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I have been involved in the pursuit of women from the FSU for almost 4 years. I have been:
1. Scammed by one woman in Ukraine, and lied to by many.
2. Mugged in St.Petersburg in broad day light near Nevsky Prospect by 5 or 6 gypsy's.
3. Ripped off by one agency owner, who freguently posts on this board, whose name rhymes with Smack!
4. Spent enough money to buy an airplane.
5. Seen a lot of interesting and depressing sights.
6. I have had women testify to their "love" for me without meeting them or even talking to them on the phone.
7. I have had plenty of sex, with many pretty women, but not without a high price(my airplane). Sex wasn't my goal, but...
8. And still, I am not married, could be soon, but I am reluctant, as some on this board, we have a lot to lose!

I don't post on this board or read it, because there is very little useful information, and a lot of opinions. And here is mine, mainly, for the newbys, "it's an addiction", shopping the web for desperate women, that will promise to love you forever, or two years, whatever comes first!!!!!
Flame away. I don't care, I won't read it.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

NT

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

with everyone by all of the incredible responses below.

However, with jrm's final comments he reads somewhat like a troll although who knows.

"I don't post on this board or read it, because there is very little useful information, and a lot of opinions. And here is mine, mainly, for the newbys, "it's an addiction", shopping the web for desperate women, that will promise to love you forever, or two years, whatever comes first!!!!!
Flame away. I don't care, I won't read it."

However, with his comment about not reading or posting here because there is very little useful information --- well perhaps if he had read here and asked some questions etc. maybe he would not have had such a negative experience. Or, maybe he just manifests negative regardless. How you approach this certainly alters the odds of what type of end result you are more likely to get.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

I went to Kiev almost three years ago with a European Connections Tour.  At the end of the evening we were basically encouraged to take ladies out to dinner.  I remember one-lady ordering frog legs because she had never had frog legs before and the dinner came out to $100.  But, some of the guys who later when on to Moscow told me stories of spending more than $200 for a dinner.  We were basically being used to provide entertainment.  The Russian women were also too cold for my liking.  The best woman there was my young interpreter who was married and after we became friends told me that she didn't think any of the women at these events were sincere.  One of my friends who went on to Russia proposed to a lady, gave $3000 to his interpreter to give to her to cover her expenses, and never heard from either of them again.  The EC tour said, well that happens.  I decided to switch to Latin Women and have never looked back.  I now have a loving Colombiana I am bringing over who just asks for love and not money.  And, I don't need a Visa, and frankly Colombia has all the comforts of America (more advanced than Russia or Ukraine) and it is just easier and more comfortable to get around, and, of course, warmer.  I don't regret my Russian experience.  I went to places I would never have gone otherwise.  And I did take a year of Russian in a college, which is a fascinating language and I made friends with my teacher, a sweet lady who was a former professor in the Soviet Union.  But, it's not a place I choose to look for love.

   

... in response to Re: Try Latin , posted by valuedcustomer on Jul 3, 2003

I stand to be corrected, but following the "try Latin" post, I had a quick flick through a few sites (it's been a while since I checked out that area) and my initial conclusions are:

Attractive looks, age over 22, and height over 5'5" seem to feature occasionally... but not often all in the same women.

The sites specialising in Latinos seem less sophisticated, the photos and supporting information seems generally more sketchy.

The places they come from are often crime-ridden areas of extreme poverty, I would be most careful about where I went (yes, I think human life is cheaper in some of those places than it is anywhere in Russia or Eastern Europe).

On the plus side, I didn't see any "professional" photos (you know, the kind of photos that bear not the slightest  resemblance to the woman who turns up at the restaurant!)    

Also, I have had the fortune to visit Brazil (Rio and Recife) and Colombia (Bogota); I did not feel at all relaxed in Bogota, and I would challenge the claim that South America offers anything remotely approaching US (or UK)living standards. Maybe for 0.05% of the population, possibly..

