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Hello all this is only my second post on this message board.  I just returned home today from Vinnitsa, Ukraine.  I had been writing a young woman there for 7 months and decided to meet her in person.  I had a wonderful time in Vinnitsa.  Kate was wonderful!  She was everything that I had expected her to be.  Tomorrow I will be sending in the paperwork for her K-1 visa.  I have a question for any board members who have married women from Ukraine or Russia.  

What type of cultural differences can we expect to struggle with after she comes to the U.S.?

Any wisdom or words of advice will be greatly appreciated.

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Hi there,

My wife is named Kate-- well Kateryna- I hope your lady is as wonderful as mine.

now cultural differences... some you probaly know already but just let me underline a few...

driving... big change for most ukranians -- or least the part I saw... they have public transportation and they use it... if they are lucky they have a friend or family member  that has a car.

many wonderful things we have here that they dont have there but... it is true that we dont have lots of things they have there... foods, medicines, etc.  try to find a russian store close to you...

there is more but it is time for supper.. good luck!! and all the best,

Keith

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Dandy,

The fact is, longer courtships and more trips are not practical many times in these AM/FSU relationships. It is not a good thing but nothing much one can do sometimes unless you have a lot of time and money. For many doing it right is simply not gonna happen. I have rarely seen it done to the likings of those critical of the process. So, the problem is that we have a situation that does not always lend itself to allowing the precautions that we might otherwise take if the lady was from our own home town.

Some guys who are known for coming down on a guy for moving quickly have their heads to a certain degree in idealism so to speak as they just can not seem to get it into their heads that the ideal method and the real world for many guys can not by nature exist as one and the same.  

Ironically those in this group probably see themselves as being realists and even possibly risk takers in other areas of their lives that would not be considered wise or logical from others who have conservative attitudes in these other areas of life. I am sure they justify taking chances in areas that they want to indulge in yet....for others with different risks it is somehow different.

So, if one has a lot of time and money one can treat these courtships like you would at home where the divorce rate is at least 50%.

On the other hand, if you do not have all the time and money required for the ideal approach you must either

1) forget the whole dammmm thing.

2) bite the bullet, acknowledge the increased risks, take precautions and move ahead.

I suppose that those who criticize guys that take the course that is more realistic for their situation versus the more idealistic expensive time consuming method would want to relegate you to taking option one if you can not do it the idealistic way. Now that does not make sense either. The only issue that makes sense is how much risk you are willing to take.  

But to be fair, what value do these sideline dissenters have? Hopefully they get people to really think about the risk and if needed implement some precautions. They just want to present a hard line approach to telling you that there is to some degree a crazy insane nature to all of this and you had better take a close look, do not get lost in the fantasy of love and make some wise decisions as, wrong choices can return to bite your ass big time. My only issue is some could be more diplomatic but, I do not see that happening. The advice however in its nature is valid and for some it will allow them to perhaps observe something they need to see and thus provide a benefit. For others, they simply may not like the hear and they may opt to not participate here because of such.

Also keep in mind that the MOB scene is viewed by many outsiders as the domain of the male who is a loser, a loser who can not get a woman and thus must resort to taking advantage of women from countries where economics are bad who are willing to trade their beauty and youth for a better life. Some guys do who have delved in this do not want to be associated with this stereotype and perhaps this were some of this is coming from.

Good luck to you and don't let the bullies run you off.

Greg

... in response to Hey Dandy   btw  (friendly poster), posted by thesearch on Feb 20, 2003

all the 'critics' were trying to say is, it may be less prudent to marry a woman that you have actually been in physical presence with for a week or so.......that is it. If you cannot see the honest concern......I do not know what to say. Does it make sense to jump into a lifetime commitment, bring a woman halfway around the world, and make her lose everything on a 'whim'? Because that is what it is. Any horny dog can be happy for a year of getting his meals cooked and his yanker spanked.......I was very aggressive and less prudent than I would suggest but that is my life and very few people could live like I do. I have many great failures, a criminal background, many past addictions and the list goes on.......all this for the few success that I have achieved. So even though I was lucky. I was prepared to fail.......that was the difference. I am still prepared. That may be cynical but it is real. Like Mike.........you must be willing to miss many jump balls to make those winning shots......every one has the opportunity to win and lose........but I hate it when they come in out of the rain crying because they got soaked
Joe

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Welcome to the Board. You didn't run at the first blast of BS that got tossed in your face here so I'd say that you're serious about finding answers to your new relationship.

Some of the guys here may not be able to respond to your questions right away but be patient and if you don't get a answer, post it again. You've asked some questions that have pretty involved and highly subjective answers so be prepared...

