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Just curious. When we were in Kiev there were a tone of gorgeous Cosmoplitan model looking ladies walking around with no bras. You can add my Diana to that list. Is that common?

... in response to Was it me or do Ukrainians despise bras?..., posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2003

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... in response to Great Trip Report!)  n/t, posted by Scaught on Jun 24, 2003

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... in response to Was it me or do Ukrainians despise bras?..., posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2003

Frank, are you right about that! Never have I seen so many fine ladies walking around a city notta wearing a bra. And I sure wasn't complaining!

Different guys will see different things though. When there last month again I marveled at the so many beautiful ladies that Kiev has. Only Moscow and St. Petersburg could compare. Being from Dallas I am used to seeing one tenth the number of beautiful ladies here as I do in Kiev.

... in response to Was it me or do Ukrainians despise bras?..., posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2003

Not when I was there.

We must have been in different parts of the city or something.

Of course, the women I saw when I was there (for the most part) I wouldn't wanted to have see sans bra, anyway...

I dunno... I was there in May, in Late July, and again in September.

I never saw the babe parade that everyone keeps talking about... I saw some in St. Petersburg (in March, no less) but not in Kiev.

... in response to Re: Was it me or do Ukrainians despise b..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2003

Just kidding!! LOL!! Honestly it was pretty rough for me. I was with my beautiful lady & all these other gorgeous girls were walking by. Of course she was looking at me like a hawk!! lol!!! If I was not with her I would have been snapping pics for my cousins to enjoy, not too mention me. Pretty hard when you can seen through a thin top & see the nipples underneath pretty clearly. Hard to make eye contact.

... in response to Were your eyes open or were you looking ..., posted by Frank O on Jun 25, 2003

...thats long been established. He needs to walk Kreshatik on a weekend when they shut the traffic off. I just came back from 4 weeks in Ukraine, (very little of which had to do with MOB) and I couldn't believe the sights. (And I'm pretty jaded when it comes to girl watching.)

I'd write a trip report but I don't think anyone would be interested since it didn't involve getting some girl to marry me in a week. Spent some time in the countryside as well as in the Chornobyl exclusion zone. I was with a film crew for some of the time and we had lots of cultural experiences, if ya get my drift.

A good time was had by all. We were careful to avoid MOB girls and only dealt with those who wanted to play shorterm. There is no shortage of them, thats for sure. Kiev and Odessa were especially pleasant, as was Kherson. I've always been partial to Odessa though and like to hang out there.

... in response to He's always been blind...., posted by LP on Jun 27, 2003

What makes you prefer Odessa?  How does Odessa compare to some of the smaller places like Kerson? Any basis for making a comparison with Dnepropetrovsk?

I understand your trip was not mob oriented, but you do have experience with cities some of us don't.  (I've been to Kiev and Crimea.)

... in response to Re: Why are you partial to Odessa?, posted by Richard on Jun 28, 2003

..several reasons. Odessa (Odesa in Ukraine) is a tourist town so people there are on vacation and ready to play. (Maybe not so good for wife looking because they may be in reality from who knows where.) Of course, you'll also "blend in" better for the same reason: you're a tourist. They're used to English speakers and you won't stick out so much.

It's a beautiful city in it's own right with plenty of beautiful local women, lots of cultural aspects, fine weather and a great nightlife. The city center on summer evenings is something to behold, the food is excellent and the city is safe. It's history makes it dear to both Russians and Ukrainians alike.

The women seem more approachable and willing to play because they're on holiday. Again, I'm not sure how good that is for wife searching but there are plenty of agencies in Odesa. (Be careful though, many of them are not on the up and up. There are some good ones however.) If you're just looking to have fun I can't stress enough how beneficial it is to speak some Russian, otherwise you'll be unable to approach women on the street. However they're plenty friendly enough when you do.

Personally I've seen better looking women in Odesa than Kyiv but the numbers are greater in Kyiv of course. Also Odesa is more ethincally Russian than Ukrainian. The so called mafia problems are transparent to tourists and need not be worried about. Easy to get to from Kyiv, if you know where to buy the tickets a flight is $30 one way. (lol, it's because they don't buy tires, the ones on my Yak 40 were in terrible shape.)