Brazil was better, and I was impressed by some of the women I saw walking around (keeping fit seems to be a national obsession!) I was also impressed by their apparent warmth, they seemed more approachable and responsive than their RW counterparts; but that might not be a good thing in the longer term. A Brazilian business associate advised me to forget Rio and concentrate on the touristic areas of Natal, Recife etc (to the North) as all the menfolk have migrated to the big cities to find work, leaving many women "on the shelf" with nothing to do except lie on the beach...

But before I forget that this is the wrong board to be discussing Latinos, let me conclude by saying that having looked at both sides of the coin, my inclinations remain unquestionably towards Eastern Europe.

... in response to Latin... first impressions of...., posted by Streetwise on Jul 6, 2003

To each his own Streetwise, but I would have to agree with Valuedcustomer about LatinAs vs. RW.  Having been to Russia two summers in a row and now South America two years in a row, these warm, affectionate women appeal to me much more than their Russian sisters.  There are very beautiful, sincere (and insincere) women on both continents but the ladies from the South stole my heart my first trip there.

As for SA approaching our standards you must be talking salaries because if it's culture and history, SA is way ahead of us by a few hundred years.  Sure there are places to watch out due to the high crime rate but you can't possibly be serious about Russia being safer than SA.  You have to be careful wherever you go and that includes most of the major cities here in the US.

You hit the nail on the head in accurately describing Latinas as having more "warmth, more approachable and responsive than RW".  Case closed as far as I'm concerned, but happy hunting in the FSU.  

Anyone who has gone East or considering going East should give some thought to giving our neighbors to the South a try.

Poka

... in response to Re: Try Latin , posted by valuedcustomer on Jul 3, 2003

I hear ya...........

... in response to Re: Try Latin , posted by valuedcustomer on Jul 3, 2003

The Internet is helping more and more men to become aware of the great number of women who attend these large socials who are social scammers, working girls, not looking for a foreign man or party girls.

It is nice being able to report such deception by these companies on the Planet Love Russian discussion board without the poster being called all types of names and having the post eventually deleted.

Could you imagine being able to report this on this discussion board if this agency were paying big bucks to advertise here?

Some boards you cannot discuss or expose scam activites of certain agencies if they are sponsors of that Russian discussion board.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

I think there's a lot of sour grapes in this post, as KenC and others have correctly pointed out.  The only thing I can agree with this guy on is  getting mugged in St. Petersburg which happenned to me too.  Don't get off the beaten path and don't be out after dark.  I've stayed out on the streets of Kiev, Moscow, Simferopol, Yalta and Sevastopol and never had a problem, but St. Petersburg seems to be a muggers haven.

... in response to Re: " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by Charles on Jul 3, 2003

Most of my trips to Ukraine have been to Zhitomir.  People tried to pick my pocket once, and one time this last trip, Marina and I had a couple of guys watching us pretty closely in the bar.  When we left, I pointedly stared at them on our way out, letting them know that I made them as well.  Our walk home was uneventful.

Our last trip, Marina even saw a daylight abduction by the mafia.  Her mother and I missed it, but it was still sobering to hear about it.  Zhitomir has gotten more dangerous from previous years, which leads me to believe that other areas are likely to be more problematic as well.  Of course, we were over there in the winter this time, so it could be a seasonal thing.  I'm not sure.

Just remember to treat it like a trip to NYC or downtown LA or Detroit.  Don't make a target of yourself and don't go anywhere off the beaten path.  Incidently, Marina and I drove through downtown LA once and my wife decided immediately that this was not a place she wanted to be.  Apparently, that survival instinct works well, despite where you are.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

My wife once told me that Americans are the only people that assume that only the best will happen to them and are disappointed when it doesn't.  The rest of the world assumes the worst and are pleasantly surprised when something better happens.  jrm is a perfect example of that thought process.
1. Scammed and lied to- so what?  Women manipulating men with their sexuality is as old as time itself.  There is no national boundary on this practice.  Foolish men will always be open to be scammed.

2.Mugged- So Russia aint Disneyworld!  There are plenty of American cities that you could do worse in.  Being from Detroit, I learned to avoid such situations.  Maybe jrm should never leave Kansas again.

3.Jack- ripped off?  I highly doubt that.  More likely jrm is an unrealistic man with too high expectations.  Better to blame Jack than take personal responsibility.