For starters, let me say that I think starting your K-1 paperwork now is a grand idea. Why not? I don't think that anyone here who has gone through this process (or is doing it now :(   would tell you that they would have done anything that would have been able to speed up things. If things don't go well in this relationship, you will only be out the filing fee. You can stop the process at any time. Get things going now.

Beginning your K-1 will show both your girlfriend and her family that you are serious about your intentions. PAY ATTENTION! This is where the chaff begins to be separated from the wheat. This is when they face the fact that a BIG change in they're lives is about to take place and there are many clues and signals as to the probability of success or failure of your relationship. Up until now it has all been "blah, blah, blah" (to quote my wife ; )  You will now find out where her family and friends stand on the issue of her leaving HOME. Without their support, you will have a long row to hoe.

As to the cultural differences and shock of adjustment to life in the US, let's just say that it will be the biggest thrill and the biggest challenge of your life.

Stick around and somebody will eventually answer all your questions (not always the way you might prefer). If you would like some "help" with your K-1, email me at amtnmn4u@nospam.com.

... in response to To Dandy..., posted by Rags on Feb 20, 2003

Yeah I didn't think of the other aspect of filing now.  You pointed out a very good point.  Now that the paperwork is being filed when I go over in May I will be able to deal with the reality that they are going to be losing their daughter. I am sure that things may be a little different for her as well.  I don't think the complete realization has reached either of us.  It will be interesting to see how much certain things change because of this.

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Dandy,

great to hear you had a good time in Vinnitsa. My grandparents are actually living in that city :)

as for cultural difference - I think the impact of it is grossly overrated and most of the time you would be dealing with personal differences and adjustment process rather than something very big culturally. It would be more about people who are used to different living environment trying to adjust their habits, lifestyle and sometimes stereotypes and learning to compromise.

It also will depend on her age, her upbringing, attitude and how serious she is about your relationship. So nobody can tell you right away what to expect. We also don't know where you live - big cosmopolitan city or a little city. Also, I think you will be better off not having expectations about cultural differencies - there is a danger in it too. If you can't live with something or don't think it is the way it should be, you should not write it off to the cultural diffferencies and allow somebody behave "inappropriate" way. I hope you get my point.

Good luck to you,

Russian Wife

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

For what it's worth you can expect many cultural differances! Anything from men having custody to the types of food we Americans eat,and the music we listen to. You can expect all her reasoning abilities to be based on what she knows of life which isn't how we see things here. For example if she is here and meets one or two friends of yours then she may think this is how all American men are (because birds of a feather flock together) and she may not see that there are many different types of people here. My wife works with a group of women that I wouldn't normally hang around, nor my female freinds, but she used these women as the example of AW. Typically there are a few stages RW's go through when they come here. When they arrive they will spend a few months feeling like tourist and may want to spend their time with you alone instead of meeting others, and may want to travel and go see things.
They will go through a stage when they will think all Americans are stupid, they will miss their home badly when adjusting. I'm sure there is more to this list, but if she doesn't leave for home once she gets to the home-sick stage then typically it takes a few years before they love America. My advice is to just roll with the punches and remember she is the one that has to do the hardest adjusting work and you'll need to allow some things to not bother you and try to keep her needs before yours until you feel she is settled. At least this has been my observation, and others may argue or have different thoughts, or events in their marriage.
Mike

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

let me see how subjective you can be. Which of these sound like good ideas?
1. I met a girl on the internet; we wrote to each other for 7 months; I went to a foreign country where I know little about the culture; were getting married.......
2. I have been married for 2-3 months to a woman from a culture I know little about-------it is the best thing I have done in my life.
3. I have not married but have dated many women from the above said countries. I have found that there are some real dangers and one should tread cautiously and not make life decision after one or two weeks of meeting someone.
4. I have been married a few years now and even though the first were awesome, reality has set in and we have had to deal with some real issues, culturally, personally, and intellectually.
Of course your pals and family will support you, but no person in there right mind is going to tell you to jump into a relationship with a women you have only met for a few weeks........I do not care if you sent video emails for a year. Ask any married person. Living with someone is much different than living a letter, internet fantasy. So, listen to those with time or those still in the dream. But this is not going to be easy or cheap. As long as you are ready to sacrifice everything for a year or so-go for it. BUT DO NOT COME BACK CRYING AND SCREAMING SCAMMMMMMMMM. This is what I hate.
Joe
ps some guys never learn and will jump right back into the fire and marry the first girl they meet. The kinds of guys that do this are usually emotionally inept for whatever reason. If my situation had been different, I would have been more cautious. Yes it was worked so far,,,,,,,,,but who knows what tomorrow brings. Good Luck and grow some onions (Russian term) you are going to need them........and not for salad

... in response to Ok Dandy, it is time to show your age......, posted by yoe on Feb 20, 2003