There are lots of reasons Odesa will grow on you, ask anyone who has been there. (Then again, Crimea isn't too shabby either.) No basis for comparison with Dnep, I haven't been. There is no comparing Odesa to Kherson, Odesa wins hands down. Kherson is an old stomping grounds of mine, there are some decent women there but too many bad agencies and insincere girls imho. It's an OK place to play if you want to deceive the truely marriage minded ones, a practice I avoid and personally find despicable. Kherson is also somewhat of a dump. Course, all this is only my opinion and its worth exactly what you paid for it.

... in response to Was it me or do Ukrainians despise bras?..., posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2003

My first trip to Ukraine, Marina and I were riding the bus and some older woman got on with a loose mesh blouse on and no brassiere.  I wondered why she even bothered wearing the blouse.  That was more the extreme end of things.  Still, many Ukrainian girls tend to see a brassiere as an optional piece of clothing.

Once your lady settles in the US, she'll adapt quickly enough.  Most former Soviet Union (FSU) ladies tend to pick up on America's more puritanical views on fashion.  

Interestingly enough, the brassiere was never intended for everyday wear.  The lady who designed it, intended it mainly for athletic support.  A kind of female athletic supporter, if you will.  Women just decided to wear it all the time, either out of modesty or else convenience.

... in response to It's considered more an option than nece..., posted by John K on Jun 24, 2003

(Note below that a Russian immigrant founded Maidenform.)

The first modern brassiere to receive a patent was one invented by a New York socialite named Mary Phelps Jacob in 1913. Mary had just purchased a sheer evening gown for one of her social events. At that time, the only acceptable undergarment was a corset stiffened with whaleback bones. Mary found that the whalebones poked out visible around the plunging neckline and under the sheer fabric. Two silk handkerchiefs and some pink ribbon later, Mary had designed an alternative to the corset. The corset's reign was starting to topple.

An unhealthy and painful device designed to narrow an adult women's waist to 13, 12, 11 and even 10 or less inches, the corset is attributed to Catherine de Médicis, wife of King Henri II of France. She enforced a ban on thick waists at court attendance's (1550's) and started over 350 years of whalebones, steel rods and midriff torture.

Mary Phelps Jacob's new undergarment complimented the new fashions introduced at the time and demands from friends and family were high for the new brassiere. On November 3, 1914, a patent for the 'Backless Brassiere' issued. Caresse Crosby was the business name Jacob used for her brassiere production. Running a business was not enjoyable to Jacob and she soon sold the brassiere patent to the Warner Brothers Corset Company in Bridgeport, Connecticut, for $1,500. Warner (the bra-makers, not the movie-makers) made over fifteen million dollars from the bra patent over the next thirty years.

Mary Phelps Jacob was the first to patent an undergarment named 'Brassiere' derived from the old French word for 'upper arm'. Her patent was for a device that was lightweight, soft and separated the breasts naturally.

Other points in the history of the brassiere worth mentioning:

* In 1875, manufacturers George Frost and George Phelps patented the 'Union Under-Flannel', a no bones, no eyelets, and no laces or pulleys under-outfit.

* In 1893, a woman named Marie Tucek patented the 'breast supporter; the device included separate pockets for the breasts and straps that went over the shoulder, fastened by hook-and-eye closures.

* In 1889, corset-maker Herminie Cadolle invented the "Well-Being" or "Bien-être", a bra-like device sold as a health aid. The corset's support for the breasts squeezed up from below. Cadolle changed breast support to the shoulders down.

* World War I dealt the corset a fatal blow when the U.S. War Industries Board called on women to stop buying corsets in 1917.  It freed up some 28,000 tons of metal!

* In 1928, a Russian immigrant named Ida Rosenthal founded Maidenform. Ida was responsible for grouping women into bust-size categories (cup sizes).

... in response to It's considered more an option than nece..., posted by John K on Jun 24, 2003

NT