country in which she was born.

Hope this helps.
Kevin Hayes
www.khersongirls.com

I have notice that the men are getting more selective or using muiltiple trips now more then in the past during there searches.

The false web site that were created by my competitors has had an effect on the agency. But most people can read these false sites and see that they were created not by a client but by another agency.

I'm not reading many scam reports in kherson as I use to a few years back. Most of the scam reports are with the same agencies network that scam the men in every city.

I wish that I did have a MOB connection in Ukraine.  Unfortionally most of the local scam agencies have stronger connections then I will every have. This is why they are still open.

Thanks
Kevin Hayes

...So therefore, you conclude?!? What is the "therefore" based on? Putting a plastic bag over your head and seeing if you can operate a keyboard? Or are you pleading one of the "therefore, I am" defenses?

As Dan pointed out no one knows for sure but simple common sense implies that vast majority of FSU women aren"t involved with MOB and my own personal experience bears that out. I've been meeting non-MOB women for years and although many have pondered it not a single one ever got involved. Why? Because they were concerned what their family and friends would think and because they themselves feel it's shameful. I had several women tell me they feel it's a betrayal of their country and culture.

I suggest you start asking the non-MOB FSU people you meet about this endeavor. Not your girl or her family, try asking strangers you strike up a conversation with in bars, on trains, planes, ect, assuming your girl will even let you. Try it and see, you may well find your dream bride would rather you kept quiet.

You'll find MOB is looked upon with the same disdain by the general population of the FSU as it is by the general population of the US and other countries. My experience has been most "regular" people's perception in the FSU is these these girls fit into the same category the US population considers the men. In fact you'll soon feel it's best to disguise the reasons you're even visiting their country. How many times on this board have we heard from guys taking heat from their families and freinds for being involved in this? Are you so naive as to think it's any dfferent in the FSU? And I won't even tell you what many employees of the INS and State Department feel about it. If the ones I've talked to had their say the K1s would stop tomorrow.

Therefore, I conclude you're nuttier than squirrel sh**.

You have to understand I've never been in this racket for the same reasons as most. I've never been on a mission and in many ways I don't fit in well. I enjoy the travel and people of the FSU but marry one these girls? Maybe, but it'll take a lot more than a pretty face and nice legs for that to happen. If one comes along and strikes my fancy (and a few have) I would consider it but until then I'm simply enjoying the ride. In my opinion it's better than picking Olga #22 from a website or agency, writing a few letters, and then proposing to her after one or two visits. And I'm certainly not going to marry a woman I can't communicate one on one with to a deep level before I do so.

I'm not all that big a fan of marriage anyway. You have only one life and spending it on a single woman strikes me as a little nuts. If you want kids (I have two) I understand but otherwise my experience has taught me the very concept of a life long relationship is more illusion than reality. Many guys here have multiple divorces yet they can't wait to jump back in and feel importing a woman is some kind of magic bullet. Common sense implies that's a serious delusion. I'll probably marry again before I die but as long as I have years left to enjoy the variety life offers why rush it?  Besides, I'm a kept guy at home so I'm in no hurry. Lastly, wanting a wife and needing one are vastly different things and in my opinion therein lies the crux of MOB.

I'll try to be less critical. In fact I'll start by offering a public apology to Robert for being a jerk. Relax Robbert, I mean you no harm. It's just I've run into so many men in this who're screwed up it's made me a tad cynical. I accept you're only trying to find happiness in your life the best way you know how and I wish you luck. In spite of my yanking Jack's chain on occasion I think he is one of the very best in the biz if you can't handle things on your own. I'm just not a big fan of agencies is all but if I needed one I'd go with FD in a second.

So lighten up. Besides, if you hang out on Spencer's board you should already be immune. I haven't been there in a long time but that place has some of the most screwed up people I've ever seen. A shrink would have a field day over there. Take my advice and distance yourself from them before you dissolve into the same puddle of codependent goo.