I appreciate your advice. I also appreciate that it was directed in a respectful tone and not insulting.  My mother who is 72 is very encouraging of my decision. I think that it taking the advice of someone who is experienced in life. It was her idea in the first place that I try finding someone from Ukraine or Russia.  All I can burned for is money and another broken heart.  Marriages fail everyday even when the people have known each other for years. My last girlfriend I lived with for 2 years, I know what living with someone involves.  We knew each other for 3 years before we got together. Time doesn't guarantee that it is going to work. It may work and it may not work.I don't know very much about living with someone from another culture. That is why I am asking people on here.  In another post someone said that approximately 30-40% of these marriages are fraudulent.  Well the US divorce rate is almost at 50% so my chances are about the same.

... in response to Re: Ok Dandy, it is time to show your ag..., posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

true and good points, but its  when men do stupid things, like YOE points out, that pisses me off, get married in the first week when they barely know the girl, and when it doesnt work out, they cry SCAMMER or GREEN CARD SHARK,and they have no consideration for the girl, who just left everything behind to move here. at least i hope if you do this, and it doesnt work out,, and she goes back, you will help her until she gets a new job or something. most men just throw them to the sharks and go on another trip to meet the next victum. let me put it this way, would you drop everything you had, family, friends, job, everything you have known and just get up and move to a foreign country with a man you are not too sure about where a lot of diffrent things can happen?? i know i wouldnt. hope it works out for you, and by the way, you seem ok, because the ones who do krap like this, and when they post about it and the feedback is a little negative, you never hear from them again,they probably know its true so they dont come back to post, but you did , so i think you might have your head on straight.

... in response to Re: Ok Dandy, it is time to show your ag..., posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

your mother sounds like and awesome lady and I am sure that she loves you very much. I wish you the best. Just always be honest and expect the same respect that give. You are about to embark on the journey of a lifetime...........Welcome a-board.......;o)
Joe

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Why are you all so quick to judge? None of you even know the complete circumstances around the seven months that led up to this point.  What if we wrote letters almost everyday? What if our letters were several pages long?  What if we both had careers in the same profession? Would any of these things help increase the chances of our sucess? We have probably had as much correspondence as many people who have been writing for a year.

I have been hurt by women. Maybe not as bad as some of you and maybe worse than some of you. Yes I am 29 and never been married. Is that a bad thing? There are several 29 year olds who have been married and divorced, I am not one of them. I know I don't know everything that my decision will involve.  I asked about your culture experiences with Ukranian and Russian women so I can learn as much as possible.

I don't face criticism from friends, family, and co-workers. All of them are very supportive of my decision.  The only skeptics are people on this board.

Many of you have said you are just trying to help me or are concerned.  If you want to help me just share some of your experiences so I can be better prepared if I encounter them.

What are some of the cultural conflicts that many of you have had to deal with?

I understand the concern of only meeting a girl once.  I deal enough with the negative aspects of human nature that my view is "If she can pull the wool over your eyes for two weeks in February, she can do it in June too.  She can do it again in October.".  For the record I am going over again in May.  Will someone please help me understand the big advantage that a second or third trip will give you?

As for the right questions. If the girl stresses her Christianity you can ask her a question like "What does the word "submission" in Ephesians 5:21,22 mean to you?" I am sure many of you will write and insult me about what a stupid question that is, but think about it, there is no right or wrong answer.  Some men want the women to answer about being a husband serving slave and others don't want them to answer like that.  A women is most likely going to answer closer to her own feelings when the question has two potentially right answers.  I wrote several women for the first 6 months and eventually eliminated all but one based on her answers.  She told me that she was Christian which is great and really reinforced by the fact that she wasn't trying to sleep with me while I was there. She took time to get to know me.  I was impressed.

I didn't tell her anything about what I was looking for in a women.  The way I look at it is someone either has it or they don't.  If you tell them what you want then you will never know if they are being sincere or acting.

Tell me what do you think about some of the things I have stated.  

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

I would warn against making any serious decisions based on a translation of a concept between Russian and English. This is particularly true of religion.

The biggest pitfall in any relationship is miscommunication of ideas. It increases exponentially with differences of culture and language.

... in response to Re: "Christianity", posted by Rags on Feb 20, 2003

She speaks English and I speak Russian.

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

I'm on your side and I get a little disgusted with the critisism around here at times. But if you can decipher Yoe's meanings and get past LP's grumpiest old man routine they do offer decent advice occasionally. And there are a few more hiding in the background that don't post often but should be listened to. Learn to develop a thick skin if you want to play here. Read everything and pick and choose the odd bits that suit your thinking. Don't even try to win an argument because some of these guys will never quit and it's just a waste of time.

