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Where both man and woman work full-time and contribute money to household expenses (even if it is not equal), I can see where it isn't such a terrible idea for the man to do some meal cooking, dishwashing by hand or via loading dishwasher, vacuuming, etc.

But, I have found a number of FSU women who take all expense paid vacations with me and then ask me if I won't help with the cooking and dishes at the apartments I rent.  If I were not on vacation in a distant location, I would just tell any woman who said this to FO and send them on their way.  But having spent a large sum of money to get us to a location, I do some chores just because I don't want to cause a ruckus and ruin the vacation.  But from the minute they ask me, I mentally cross them off my list for a future long-term mate.  So I wimp out at the time for convenience.

I want to say to them that if I pay all the money then their contribution should be to do the chores.  But I know if I say this then they will say I just want a slave and housekeeper.

Somehow it just doesn't seem right that I am expected to contribute all of the money and do chores also; when she is contributing no money and also not doing all the chores.

I suspect that these women have never had any help at home and are thinking that they are going to get me trained properly right from the start.  Perhaps a smart move in general on their part, but just won't work with me.

So am I wrong here  . . . or what?

Seems the guys that have a wife that giving her point of view have clearly the poorest marriages.  Their really is a pecking order in a house hold.  There is this one guy with his family and clearly you can see how her penny-anney nit-picking at him is wearing him down.

This in reality is what our society has done to men.  And the brave new world approaching us with women as a overwhelming majority as our bosses or the formost authority will just aid to our decline in our civilization.

I mean, at one time we thought the computer was going to replace us - which just may still happen, but it was very clear.  Atleast to me, who was trying to wear the pant in that guy family.

On the closure of the show the guy said he had a new self awareness that his marriage is probably over and he was moving on.  He said the experience of living in the way he was on the 1800's setting was a real awakening for him.  As work is down right a challenge.

I think you can go to pbs.com and find out what time it comes on.

--
With all that said - I don't think the guy had any problems taking out the trash or doing a few chores.

If one didn’t talk about this topic prior to marriage and she is already in US, then tough luck. In such situation the societal norms come into play.  Nobody like unpleasant surprises. For instance, I never had in mind 7 years ago that one day she may working in US and that was not discussed before. Now I let her keep all the money she earns because it was never discussed that she has to financially contribute to the household. Telling her now she has to chip-in money for the household is an unpleasant surprise; so I let her keep it all. It doesn’t matter, fortunately in my case. After getting the job, she has been now taking me to restaurants and buying gifts for me often - just reversal of what used to be before!

My policy was to tell the truth up front to the lady I meet - prenuptial agreements, household chores, financial stuff, relationships with ex-wife, other kids, all my deficiencies and problems. And if the lady likes me despite all those, then I have nothing to fear later-on. If not move on. In my case I married the first girl I met in Ukraine.

however, i think some help is fair.  I've observed my future in-laws and the father always helps the wife with the dishes and he helps with some cooking.  I've been told a Ukrainian woman is not expected to peel potatoes.  

FWIW, IMHO

Gman

You are free to do what you want.  But a woman may interpret your reluctance to help (irregardless of who is contributing financially) as a negative.
If you don't think it would be useful to observe how the woman works in the kitchen and find no benefit and no knowledge to be gained from sharing chores with her then fine.
My fiancee has observed her father helps her mother some and thinks a good husband helps.  She doesn't take into account who is contributing financially in her assesment.

I explained that I am successful at what I do but have very little time at home and want a girl who wants to have a family.  I told her I am old fashioned in my views when it comes to family and I want a girl who can be happy having children, taking care of the house and of course taking care of me :)

Anna and I get along famously because all expectations were laid on the table from the very start.  After our first meeting, whenever I visited her, she would take the train into Kiev to meet me but the train would arrive at 6:00am while my plane would not arrive in Borispol until 1:00 so I always arranged for a limo to pick her up at the train station and take her to our room at the Premier Palace.  I also made sure that Anya, at Premier Palace, had a nice rose bouquet in our room (we always have the same room).