4.Expense-Stay in Kansas and ride the bus.

5.Interesting and depressing sites-welcome to the real world.

6.In "love" without meeting- Enter any chat room for the same experience (refer to my #1)

7.Lots of sex at high cost- jrm sounds like a man bedding women above him, cash is the equalizer, others can accomplish(?) the same with charm and personality.

8.Not married, too much to lose- Stay in Kansas and continue to live with Mom.

In closing, there will always be foolish men that women will take advantage of, no matter what country they do or do not visit.
KenC

... in response to Poor baby, posted by KenC on Jul 3, 2003

sd

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

Although the details are different my bottom line is like yours and I have now been to Ukraine twice and Russia eight times, though five of the eight trips to Russia were wife hunting / vacation trips.  I am alot more upbeat about it than you.  I have had a great time in spite of the difficulties.  Luckily, I have never been robbed, but have been willingly scammed by a Ukrainian girl from Kharkov and seen and had to deal with brutally miserable behavior by people over there - but have sometimes seen behavior like that here as well.  Over all I am a better person for my experience - and will attempt the long shot of a FSU wife again.  Just remember, the odds of marriage occurring for the average guy with a good head on his shoulders is slim - otherwise you probably are rushing it.

... in response to About like yours, posted by Bobby Orr on Jul 3, 2003

Could you emblelish on this for me?

"Just remember, the odds of marriage occurring for the average guy with a good head on his shoulders is slim - otherwise you probably are rushing it."

... in response to Re: About like yours, posted by thesearch on Jul 3, 2003

I think the statement stands on its own.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

Been about 3 years for me.

1. Scammed....well, not really, as I got my moneys worth.  
  Lied to...to be expected.
2. Never mugged.  Been in a few fights.  They lost.  Keep
  them eyeballs in the back of your head like an Isreali.
3. Smack...never used him but seems helpful and would use
  him if needed.
4. Buy your plane before you leave.  Some nice ones can be
  had cheaper than a new Corvette.
5. Depressing sights...try Calcutta, hell on earth.  To know
  what "standard of living" actually means, is good.
6. Testify to their love...that's to be expected.
7. Sex...if it was fun, don't complain.
8. Not married yet?  When it's right and you feel good about
  the situation, maybe then you will be.

I think it takes a really special blend of several skills,
and your head and thought process on straight to succeed.  Also, being realistic doesn't hurt either.  I know of only one other person who I would suggest this process to.

I've had a brutal month.  Lost my Dad, my best friend, and my dog inside of 30 days.  But, we're keeping the "shiny side up."

... in response to Re: " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by Globetrotter on Jul 3, 2003

Globe,
Interesting that there are so many "whiney" posts here regarding their bad luck, yet someone like you, with true losses, just mentions them in passing.  Shows the high caliber of man you are.  My heart goes out to you.
KenC

... in response to Re: " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by Globetrotter on Jul 3, 2003

Too bad you are fighting over there.  It sure can not help relations - and can get you in a whole lot of trouble.  You have been very lucky.

... in response to Everyone loses in a fight, posted by Bobby Orr on Jul 3, 2003

I have never picked a fight in my life and have been more cautious than most...also been more places than most.  If a guy pulls a 9 mil on you and is 15 ft away, you throw him your wallet (the one with the 20 and 10 singles, and the expired credit cards).  If he pulls a knife, and looks like he won't let you go even after he has your goods, you make sure he can't follow. Never if you've only been insulted or pushed or cursed at.  For that, you apologize, beg his pardon, and back out. Only, and only as a last resort do you break things, but these are bad, bad guys. Understand?

Foreign relations?  What are you talking about?  Scum is scum.  Probably saved him from doing it to someone else.

... in response to Re: Everyone loses in a fight, posted by Globetrotter on Jul 3, 2003

What techniques do you use in hand-to-hand?  Are you using martial arts or do you use more hand-to-hand combat techniques, like SCARS?  

Just curious...