I can't help you with cultural differences because I don't know you or your girl. I've found that the cultural differences were less of a factor than personality differences. What made me write this was,"Will someone please help me understand the big advantage that a
second or third trip will give you?" What I will do is give you a quick summary of my first relationship with an RW. Maybe you'll see some similarities, maybe not. Do what you want but be aware of what can go wrong.

I wrote to my girlfriend for 8 months before I was able to visit her. She was an agency girl but I was the only guy she ever replied to. She quit the agency after she met me and she isn't involved with the internet anymore. We shared the same values and wrote long letters 3 or 4 times a week. But our letters were translated. And the interpretor thought she was doing us a favour by embellishing a little. Nothing serious but enough.

I went to Russia for 3 weeks and my girl and her family were with me almost every day. I was in heaven. The hardest thing I ever did in my life was come home without her. She was everything I'd ever dreamed of. But I wasn't the kind to propose on the first date. So I came home and began planning the next trip in 3 months. We talked an hour or two every week on the phone. And then I went back for another 4 weeks. At first everything was as good as the first time. But the longer we were together the more week noticed small quirks about the other that we didn't like. Not a big deal for me because I was still head over heels for her. But she wasn't so certain anymore.

Near the end of the 4 weeks we had a couple of big fights. I don't get mad easily but she managed to do it and I made her cry. But we managed to get things sorted out and I said that I would come back again. So after another 3 months I was back in Russia for another 4 week trip. I almost bankrupted myself because I wanted to work things out with her so badly.

My last visit to her was like a rollercoaster ride. Sometimes good, often not. Over a year of great letters and phonecalls, less than three months together and that was it. We drug things out another couple months of letters and phone calls but we both knew it was over.

All in all pretty much the same time span as an ordinary relationship here. But things were distorted because our primary contact was letters. Letters are great. I write a lot of them. Asking the right questions helps. But they only show you the side of the person that they want you to see. Reality is often different. In my opinion you need to spend a lot of time with the person doing different things in order to learn what they are really like.

I don't know all the legal ramifications of getting a K-1 visa because I'm not an American. I don't know if it's easy or hard or how many you are allowed to bring over and send home. Personally I'd be very, very certain before I used one. You will only really get to know the girl after she arrives at your home. But time spent overseas with her can save you problems here. I'm not judging you because I don't  know anything about you. Just giving a real life example example.

... in response to Why more than one trip?, posted by Zink on Feb 20, 2003

n/t

... in response to Why more than one trip?, posted by Zink on Feb 20, 2003

In your profile, you said that if we wanted to know something, we only have to e-mail you.

It would be very good,  but your e-mail address in undisclosed.
Thanks
michel

... in response to Re: Why more than one trip?, posted by micha1 on Feb 20, 2003

True, I just cancelled the one that was there and haven't put another up yet. Someone had a virus and it was attaching my e-mail adress when it was sent out. I started getting several nasty letters a day from people I'd never heard of wanting to know why I sent them a virus. As far as I know it isn't possible to send a virus through hotmail but I killed the adress because I didn't need the hassle. I've got anonther now. If you want to chat send it to vsadneek@hotmail.com

... in response to Why more than one trip?, posted by Zink on Feb 20, 2003

Dandy Listen to Zink!!!!He is your age but writes with more wisdom and insight into RW's  than most men on this board. You can take Zink's story and apply it to mine.Time frame is alittle bit longer for me. Mine was two years. But same number of trips and same emotional fireworks.And the parting almost the same. One thing though...I don't know your personality but be really strong and make most of the decisions for these girls. In my life in LA, I am surrounded by Type A people who has a good reputation of always following up their decisions with actions. So I let my colleagues work by themselves.These Russian women ...no matter how "strong" or "educated" seem to want the man to make decisions about the relationship for them.That's what mine told me after we had said goodby.If they want to get married and come to your Home it will have to be you that suggest it and make the arrangements. They have many fears and friends and family member telling them all the negative aspects.In the end I was surprised that my RW ..a physician.. said that I should have told her to get ready to come to LA and make all of the arrangements, not ask her how she felt and how comfortable she was with coming to my home. She said that she had invited me to come to see her and her parents three times and if she was not interested in coming to my home in LA she would not have invited me back so many times.She said that I kept her waiting for to long that she did not think I was serious at the end, so she found a local guy.
Hey Zink... give me a call sometime.Let me know how it is going with your new girl.

... in response to Re: Why more than one trip?, posted by Watcher on Feb 20, 2003

Things are great for me right now as far as my girl goes. But I'm not going to post any details about my current relationship here. Old relationships I can do. But I'm respecting my current girl's privacy. I'll be in touch if anything new pops up. You know how to get ahold of me too.