Anna knows that I love her very much and will do anything for her and her family and in return she insists that she takes care of Alex, me and the household.

I am the luckiest man on the face of the earth.

...Not to be hard on you Albert but come on...

You do it all. You place her so high on a pedestal you need a telescope to see her. You need to worship her like the FSU Goddess she is. You constantly slave and fuss over her and feel immensely grateful for any attention she gives you. You want her to think you'd crawl 50 miles through the snow just to sniff the skid marks from the laundry truck that took her panties away. I know a guy in TX who can give you some tips...

Come on, you know better than to ask this kind of question. Geesh...

Doesn't it occur to you these girls are doing the same as you, watching how you operate during these temporary living arraingments? That they might use these observations to formulate how life with you might be like after marriage? After all, they can get an FSU guy if they wanted to be treated as a servant in return for someone bringing home the bacon. In short, you might find yourself to be the one getting cut loose if you persist with these veiwpoints.

I don't worship women but I at least treat them as equals. Whats wrong with making a woman happy by helping her even if it isn't "even steven"? She'll love you all the more for it (especially an FSU woman) and thats what you want right? And what would it cost to hire someone to feed you and care for your home? Lots...and you won't get the good stuff with a maid like the love, attention, and knowledge she's standing beside you through thick and thin. And who's doing these chores now, with you being alone? See my point? Since you're keeping track, you'll be way ahead of the game...even if you have to foot the "bill" a little.

Unless she really abuses the relation, treat your partner as an equal or slightly better at all times. When you commit to live with a woman it's for sharing all things in life, even the dirty work. Doing things for or helping your squeeze should never be viewed as a chore, it's your pleasure. Consider it your responsibility to power the realtionship. After all, you the man ain'tcha?

I'll let you in on no big secret: If you want to win a women's heart you first need to learn how she views "typical" men...and elevate yourself above that in behavior. Your present attitude doesn't. I mean come on, you're trying to beat out FSU and other MOB guys...how hard is that? I find it isn't difficult to be a cut above and frankly, it's guy's like you that make it a cake walk. Details count, a lot. I don't mean the usual flowers and gifts, I'm talking about meaningful details done everyday. Trust me, not keeping "score" is a good start...

And be more tolerant at first, even guys with gun racks in their pickups who guzzle Bud on the sofa while watching football usually put their best foot forward during the initial stages of a relationship. Seems to me you're taking a step backward with your approach. I could ramble on for some time about my feelings on this but I won't.

Take my advice and change your thinking. Or at least lay it all out to the women you meet. Even if you find one who'll initially tolerate your approach she probably won't for very long. If you persist on sticking with this Neanderthal attitude you might find yourself waking up one day with something other than your nose cut off...

I agree with not keeping score - Excellent post.

And from surface value it is easy to come to the conclusion that Albert is possibly looking for a servant but, words are misleading and this may not be the case at all. This whole topic goes from pure white advancing to more darkening shades of gray finally arriving at pure black.

So, we can have total white where the woman wants to do everything she can for her man to the point of imposing slavery upon herself to total black where the woman is looking for a guy to use plain and simple for what ever reason and for sure there are many possible ones. Also the same applies to the male in this grading scale. The more opposite the two are, the more co-dependant they are if the relationship works. However, although I would like a well balanced relationship where one never ever thinks about keeping score because each is giving more than the other requires - if I had a problem to deal with, I would rather it be with a woman who was a little too white on the scale of give and take as compared to being to dark.

On the black side of the scale, we have heard tales from a few guys of FSU women who only take and virtually do nothing to contribute in any way - total takers with an agenda.

We also hear of women who are on the white side of the scale who are not yet able to help the household out financially (if such is the ultimate plan by both parities) who appreciate greatly all that their man is doing to make their life good. We hear about how some of these women find great satisfaction in doing everything they can to make the home a place of refuge for their man.  

Albert IMO is either
a) looking for a house slave or

b) is simply using a screening technique to not find himself with a woman who is too lopsided to the scale approaching a not acceptable level of darkness on the scale that leads to either black or white.

