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my friend Jack,
for I have been  writing to a nice girl from St-Petes, since last fall.
She wanted, insisted that we meet soon.
I suggested Paris, because of the winter in Russia, etc........

She wrote me a nice letter, telling me that it was easy for her to come to Paris.
That all,  I had to do was to send her money for the plane trip, a three stars hotel,
the visa (there was two price here, one with the package and another one) and
the insurance.  She told that she was an honest person and would come to Paris.

So I called Jack,  he did let me know in no uncertain terms,  that I was going to get it and
that she wouldn't be using any grease.

So hard headed as I am,  wrote back that a friend (Jack's man), would see  to everything,
plane trip -business or club class on Air France,  the hotel, the best, Les Crayeres in
Reims.  That he would do all the work, taking her to the travel agency...etc.  Take her
to the airport, gave her money for the plane ride, as if she needed it.

We talk on the phone, she loved the hotel and the idea.   But the e-mail got shorter and
less freguent.  Our talks on the phone were also different.

As I stand tonight,    no e-mail for ten days,  when I did call, no answers.

Jack was right, should have listen.
But,  nuts, like me, do think that all his fair in love as in war.
I am a peacenik.

Hey Jack,  I will not go on a trip and social.
Perhaps after have glu my face to the glass once more.
Shall I go.

Thanks.

... in response to always listen to............., posted by micha1 on Mar 23, 2003

The experience of the gals asking for the money for trips to wherever has been noted on this and other such boards for a long time.

I have also encountered same, and have generally ruled out such gals.  Last April I met with 3 RWs in Turkey.  2 paid their own plane tickets and I bought ticket for one.  I purchased her ticket from Aeroflot in New York on my credit card.  She couldn't cash in the ticket.  Another gal said I would not only have to buy her ticket, but she wanted me to replace her salary because she said she wouldn't get paid.  Too hard to believe, so she didn't make the group of 3.

Am planing for another get together again for near future.  One lady said I should send her the money.  This was a woman who earned $500 per month which is far above average.  And when we were together the first time, she had showed me pictures how every year she took vacations to the southern beach areas, Crimea, Turkey, Cyprus, etc.  I asked her why she needed money for ticket since she regularly took these trips anyway.  Never got a good answer from her.  A few weeks later, I got a message from her that she thought we had no future because she didn't have "the big feeling for me for the sake of which it was necessary to contine."  But I have never been a WOVO guy, so that was not a tragic loss, even though it was my first Dear John letter.  

Another gal only earns $100 per month, but she has been saving for several months and is going to borrow from family and friends to buy her own ticket.  She insists that she buy it herself.  I am planning to give her the money back when we are together, but she may not take it.  This is my type of gal.

And I have also experienced the big city Russian gals  attitudes about those from the other areas of Russia.  I frequently put a joke at the bottom of my messages.  In one message I was asking this St. Petersburg gal where else in Russia she might want to live . . . . and I listed a few of the southern cities.  She answered back that she "enjoyed my jokes, and that the jokes weren't only at the bottom of the page."

JR

... in response to always listen to............., posted by micha1 on Mar 23, 2003

Thanks for sharing. Most of us here have been burned at least once so don't feel too bad. At least you did not get taken for a lot of cash. If we were all honest, I am sure a lot of guys could tell you about very expensive mistakes. I know I could. : )

Lesson learned here for newbies is to find expereinced people you trust and listen to their advice. Especially when you are certain you know better. There is a reason Jack knows so much. Its because he has learned these lessons the hard way or known people who learned the hard way. Why make yourself learn the hard way when you have someone who can so easily provide a safer and more effective path. All you have to do is pay attention and follow through.

Like I said, Jack is a great one (he also helped me more than I can say), but there are other very knowledgeable people here too. I don't want this to turn into a commerical for Jack, but I am using him as an example because he helped me. If you have someone else to help you, then the same basic thought still applies.

You guys have an amazing resource here (expereinced posters) so please do not hessitate to use them all. To me, it is the value of this board.

Thanks again Micha1 for the great post.

... in response to Re: always listen to............., posted by DanM on Mar 24, 2003

Thanks DanM,  there is a lot more about what I am learning of late.