... in response to Why more than one trip?, posted by Zink on Feb 20, 2003

Zink,
Great post, and very realistic and well said.This is the kind of post I get the most out of.It made me think about all expectations I am setting up in my head.I am somewhat compulsive so I need to occasinally stop and sit on my hands.
That is one of the great values of this sharing of experince,strength and hope-- Thanks

... in response to Re: Why more than one trip?, posted by CS767 on Feb 20, 2003

nt

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

Everyone wishes you the best of luck.  Just look at both sides, as success rates as well as failure rates are all over the board.  Again, welcome...and you are in a good place to get advice.

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Hi Dandy,

Sorry you got drilled. (WOVOs usually do -- and WOVO success stories are especially Vilified ...) A lot of the best voices are no longer heard around here… they got run off by the politics … it’s a shame, but that’s the state of things now.

Much of what you seek is in the archives... although there is also so much crap there, I can understand why guys no longer want to wade through it all.

I am no expert on Ukranian vs. American cultural differences... (that IS the actual question you asked... right?)

I am married to a Ukranian woman, and can tell you -- anecdotally -- some of the things we have seen. What is true for my wife might not be true for your fiance.

But, if you're interested, drop me a line at: markjoel60@hotmail.com, and I'll be happy to tell you what I have observed...

Good luck!

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Hey Dandy,
    I am only at my third or 4th post here so what the heck.I am here to learn also.I got a lot out of going thru the archives  and looking at various topics and opinions.I also looked at every webaddress that was printed and learned more.Some weird pictures of people on buses--lol
The only dumb question is one that isn't asked--Was that, Will Rodgers?I am going over in May to Sevastapol and see one lady.I am of the WOVO type(write one visit one)That acronym took me a couple of days to figure out.I really enjoy all the postings even the guys that put others down,cause I know why they do--so they will feel superior to others.Some are just trying to be funny and get attention.Take it all with a grain of salt.Ultimitley you will be responsible for your own choices anyway.(Shoot in foot after careful aim)Thanks to all!

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by CS767 on Feb 19, 2003

...yer full deflection on that opinion, better call for a miss now. Just because you're using yer own VDP doesn't mean it's right. Better stick with whats on the plate, I'd hate to think you were a flaps up, gear up, shut up, kinda guy.

It's not that black and white, there is valuable advice to be found in viewing the dark side of the equation. The guy can certainly do what he wants but if it blows up he'll just be another in a long line of statistics that blackens the public image of this process and could conceivably lead to legislation or controls that make it harder for those who follow.

Contrary to what you think, no one here wants to see another one of these deals end up in a smokin hole. Also, if yer gonna hang out here you need to understand this place is kinda the virtual equivelant of a hat base. I accept that, so should you.

... in response to Hey Skipper...., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

Hey thanks for the opinion--Im not sure what you said, but
thanks!I guess you have some airline experience?I started on the Ramp and went to R&E school and A&P school then got all my ratings to fly.I started at age 20,in 1963 and just retired last July.
What affinity do you have for the airline business?
 Charlie s

... in response to Re: Hey Skipper...., posted by CS767 on Feb 20, 2003

.....you flew the line and didn't understand what I said? I assumed you were a 121 ATP, a private ASEL/IFR would've understood most of that. Surely a 121 driver would've. Just what equipment were you operating when you retired? I've been an FO on the 737-500, currently left seat on a CRJ and hoping to move to a 747-400F in the future. (Pax are way too much hassle) Also typed in the Lear 35, CJ1/2 and hold a LOA for the Aero Vodochody L39.

... in response to Odd...., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

The part I didnt get was all the aviation lingo as it applied to what we are talking about here.It just didn't ring as appropriate to the post--but then again some of your other posts didnt make a lot of sense to me either---so I guess, like all the other people you like to put in their place---I guess I have been:  PUT IN MY PLACE! Oh yes I have a few ratings also but I wont bother to put you down or appear to act as if I am better than you by briefing you about all of them.Its too lenghty and not appropriate here---LOL! Thanks for the post!
 You are real close to being rude to me and I dont like it.I will thank you to please be a gentleman.

... in response to Re: Odd....yes really odd, posted by CS767 on Feb 20, 2003

"Mr. Bitter."

He garners joy - out of insulting people.

Heck, I'm in your boat as well. There are some fine people here - who actually assist men in this quest.

... in response to Pay no attention to..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 21, 2003

Thanks for the support!I think LP means well anyway--Dont you LP?