Screening people to be in your life is not a fair and just process but one does not have time to give everyone a ton of time to see if their is interest. You have to place filters that will reasonably screen out the ones you do not want as well as accept that such screening techniques will also erroneously remove excellent women.

Me, I believe in screens especially when there a lot of bugs that are looking for a healthy vein to plunge their proboscis into.

Like I said, I'm sure Albert is more complex a guy than he appears and only he knows best what he's looking for and what he'll settle for.

Still, I dunno. My gut feeling is he's in for a rough ride.

PS: Glad to read you're all set up. 80 huh? That research work is making you an old man ;)

You are mentioning how the man can be getting some good benefits along with possible love.  But turn it around and see from the woman's side.

Here we have gals who work hard for little pay (even those in the professions) and just barely survive money wise from paycheck to paycheck; spend a great deal of time walking to bus, tram, etc. in the worst of conditions, riding crowded transit systems, reversing at end of workday, going to market each evening, lugging home the food, preparing meals, washing out clothes in the bathtub, finally getting to bed late and then up the next morning to start all over again.

Now a man comes along who offers to relieve them of 90% of their problems.  They eagerly take all he offers . . .  and then say, "Oh I would like you to share with me the other 10% also."

I understand that we should not add all of this up in various columns, but I am pretty sure that these women will think that I and all other guys who would agree to such a situation are pure putzes.

Second, I do not do any household chores at the present.  I have various live in girlfriend situations here in USA, I have a weekly cleaning woman, send my laundry out, I eat out a lot, etc.

Third, I do not display any Neanderthal attitudes with the women.  As I clearly stated earlier, I play along with all of their requests for help and I do it with a smile.  As far as they know, I am happy as a lark.  The goal is always to have a good time and help the ladies have a good time.  They are always pretty shocked when I later tell them that we have come to an end.

I did make the mistake of telling the first FSU woman the reasoning.  That's when I got hit with the entire 'hiring a slave bit.'  So now I just tell them we have conflicts with personality, long-term goals or whatever.

I have found plenty of American women who are more than willing to do 100% of all household duties in exchange for a free ride financially.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find one that is tall and slender.

I'm caught between a rock and an Albert on this one because much of what you say is true. Especially the putz part, there's one born every minute. (Me thinks several a minute in MOB). However, to feel most FSU women (or any women) will think guys who go the extra mile are putzes is far from correct.

I'm as logical as they come but I don't ignore what happens when love enters into the equation, it would be illogical to do so. It seems you're looking at this in the wrong way. When you do find one you love you *will* crawl 50 miles through the snow, ect. Your concerns will vanish and they are minor to begin with. And it's best to forget the "white knight" thing as it's not a good way to look at this. You may be "saving" them from the life they have but thats not all they expect.

All I'm saying is it may be better to approach this in a softer manner, compomise is key to success in any realtionship. Otherwise you'll end up going through a lot of women. You might lose a gem for reasons that will seem trival (and in my opinion are) later on. It's imperative to avoid keeping score of anything in a relationship, it's very bad mojo. And although you may keep this attitude from them now it will come out when you marry one and likely cause lots of friction.

As for them being shocked: No wonder, you're deceiving them. Why would you do that? I thought the entire point of living with them for a short period was to check out their true colors? Or did you simply reject them out of hand over this one "bad" attribute? Hmmm...

You owe them a truthful explanation if only to learn how they feel, it's good data. It's also a glimpse into how that particular woman resolves conflict, something *really* important to know. And be gentle, one of the main reasons I deal only with non-MOB FSU women now is because I hurt so many MOB types and became uncomfortable doing so. Yeah, I know it's life and they'll survive but I don't like being the source of a good woman's pain. Have a heart, it's much easier for you to move on because their hopes are based on acheiving much more than your's. After all, you already live much of the life they're looking for.

You can't look at this without factoring in the emotional aspects and apparently that hasn't happened to you yet. I now that sounds strange coming from me but it plays an important part in the equation. As Karl asked: Are you looking for a committed mate or only someone to share your life with? No matter what, at minimum you should lay all this out with the woman you choose. Then again, lets hope there is some love involved by that point and you won't much care.