Seems you share many common attributes with MOB guys. Lots of them have never been married. Lots have been married more times than they should. We won't go into the reasons why for either. Many also think A/W are "bad" when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. The same guys who blame domestic women for being shallow for wanting certain qualities in a mate, all the while going abroad for exactly the same reasons. In fact, thinking domestic women are bad or one brand of women is "better" than another is one of the hallmarks of a loser. It isn't about the women at all, it's about understanding it takes two to tango. And not to say you're one of those guys we both see on the street over there but I've yet to meet one who'll admit he is. Rationalization is a powerful thing and there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

You can write what you want, how you want, when you want and why you want. Same with what you do over there. It's your life and I wish you luck in "fixing" it. Who am I to say what you should do? But I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and frankly, you come across as needing to learn some things and  you're looking in the wrong place for those lessons. I hope you'll "do better than me" but from what I see you're a bit behind at this point, not the least of which is already having somone. One of the "bad" ones too, superior in everyway to FSU stock. In fact I sent the imported one back after I met her. I did all this before you probably even got started.

Pick up women in bars? Good Lord, are guys your age still doing that? I don't spend time picking up women in bars but otherwise they usually try to pick me up, at least domestically. It's an occupational hazard. I wouldn't be so quick to boast that as a American you're able to pick up bar flies in Ukraine, or anywhere else for that matter. Such women are best left to the lowest common denominator. I'd have thought a guy with your "experience" would already know that. Think you'll find one that meets your long eluded level of quality that way?

And if you really think you're going to give some woman the best years of her life you might want to adjust some other standards. And I'm not talking about the standards you have for her, although considering the beauty queens and the rest of the women you've been with (you know, the ones other guys would chop their pinkies off for) those standards might also require some tweaking. Six trips and seven months in 2004 alone? Lemme guess, you're an independently wealthy playboy who can have any A/W he wants but chooses instead to go abroad where he'll settle for nothing less than the finest and hopes to find it in a bar or agency. (Oh and btw, I still have all my digits...guess I was lucky not to have run into any of your rejects).

No, I don't know your circumstances but I can somewhat read between the lines because I've been in this a long time. And if you're using an agency you must need handholding because you haven't got what it takes to go it alone. I could see that on a first trip but six? Nor is such an approach likely to get you the "quality" you've been seeking for 30 years. It all implies something about you and your experinece with woman no matter what you preach as gospel.

No offense intended, really. Just my two kopecks mixed in with a little of my normal perspective. Have fun and be careful.

PS: Tell Rocky I said hi. If you ever get to know him on a deeper level you'll find he's not really the guy he appears to be. Not that he's better or worse, just different. He's good at what he does and I'm not talking about what he does as a guide, although he's certainly very good at that also.

You are a stitch.  I still see you're still here posting, educating, etc., no matter who doesn't want to be educated.

That's OK, as if they haven't figured it out yet already, the only difference between a girl here and over there is that there are more of them over there who are willing to come here for what they percieve as a better life, and simply, more of them, who are also younger....etc.

Sometimes it's better to throw in the towel and let them figure out that they're just pissing up a rope.

For me, I haven't thrown in the towel yet for those over there yet, I'm just a bit more cautious, knowing that they can be snakes at any age, plus I do just fine over here.

Regards............

PS:  Our diseased patient is alive and well after a long time under out
"magic box."

Good to hear from you. I was just talking about guys like you in a post below. Not by name of course, that would be vain. I haven't given up on them yet either but I'm getting pretty bored with all of it.

Glad to hear all is well. I hear the Feds are gonna stick it to Hizzoner in a big way (now *there* is an arrogant jerk). Lol, no wonder it's called
"Ill Annoys" by half the country. He certainly deserves it but it's a pity guys like you will have to pick up the tab.

Still alive and well huh? That's great, it sure beats the alternative. I still don't buy it though, it just doesn't add up. Try pointing it at the sky, if nothing bad happens you'll get my vote ;)

Still, you tout wisdom, but less that a few listen.  Even Jack who's in the biz touts most of your thoughts.  

I almost went into the oil business in Russia, but found that most of those I would be dealing with were in the...
shall we say "Black Hand" whereby I found that "I" could not afford to be in business with them.

Healthy is not the word for our patient...very much alive is more like it.  Hospitals are now using the same technology.  Difference is they use one needle with the same stuff, but can only treat one area as opposed to the whole deal like the "octupus syndrome" which can't be treated.

Glad you are well....