... in response to Re: Pay no attention to..., posted by CS767 on Feb 22, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

......you be smarter than I thought Skipper. I just don't sugar coat things. Btw, be sure to take advice from guys who picked a chick from a social or those who got sucked into it because they got laid in the first 30 minutes. The ones so desperately lonely they would have married anyone that smiled at them and then constanly demonstrate just how desperate they were and how insecure they remain by boasting about it like a love sick teenager. The ones who married a week after their so called "prize" arrived, no 90 wait and see period for them, no Sir. The same ones with multiple prior divorces who learned nothing from them. Yep...be sure you listen to these "successful" morons.

Ignore those who've carefully searched, rejected the cheap and easy ones  for others to jump on, and then brought one back after carefully developing the relation over time and many trips. Those who invested the time, emotion, and money to intelligently conduct the search, thus insuring far better odds at *longterm* success. Nah, that simply couldn't compare to the method above now could it? You decide....

Oh well, what can you expect from NBA or NFL fans? Never met one who wasn't an unedjucated, beer swilling, confidence lacking, dumbazz hick. I hear hear they make great sales people too. Since they possess no other skills, have no integrity and are masters at slinging BS, they do well in the one of the scummiest professions known to man. (Maybe you can explain to such people what it takes to obtain one of the most competetive, lucrative, and well respective jobs in the nation.)

Btw, I do not now, nor have I ever, (and never claimed) to fly for Delta. It's just another example of how easily some folks reach false conclusions based on who knows what. Where I come from we call that delusional.

... in response to Sure I do...., posted by LP on Feb 22, 2003

Ole LP, right on again with much of what you post.

Heh, heh, heh, yea ignore those guys who took there time and met X number of Russian ladies (good and bad) before finding the perfect high morals bride AND waiting 75+ days before marriage once she arrived!

... in response to Sure I do...., posted by LP on Feb 22, 2003

topless dancing?
#;o)
happy yoe

... in response to Pay no attention to..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 21, 2003

...as we say in the biz. (Hey, maybe the skipper can explain that one to you)

Then again, when it comes to OC pukes....

... in response to Re: Odd....yes really odd, posted by CS767 on Feb 20, 2003

...I simply answered your question. Now you pound on me for doing it? I never claimed to be better than you, after all, you're the one who retired with all those years. I was only surprised that you didn't fathom a lanquage you should know by heart. My lingo didn't apply to what we we're talking about? I guess the cognitive problem solving part of the interview has gotten a little more difficult since you went through it.

I doubt anyone here feels like I put them in their place, you're not giving them much credit by saying so. Besides, I'm not here to win a popularity contest.

Me thinks you're just bent because you were forced out. Don't blame me for that, I don't make the rules. Or maybe you never got past FE or were a ramp monkey or baggage smasher the entire time. Thats not my fault either. If not, don't pull that pre-CRM days crap on me, I bet your crew didn't take it and I won't either. You'll get my respect when you give it to me, or behave like the pro you claim to have been, not some washed up graybeard looking for an FSU hottie.

Hows that Capt? Rude enough now?

... in response to Hey, you asked...., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

What airline do you work for? Id sure like to avoid it in case you be driving!

... in response to Re: Hey, you asked...., posted by Rando on Feb 21, 2003

There are actually even more compelling reasons to avoid Delta airlines, if you can believe it...

One: They cramp you terribly. American Airlines made a big deal about more leg-room in coach... and it is not just a marketing campaign -- its real.

Two: American Airlines has power outlets in almost every seat now, which if you are like me and carry a DVD player and/or laptop, means that you have power for the whole flight.

I was shocked when I flew Delta to Paris -- cramped seats, and no power -- For an INTERNATIONAL flight, it was horrible. If I wanted that kind of service, I would have flown LOT.

And then there's the whole "strange pilots" thing, too...

You're right.. you are better off booking on a different airline...

... in response to Re: Hey, you asked...., posted by Rando on Feb 21, 2003

...thats hires nothing but the best drivers. Besides how would you know? Hey I got it, you could just look for the handsomest crews.

Me thinks it's too late, I bet I've already carted your butt around. Try to behave if it happens again, the only thing scarier than the driving is that now we get to shoot at folks who give us too much trouble.

... in response to Hey, you asked...., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

Not even the Pawn Boys get spankings like that one. LOL. Poor Pawns are sitting in the shed now, its 95RH @ 29 today and its been a peein down for two days. Phewwwwww.....
Sounds like a graybeard, all up shut up, what a life. Needs a few trees for a laugh! Ive got a good Mate whos one of them rm/bs fellas, and he reckons its like doin 20 aerobic lessons in a sauna at present, fair dinkum he will be skin & bone in a few days. LOL Good luck getting to the ls of the 400. I reckon the only thing I could feel comfy with is that SB alonside me,  Id think I was in the Vic Tourer again!!!  When Ya headin off to the FSU agian? Ever? Cheers.