Still, you asked for opinions and mine remains your attitude about this, along with the apparent importance you place on appearance (tall and slender), doesn't bode well for an easy time of it. It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks but that's what's required in this game. Women are women the world over but the fact remains one is dealing with a different set of "rules" in this endeavor.

With these women you have the Master Rules and the FSU Rules. Knowing what's the same and what's different is the trick, but your philosophy strikes me as a basic violation across both sets. In the end all you can do is to observe the results and make a determination. In any endeavor one will usually get the same results (good or bad) doing something the same way. Keep that in mind and change how you operate if required, you need to be flexible at every step.

Albert strikes me as a gentleman and a thinking man so I'm not gonna be tough on him. Besides, this medium is poor at conveying who people are and I'm sure he's much more complex than he appears. (Lord knows I'm misunderstood here ;)

Portola Valley eh? Very nice. I love to ride over that way when I can get there. I have some great memories of summer days spent in that area on my bike. Skyline, La Honda, Alpine Road, (Russian Ridge ;), it's a motorcyclist's dream. Lunch at Alice's, ect. I'd like to be there now if it wasn't so cold and I wasn't home doing (ironically) chores while the squeeze is Xmass shopping.

I recently took two visiting Russian girls through that  area. You know Heritage Grove on Alpine? You should have seen their faces at the size of those trees. A beautiful place, it was a weekday and very quiet. Not to mention their reaction at seeing the PCH south of Pescadero and around HMB for the first time. Btw, some folks I know have photographed quite a bit of the coast, did a hell of a job too. See here:

http://www1.californiacoastline.org  (Don't get me started on Barbara Streisand.)

Lol, other than Deadwood City the Pennisula is a beautiful place...

And then you read something written by some random person on the internet about an obscure restaurant like Alice's... and you realize it isn't so big after all...that you've tread in the same place.

Don't you love the cowhide seats there?  It reminds me of a different era... when men were men and sheep were nervous...  :)

Random? I've been accused of many things but random is a new one on me. ;)

Skyline has really become a hangout for bikers. The Centurion Club members boast doing 100MPH between Alice's and 92. I had on old Yamaha 650 I used to take up there; now I just fantasize about taking my fiancee for a ride on a Harley down Hwy 1.

Albert does sound like a thinking guy so he doesn't need the "big guns." ;-) One observation is that things are different when travelling: time spent doing chores together means more time spent doing fun things later. Plus, just be up front on what he wants, both traveling and living at home. You are dead-on right about not keeping score in a relationship: it is the root of bitterness and is guaranteed to kill. Ask and give forgiveness often and move on.

EPA sure has changed a lot, gotta give them credit. Went from the homicide captial of the US to a pretty decent place in only a few years. Lol, now that you've got an IKEA over there it's become real swank. Yes, the west side has always been nicer, maybe a little of PA proper rubs off on it.

I hear ya, the run between Alice's and 92 kills a few every year. Years ago came upon a guy who had gone into a Winnebago near the 92 end, it wasn't pretty. I remember he'd dymo labeled "Do Not Remove Helmet If Unconcious" across his chin guard. Yikes...

I prefer getting frisky down thru La Honda (more curves) but jeez, not like some of the guys I see on those rice rockets. I've learned to keep an eye in the mirrors or they'll sneak up and blast by so quickly I nearly have a coronary. And it's neat to see the fog (but cold) rolling in thru the trees at the 92 end during the summer.

I could tell you a story about coming upon some sheep late one night up north on the PCH, scattered them and one bolted the wrong way...a dive all the way to the beach. Coulda been me, riding route 1 at night is crazy but I was young and foolish. You know, you can rent the Hog for a one day run on the PCH, lots of places to do it.

Good observation about doing chores together, never thought of it like that but it's true. Even the chores can be fun if done right, I try to inject some playfullness and good natured ribbing into them. Sometimes this even results in an unscheduled break, if ya get my drift.