... in response to Just out of curiousity..., posted by John K on Jul 3, 2003

A head but to the nose, grab the weapon hand, turn palm up, and bend/break the elbow over your shoulder.  A spin kick to the knee cap is tae kwon do.  Close in, uppercuts wokk wonderfully.

... in response to Re: Just out of curiousity..., posted by Globetrotter on Jul 3, 2003

asd

... in response to Re: Everyone loses in a fight, posted by Globetrotter on Jul 3, 2003

Agree with everything you say.  I am now just sorry you had to raise your blood pressure when you were on vacation.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

1) Exactly the same. Minor scam by one, lied to by many. I was a newbie at the time.

2) Never had a problem. The people are exceedingly friendly and if you use common sense you'll be ok. Mugged? Yer breakin my heart, I was once robbed in the Detroit airport while standing at a urinal taking a whiz...now *that* was embarressing.

3) Although I never dealt with agencies per say, Smack has helped me when I asked and never asked anything of me in return. He's a little rough around the edges at times but I believe him to be honest and have the best interests of people at heart.

4) I own two airplanes, bought before my FSU adventures began. Forget buying, just operating one of them makes going to the FSU for four years look like a bargain.

5) The same...whats your point?

6) The same...and it was a good thing. It helped to seperate the wheat from the chaff. As long as you ain't desperate it's not a problem.

7) Same thing....see the other poster's comment. It's the price of doing business. Frankly, I liked that part.

8) Also reluctant and have no need right now. One can have it all without that ball and chain. My experience is being married is mostly more trouble than it's worth. Amazingly, many don't learn this lesson and can't wait to jump back in. But I might do it when the time and person are right. (It'll take a hell of a lot more than the typical MOB scenerio to make it happen though.)

I agree with you that this isn't cheap, isn't head healthy, and many who do it are social misfits while a few are not. I agree this board can be pretty useless at times other than for entertainment. I also agree MOB is not worth the hassles and advise those thinking about it to not get involved.

I also think there are some fine women to be found there. I know, I've met some pure gold. But to find them was not worth all the BS I had to go through. In short, it's a poor method of finding a mate and I think most men eventually come to their senses and quit MOB as it exists in it's current form. At least those who are running on all clyinders. I think newbies are too naive to know better at first or are simply too desperate to see it clearly.

However, I don't regret a minute of it. I still go back on occasion to enjoy the country and people and if I end up stumbling upon the right one I would go for it. I stay away from women involved in MOB and only deal with those who aren't, those I meet when and where I chose. In short, normal interaction when I'm there and see what develops. It's a whole lot more relaxing and solves all the problems you mentioned when the trips are not geared to meeting women who are looking for who knows what.

... in response to Same here except...., posted by LP on Jul 3, 2003

L.P., you have had some good posts, the "flash light" and the recent post about the "visa change" to Kiev.

I don't know how many times I have been to Europe,too numerous to count. My passport is in the mail, getting another visa,business. Going back, not to look for a wife, but to have a "product" made in Ukraine, instead of China.
Because I love the country and the people. And I want to do a little to help.

My first three trips to Ukraine I took a room full of clothes to orphanages in Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk. Because I love children, and my heart hurt, seeing the many "disposable" children in Ukraine.

I have traveled to more countries than most. Been attached three times, but only mugged once, in St. Pete.

And to Ken c., I live in Missouri, not Kansas! Mom, lives in Texas. My post was not an attach, but a warning! Your personal attach, was what I expected from you, having read your posts for years. It is typical, and what are you doing spending so much time on this board and not with the "Mrs"c?

Women are women, wherever you find them! The women of the FSU, don't know that they can have love, stabiltiy and  a man in their generation , until they come here.

Best of Luck to Us All in Our Pursuit of Love and Happiness

... in response to Well, I lied, I read some of the posts, posted by jrm on Jul 4, 2003

jrm, sounds like you are a nice chap --- orphans etc.

Somehow I sensed that something was not right with your post - just want sure what it was

jrm: "I don't post on this board or read it, because there is very little useful information, and a lot of opinions."

jrm: "And to Ken c., I live in Missouri, not Kansas! Mom, lives in Texas. My post was not an attach, but a warning! Your personal attach, was what I expected from you, having read your posts for years."