I read Roberts post and winced.  I know he is a good guy with his sh!t together from another forum.  I also knew that he didn't know you or your circumstances. Difficult to see two guys you respect heading for a train wreck when they really are on the same chapter but different page.  Any way no big deal.  Happy New Year to you my friend.
KenC

...That they don't get it may not be entirely their fault. I suspect some of the problem lies in the delivery ;)

I seriously doubt you'll ever get any grief from me. For one thing you're done, your time has come. Second, you've never been one to wax poetic about this thing or exhibit any goofiness at all. Nor are you here now trying to bolster your ego buy exhibiting your "catch" to the world.  Nah, your stabilty has long been established. You've always come across as a guy who quietly took his time, set his own course, and stuck to it in spite of the obstacles. All while keeping a low profile and following the path less traveled. I respect that.

I also continue to find it faintly amusing that, time and again, the people who think I'm OK are always the ones who're usually respected by others, even those who'd like to put my lights out. And they always seem to stand out as the most well adjusted in this endeavor. That alone tickles me no end.

Not that I'm surprised by any of it mind you, just amused ;)

on posting and learning russian

i post to respond to others and if i can possibly help others, that’s a bonus. i sometimes make light of something or poke fun at myself or others if it helps make the reading enjoyable. when i said i “hoped” ‘nema noge pongiski’ meant ‘speak a little english’ it was supposed to be a joke. i also want to say i know more than two words of russian. i know at least TWICE that!

when i read other peoples posts, i realize i do not know their circumstances. i do not know the six times some guy traveled to ukraine, it was to see (mostly) two english speaking ladies. maybe the guy has a hearing loss making it difficult not only to understand russian but his own language.  maybe the guy isn’t lucky enough to have the “language gene” some people seem to have, just like some people suffer from a math deficit. or spelling. or grammar.

criticizing others who have not had the time or burning desire necessary to learn russian because of the time and effort we make in going to russia is like me as a pilot criticizing those who spend so much time driving cars for not becoming pilots because then they can get places faster than others.

i think it’s great some people can learn other languages. some people can do it easier than others for many reasons.

i’m not going to criticize people for not becoming a pilot.

i do not care about my spelling, i do not need to list my accomplishments. (second best speller in my class). i sometimes have difficulty reading my own work. i recognize my style when it comes to posts and it can be difficult to read. all are spontaneous and free flowing. while some forms and patterns of spellings errors can be an indicator of intelligence, i think it is easy to know the difference.  i take issue with one opinions and thoughts before i do his spelling and grammar. i would also consider the circumstances. is he or she applying as a proofreader at a publishing house or is it a post on some bulletin board inhabited by trolls? only those without a legitimate argument change the argument by attacking such unimportant and very peripheral things such as spelling and grammar.

i am no longer going to respond to those who have nothing to offer other than criticizing those they do not know. i am not going to become involved in their insecurities. i do not have to attack others in order to feel good about myself or superior to others. i already know :-)

posted without the help of spell-check

Btw, I also wouldn't criticize anyone for not becoming a pilot. I wouldn't even recommend it in the first place. There are some really screwed up professional aviators out there and if I were you I'd be afraid everytime I went near an airliner (I know I am). The only people with bigger egos than pilots are bouncers (not the nightclub type). Say, you were a bouncer right?

It just worked out to be my third career because I bore easily and was too stupid to learn anything else. I won't go listing other accomplishments because it would show a lack of pride and confidence in myself. (By definition that's called self-esteem and people who have it usually do list accomplishments. Ask any shrink). Oh and depending on what one does for a living things like such spelling and grammar are far from unimportant and peripheral. Or it could simply be pride and confidence at work again. Btw, unlike "self-esteem" there is no hyphen in "spell check". In fact it's a verb, I think you should have used "spell checker" but I could be wrong. (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

Seriously, no harm intended. I'm jist yankin yer chain (bad speeling there eh)? It's just the way I am. I'm not a real prick, I only play one on the internet. Besides, you already possess the thick skin, lofy self-esteem, unflappable ego, and rock solid confidence of the typical MOB adventurer right? Plus you're also bright enough not to respond to people who criticize you ;)

If you care to parse it further, my guess would be that of the marriage-aged women in the FSU (say, 18 - 45), there is STILL less than 10 % of the total female population of that sub-group who are registered with an agency.

My point is (obviously), that MOST of the women you meet while being in-country and not pre-arranged, are going to be women that are not connected with an agency in any way.

But as I said - no-one knows for sure, so this is merely a matter of one opinion versus another.

FWIW

- Dan