... in response to Re: Hey, you asked...... LOL !, posted by JohnL on Feb 21, 2003

nt

... in response to Hey, you asked...., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

well uhhh...mmmmmm,,,,,uh, well.........oh never mind
8o|
the silent yoe

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

I would like to thank the individuals who actually gave some decent advice or kind words.  Let me start by saying that maybe posting on this message board was a big mistake.  Some of you apparently are so knowledgeable that you feel like it is a waste of your time to post something useful.

Just because she gets the Visa does not mean I have to bring her out right away.  Last I checked I can travel to Ukraine numerous times while we are waiting for the Visa.  If it doesn't work out then I am out a few hundred dollars.  If it does work out then I don't have to wait an additional 6 months to bring her out.

From my experience, which is obviously inferior to most of yours, I have learned more about women I have dated in the first week I lived with them than the entire time previously.  If a women has the skills to deceive you for 90 days that she is here on a Visa, she definetly will have the abilities to deceive you in numerous visits to Ukraine.  I have been deceived by women I have known personally for several years. The questions you ask are far more important than the amount of questions you ask.

Pre-nup. agreement.  Wow! I don't know how many of those I have seen be thrown out by Judges in my line of work. There are a lot better ways to protect your assets than a Pre-nup.

Do you really think that I am not up to speed on cultural differences?  You are right I am not.  I could spend 2 weeks, 24 hours a day thinking up all the ways that cultures will play in my future.  Even with all my thinking every single one of you can think of a hundred things I didn't. Every single one of you can relate experiences that nobody else has experienced.  All of you are right I am a moron because I choose to learn from other peoples experiences.

Sorry I asked.

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Firstly, welcome.  Most first time posters don't announce their engagement as you did.  Many have gone your route and things didn't work out as planned, so don't be upset that everyone doesn't share your euphoria.

Nobody wants to see you fail...just the opposite.  You wrote some interesting things I will comment on.  I think you meant that you can learn a great deal about a person in the first week, as opposed to afterward.  (you said,than
"previously")  I think you can certainly form a favorable impression of a person in a week.  But I know few to none who can see and determine a person's entire emotional, psychological, spiritual and physical range in a week.

You can learn much by asking the right questions, and some questions and answers carry more weight than others.  But everything you need to know in a week?  Maybe you could enlighten us with the top 10 or 20 or 100 that made you "pop the question".

By the way, a well written prenup which is fair for both, with enough time to study and modify, does stand.  Few judges want to be overturned.  I have some experience here as well.  And they protect things like appreciation, as well as marital assets.

Knowing what the divorce rate here is, just ask yourself if this is really in your best interest to move so rapidly.  Ask yourself if this is the same way you would act here with an American girl, to get engaged after 2 weeks.  If your answer is no, maybe you have not asked yourself "the right questions".

Sorry to have gotten your titty in a wringer.  I just always ask in business as well as my personal life...look at the way things really are, as opposed to the way you would like them to be.  Good Luck.

... in response to Re: WOW Thanks!, posted by Globetrotter on Feb 19, 2003

GLOBETROTTER WROTE:
Knowing what the divorce rate here is, just ask yourself if this is really in your best interest to move so rapidly. Ask yourself if this is the same way you would act here with an American girl, to get engaged after 2 weeks. If your answer is no, maybe you have not asked yourself "the right questions".
_______

I do not believe he based his engagement on meeting someone for 2 weeks. There was a 7 month writing period. That is important and does factor into it all. Earlier in your message you did write that "You can learn much by asking the right questions, and some questions and answers carry more weight than others." Ok, fare enough but don't you think many of these questions can be asked in those letters and phone conversations? What is that letter writing time for? Once you meet you can ask the same questions and also more but do not ignore the writing period like it seems like a few of you are doing. There is a lot of value that can come out of that in helping someone decide to marry or not. Ultimately the meeting is the most important but everything must be added together when you decide to get married...

I think it was MarkInTx that wrote something about by writing for a long period you tend to get to know the person. When you finally meet it's not like meeting a stranger. I couldn't agree with him more.

Z.

... in response to I disagree with one comment... , posted by Zoidberg on Feb 19, 2003

...do you really buy into that? That writing or even talking for a period of time is equal to a time spent together enviornment? That you can really know someone well enough through those mediums to propose *marriage* after a short face to face meeting? Is that the point yer makin here? I say again: yikes!