Above you state that you do not read anything on this board yet in the last quote you have been reading KenC's posts for years.

Why hide the truth? Just puzzles me coming from a guy who has such a big heart for orphans. Anyway, I wish the best of luck to you in finding whatever it is you are looking for.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

I have been involved in this process for 2.5 years and made 5 trips to the FSU.

1. I have never been scammed.

2.  I have never been a victim of a crime.  I once had a drunk pass out on the floor outside of my compartment on the train though.  (easily cured by a few swift kicks from the the 5 foot tall provodnitsa)

3.  My experience with agencies is pretty minimal.  But, the ones I have dealt with have been honest and helpful, even when their name rhymes with smack.

4.  No, this is not cheap, but I typically find that once I am there I spend less money per day then I would at home.  I also tend to go to the smaller cities and towns where lodging cost are minimal.

5.  I agree, but I must say that even the "depressing" sites have added to my life experience and appreciation of what I have been given in life.  These things have also given me the opportunity to help others.

6 and 7.  The women I have gone to meet have all been sincere.  Yes, all of them.  I have made many friends, some of whom are very pretty women.  Of course, some of the woman I wrote to were less than sincere, but I think that for the most part this is easily recognized.  If something would be to good to be true here, chances are it will be the same anywhere

8.  No, I am not married yet either.  When and if I meet the right woman I will get married regardless of where she lives.

All of my trips have been great.  I have experienced so many things that I could never have experienced if I had stayed at home.  I have gone mountain climbing in the Caucuses, back country skiing in the Altais, taught English in a Ukrainian school, spent several days on a Russian fishing boat in the Black Sea, promoted world peace, and above all met many wonderful people who I consider my friends (both male and female).  I would not trade any of these experiences for anything.

Now, will anyone else's experiences be the same as mine? of course not.  But they will be experiences.  Have I been lucky? Maybe. But I tend to think if you are informed and use a little common sense you should be able to avoid most problems.

So yes use some caution, be informed but above all just don't let caution leave you sitting at home on your Butt.

... in response to A rebuttal, posted by Philb on Jul 3, 2003

You have been blessed or you have made your blessings -- I would guess the latter. Either you have a better attitude than our disgruntled poster, you are wiser or lucky. I do not think that it is luck. I get the feeling that you will find what you are looking for. Good luck to you.

... in response to A rebuttal, posted by Philb on Jul 3, 2003

The lead post isn't.

... in response to You're certainly believable..., posted by tfcrew on Jul 3, 2003

I didn't post for a while and I had to change my "name".

... in response to Durn, we "usta" be buddies! Wh..., posted by jrm on Jul 4, 2003

..fresh off the grill to the menu. Yep, pretty stringy.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

"jrm" promises not to read this reply but for those of you who may be beginning the process, the "newbys" jrm refers to, please allow me to share my experience.

1.  Scams.  For the most part my correspondence has been responded to by lovely, intelligent sincere ladies who I was and am still delighted to have met. Yes some of my corresponence has been answered by "scammers."  But if you use common sense and follow the rules that have been listed on this forum many times you be able to defend yourself against them.  Their tactics are pretty much the same as the manipulative unscrupulous,  "gold digging" AW you can meet in any singles bar on Friday nites anywhere in America, or in church for that matter.  Rule 1 do not send money.

2. Safety.  I have visited Moscow 4 times, walked the streets at night, admittedly never in the wee hours of the morning but after midnight many times.  Visited parks, rode the Metro and on Victory Day danced in Red Square.  I have never been troubled other than by some peddlars trying to sell me post cards, medals, soviet currency and rolex rip offs.  Again I use the same common sense that I developed from walking the streets of NY and London.  Rule no. 1 Be careful out there and here at home as well.

3. Rip off.  No comment, because no personal experience.  I am only guessing who jrm may mean but I have heard a whole lot more good than anything bad about "rhymes with Smack."