Another friend, he's Moldovian.  A surgeon, urologist, he was practicing in St-Petes.  Now residing in Montreal
and working in a big hospital, at last.  Because, he had to learn two languages - french and english, also to use
them perfectly - also pass the medical exams.
This friend tells me that,  it is almost of waste of time for North American men to have a try with Russian girls,
because they do think that they are much smarter than we are,  the dumbs McDonald eater.
Jack, when I asked him the question, said that this applied mainly with girls from St-Petes and Moscow. The big
cities slickers.  In the same way that, someone from the Big Apple would be most likely to think about you in
Shreveport or wsbill in NW Tenn, as country pumpkins.
My example may not be perfect, so excuse me, if my image shock.
I always had the impression, had made up my mind that,  I should look in Russia and to forget about Ukraine.
Looking back, I can see that I was up s'*t creek and without a paddle.
More, most happy guy, are marry to Ukraine girls.
Some are waiting for baby and walking in the clouds, some would have given their right arm, so that their adopted
kid came out of the hospital in A-1 shape, and on and on.
Like in everything, this afternoon I do realize that I had not eaten all of my bread.
Rhetoric is very nice, but listening is much better, along with a little bit of philosophy.

Another quirk of mine.  Is not to meet the girl in her own environnement.  To have her travel, that way she would
be more vulnerable and that I could have more advantages while learning her.  All the while, being the rich
uncle from North America and make a big impression. Thinking the deck was loaded in my favor.

Today, it is back to sqare one, hoping to be a better reader, mostly a better listener.  (this last part is for Jack).

thanks
michel

(I should change my handle,  there is three Michel in my immediate family, we called each other Micha, Masha..
etc.  One day, my sister came up with number, one for me, two and three for the nephews,  I thought it would
be smart to use micha1, here.  Being fairly honest and having nothing to hide, why not use my name.)

... in response to Re: Re: always listen to............., posted by micha1 on Mar 24, 2003

Michel you now have more humility,thanks for your posts.Lots of good things will happen to you and countless others that have given freely of their experiences,and heed others suggestions.cs

... in response to Re: Re: always listen to............., posted by micha1 on Mar 24, 2003

Sorry Micha1, but that was too funny. Please do not take offense, because I am not trying to mock you. I just get tickled by being called a country "Pumpkin". FYI, the term is "Country Bumpkin". : ) It souunds similar, but it creates a very different mental image. Anyway, thanks for the funny moment.

As for me, I lived in Miami when I met my wife. You can imagine how attractive of a location that is with Russians. Its large, exotic, sunny and has a very large Russian community. I had to sort through the girls that seemed more interested in Miami than me. Not a joke.

As for your analysis about the preferences of girls from Moscow and St Petersburg, you have a point. Luckily, its only a generalization. It describes a probability, but it does not describe all girls. I met a wonderful girl from Moscow who loves living in Shreveport.

Just remember that trends and generalizations are good when you are dealing with things on a very preliminary level, but it all comes down to the person. My wife, like many Moscow residents, does not have the small town bias you mentioned. She says Moscow or St Pete are the only Russian cities she would live in, but she also makes the distinction of saying that foreign cities are much different.

Although I do not know this Moldovan doctor, I just want to offer a hypothetical scenario to suggest one possible reason for his statement. People from Moscow and St Petersburg usually think any other location in the FSU is a step down. I am not saying I agree with them, I am just stating a common view. Maybe this guy dealt with girls from these cities who were a little snobbish towards him because he was from Moldova and maybe this is the basis for his statements to you.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that there are many great girls in every location (including Moscow). Just remember what you are looking for and keep an open mind.

Good luck.

... in response to Advice from a country "Pumpkin"..., posted by DanM on Mar 24, 2003

Never had the inclination to say that you were a country pumpkin,  I know that you understood my image.
My original   idea was to go for a Russian girl, leave the Ukrainian alone.
After what you have said,  what Jack said and my friend Uri.
I do come to the conclusion, that I could go to the middle of the Amazon Forest and hit a home run.
It does depends on the individual.
Someone once said,  that luck was when experience meet with opportunity.
Then you could probably go on for three pages on this.

Whenever I wanted a good horse in my life.
I worked hard, doing homework,  then went and look for it, no leaf were left unturn.

So there are a few girls on Jack's site, who do look the part.
I am going to do a WMVM,  this before the middle of summer
and leave it all to chance.  Perhaps somewhere, walking in the street, a park, a boutique,
restaurant, a bar.....etc.  it will be there.
Perhaps of the ones who do look the part, one of them will be it.

The only question that I do ask myself when in front of a girl, is,
how will she take care of the child(s), after I am gone,
this is the unknown, the scare that comes over me.

My dream, meet a nice girl from the FSU, culture, education, traditions.
Have the kid(s) born in France, he-they become multilingual, having a choice
at is-their majorities to be a citizen of whatever they please, France, Russia, Canada,
of the world may be.
Then the questions, is a girl from a large family better adapted to raise children,
she must have higher education and born with a mind that live on learning.
The expectations are piling up on my part.
So must I roll the dices and just go forward.
What a feeling it is when we are in love.  Having also learn that I did love and was very happy,
only after the girl did dumped me.
So being from the London and Kerouac generation,  the Jacks,  the answer is to hit the road.
Sitting in front of a screen won't do it or just partly, right.

How did you meet you wife?  If you permit me to ask.

Now I have to go to:  OJC.com and watch some races.
Thanks for everything.
michel

... in response to Re: Advice from a country "Pumpkin&..., posted by micha1 on Mar 24, 2003

How did I meet my wife? This could be a very long answer, but I will not bore you with all the details.

First I will give you a little background on me. I had an unsuccessful WMVM experience in January of 2000 and I was a little burned out on the idea of  finding a girl in the FSU until maybe the spring of 2001. When I decided to try again , the first thing I did was to find a good discussion board (this one) so I could learn from more experienced people. The first time I went, I was totally in the hands of an agency and I feel it was not the ideal formula for success. Therefore, I had decided to take more control over my search the second time.

Guys like Dan, KenC and especially Jack were a big help. There were more,  but these are the ones who come to mind first. They would give advice, be my personal sounding board and also give moral support. I have said it often, but I will say it again. I owe all of these guys so much, because they helped me find my wife.

Anyway, back to the original question. I was writing to different girls on different web sites. My general strategy was to focus on smaller boards that seemed legitimate. The bigger web sites had a lot of scammers. Also the really cute girls would get bombarded by so many weirdos that they would either stop answering letters or not take the letters seriously even when they did come from someone sincere. The smaller boards had less traffic and, more importantly, less weirdo traffic. Although some of these smaller web sites were either a little shady or not updated frequently, there were also some real gems for a guy willing to do the legwork. Also a lot of these smaller sites are absolutely free for the guy.

As you probably already know, one of Jack’s maxims is that initial responses were all a numbers game. Its not the romantic part of the search, but it is a crucial part of your search. You write to 10 with the hopes of getting 1-3 serious responses. Thats why its so important to pursue this part of the search with enthusiasm. If you want 10-15 serious responses to consider, then you need to write 50-100 letters.

Well I wrote to probably 30 girls and received maybe 8 or 9 good responses. I think I started writing in the Spring of 2001. Of these, I seemed to have a good initial click with 5 or 6. For one reason or another, none really panned out.

Anyway, one 9-7-01, I wrote a letter to a really cute, tall, blonde girl from Moscow. I don’t remember the name of the web site, but I do remember it was a small site that was free for the men. After about a week, we really hit it off and started writing daily. After about two weeks, we were writing twice a day. These letters were usually 2 or 3 pages each. We would talk about everything and I knew it was a good fit. After about a month, she asked me when I would come to visit her and I told her I would be there as soon as my job allowed. On 11-02-01 I made my first trip to Moscow and stayed for 2 weeks. She helped me get my hotel, drove me everywhere and was with me during all of her free time. Maybe I was lucky, but I really did not have a contingency plan in case she was a no show or in case we did not click. Lucky for me, she was the one. We both knew we were in love by the end of this trip. Sometimes it can happen that fast.

We met again in Paris for New Year’s and this is where I proposed to her. I went again in May of 2002 and I picked her up in July of 2002 (The K-1 process was a bear for us). I suppose the rest is history.

If there is anything I did not cover or anything you want me to cover in more detail,  then just let me know.

Take Care

... in response to Re: Advice from a country "Pumpkin&..., posted by micha1 on Mar 24, 2003

You covered a lot of points in your post. If I miss something, then please let me know.

No one can fault you for the WMVM approach. If it fits your temperment, then its a good general plan. Also letting a guy like Jack show you the ropes will be a big help.

My only advice is to not feel like you have to close the deal on this trip. Maybe you will meet the right girl now or maybe it will be several trips down the road. Be emotionally prepared to make several trips like your upcoming one. Know what you are looking for and don't reach for something that is not a good fit because you feel you must pick someone. I think that is a big trip a lot of WMVM guys can fall into.

As for the rest of it, I think you are over-thinking it a little. How will your future wife take care of the chlidren after you are gone? How would she do it if she were from Canada? You take reasonable precautions such as life insurance of whatever vehichle seems appropriate. Also remember that these girls are very bright and resourceful. My wife amazes me every day with her ability to learn and adapt. Just remember that whoever you fall in love with is a girl and not an FSU girl. Its a different culture, but the same species (joke).

I will send you another post to tell you about how I met my wife.

Take Care.