4 Expense.  Agree It ain't going to be cheap.  But pardon the cliche, You get what you pay for.  Think of the $'s you've blown on AW's trying to find the right one.  If you do not find that the women of the FSU offer something different and special quit now.  But, do not think you are going to save a lot of money instead, unless you intend celibacy.
Rules: Don't try to impress by throwing money around.  Be honest with the lady about your financial situation. Seek the advice of the members of this forum.  They are for the most part good guys and want to help.  There is a wealth of information in the archives.

5.  Depressing sites.  Yeah, me to, in Bed Sty, Detroit, South Boston, rural Maine, LA, Baltimore and every other N. American city, State and Province.  Yeah even in TX.
I have also seen tremendous improvement in Moscow.  I realize that Moscow is a relative boom town and that there is still terrible poverty in the rest of the FSU but slowly and surely it is getting better.  I have met a lot of fantastic capable Russian people and I bet they will be able to turn it around.  The Russian economy is improving and they are enjoying a budget surplus.  I know, currently it is based on high oil and gas prices and that may not last.
Glad jrm got to see some interesting sites.  I saw lots and I have just begun to scratch the surface.  Can't wait to see St. Pete., Lake Baikal, Sochi, etc.

6. "Love." Gosh, what did you expect?  Most of the ladies involved would like to establish a relationship and find a good home for their children.  That is why they are in the ads. or why they respond to yours.   They also have weak English language skills.  Far better English than the Russian skills, or any other foreign language skills for that matter, of 90% of AM though. It must be tough to express in a forign language, that "I like you so far and I would like to continue to correspond and hopefully meet you and maybe we will grow to love one another and than want to spend the rest of our lives together."  Maybe she will just say "I love you."  Be aware that there is a language and cultural gap.  Be sensitive, tactful and try to be a little understanding.  But also be careful.  Yeah she may be setting you up for the kill.

7.  Sex.  Was this supposed to be a complaint.  Grow up, one way or another men always pay for it.  It is the biological price we pay for spreading our genes.  Could be worse, remember the praying mantis.

8.  Marriage.  I couldn't agree more.  It is one heck of a commitment but are you happy alone?  If so stop, because marriage with anybody, AW, RW or anybody else sure can be complicated.

I hope you "newbys" will ignore jrm's warning.  For if you are truly interested in a relationship with the most charming ladies of the FSU I am convinced that this forum is the absolute best source of info.  Of course you must sort thru some BS to get it but what else is new.

... in response to For the "newbys", posted by wilmc on Jul 2, 2003

Ok, now I'm with it .. new be... "newby"..or new by some (imaginary?)   pretext of expertice.
My wife has been here for nearly 3 years and we're still new at this.

It seems to me though, that the lead poster is really a never-was or a won't-ever-be.

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

and it's not even the weekend.

... in response to nice troll, posted by vagn on Jul 2, 2003

He seems to indicate he's still pursuing Russian/Ukrainian ladies, despite the difficulties he's faced.  I think he just wants to inject a little more harsh reality into the process.  Most people aren't going to have a "fairytale" marriage the first time out.  For many men, it will take several visits and a lot of perseverence to find the lady of their dreams.

Of course, there are a lucky few of us who manage to find "the one" right off the bat.  I am one of them.  But we do a disservice to imply that every guy will be that lucky.  Finding that perfect someone is a time consuming process, that also depends a lot on luck.  Luck favored Marina and I immensely.  Were it not for a couple of strokes of twisted luck (or divine intervention), we never would have been introduced to each other.  I probably would still be searching along with the rest of you.

It was more my impression that he's trying to warn guys that this search isn't likely to be easy, nor quick.  If it is, then the person ought to be careful of who they are connecting with, as there is a distinct possibility that they are dealing with a scammer.  He's not really telling guys not to do it; he's still doing it himself.  He's just trying to slow down the young bulls who are blinded by, uh, passion.

... in response to Not necessarily, posted by John K on Jul 2, 2003

nt

... in response to " Proceed with Caution!!!!, posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2003

Continent.

I have several friends who have oriental wifes from PI.
(these women are very business oriented and are very savy, it would probably be in my best interest to find one as well).   But I can only eat so much rice, noodles and eggs.

... in response to Re: maybe you should try a different , posted by wsbill on Jul 2, 2003

planet?