... in response to Yikes....., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

[This message has been edited by yoe]

I was using a translator........and I was paying for letters that my now wife was not even writing. When I ask her later about some letters, she said she never wrote the stuff. LP we both have hindsight.......this guy is young. If we could be 29 again.......hahaha. Thank God he will not make the same mistakes as I. I cannot judge, but I feel that he should be man enough to look at both sides and tread cautiously........I made a few trips over to meet my 'woman' before she came over. Some guys never see the girl again until she arrives at the airport.......'peoples is funny man.........'
Joe

... in response to I disagree with one comment... , posted by Zoidberg on Feb 19, 2003

"I think it was MarkInTx that wrote something about by writing for a long period you tend to get to know the person. When you finally meet it's not like meeting a stranger. I couldn't agree with him more. "

Yeah... but what do I know?

I only married a woman from Ukraine, and wake up each morning with her, and start the day by thanking God I found her...

Ya'll really should listen to the advice of the guys who have searched but never found anyone... I'm just an idiot... They all know much more than I do...

They're experts on searching for someone. Some of them have been at it for years...

PS: I'm not around much anymore... but if you want to have a dialog about anything, drop me a line at: markjoel60@hotmail.com

The few times I have dropped by, I've enjoyed your posts...

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

you sound like a little kid winning because your parents took away your toy. if you cant handle a few opinions when they are not what you expected, then maybe you shouldnt post on here. just my opinion, but you sound like a guy who is just dieing to get  burned,  good luck.

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

[This message has been edited by yoe]

if this little constructive criticism has ruffled those delicate feathers---------run like hell now.......you will not last the 90 days. Due to the fact that you have unrelenting determination and a empircal knowledge of women-you have no knowledge of your family, co-workers, strangers lalalala that will look at you with suspicious stares wondering if you had lost your mind or if you are just a loser..........THIS IS REAL. Next you must deal with a woman who will be afraid, insecure, needy, uncertain and all the other worst traits of feminity-----are you ready to be a dad, a husband and a priest? Hey Jim Dandy............take the heat or run from the kitchen.......peace Joe
:oP
and love Squirrels

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

....I could appeal to your logic but I see that wouldn't help. Congrats, you've made so many conflicting and senseless statements you've bested me and I wouldn't know where to begin anyway. I've absolutely no experience in this and I'm just here to be sarcastic wise azz, ask anyone.

So I'll just say good luck. If you're too blind to see the "usefulness" of posts that don't coincide with your fantasies you're gonna need it. You be a good example of the old adage that "one can't argue with a drunken man."

... in response to You be welcome...., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

It is very true that you can hardly argue with a drunken person.
But one day, hopefully by the next morning, the person will have sober up.
One the subject that is on the table, here,
you can't  argue at all, with a guy that has hard on.
Which is a situation that is often confuse with love.
Loneliness can also motivate a person to dream,
to find easy answers....etc.
In the end, with all the goodwill in the world,
what do we really know from our elbow......

The only thing that I can confess knowing,
it is that I shall never know about roses,
women and love.

michel

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Dandy,

I agree that there are a few posters on here that feel superior to all, and their sarcasm in fact makes them useless to this forum.

Please dont let one or two fools stop you from posting. Im still learning and I learn much from questions just like yours.

These guys who already "know it all"..I really wonder why they stay on this site. Heck, I already know how to be rude and sarcastic....Im not interested in learning that.

You post an excellent question. You deserve honest answers and questions and opinions to your post. I think you got that for the most part. Ignore the rude and superior attitude from some. They are just looking for attention and they become ineffective voices to anyone but themselves.

You can still learn from a fool though....even if it's just to not act like the fool.

Don't go ...keep posting. Im new and could learn much from the answers to your question.

Thanks,

Randy

... in response to Re: WOW Thanks!, posted by Rando on Feb 19, 2003

Do you actually justify what most here including Jack, who's in the business, would consider reckless and foolhardy behavior?  Is this rude and being a fool, or acting foolishly?  When you go over for the first time, will you do the same as our new friend, who is not 17, and old enough to know better?  Jack, who peddles the flesh, has said many times that 30 to 40% of the girls may be scammers, card sharks, looking for a boat, or worse!  Some have had a pretty bad ride, some have contemplated suicide, some have died.  Most agree that this is not for the faint of heart.  All have read stories of some who have had very bad results from the venture.  We all love to read stories whereby it does end up a fairytale, with gobs of work and tutoring, and mentoring, and more care and love you need to give to a local girl...which keeps some of us thinking, maybe it can happen to us as well.  But you are dealing with a female who thinks with the other side of her brain, who may have an agenda, who might be very bored once here.
The possibilities are endless.  This is not the easy road but more difficult than one would normally encounter.  And just think, he was able to look, determine, judge, fall in love, ask the right questions, and her to marry him in a week.  This persuit, the most difficult thing any one of us will ever do in our lifetime, he was able to do in a week.
Right!  Maybe he should write a book about this great "shortcut to happiness" he has discovered by asking "all the right questions."  Sorry.  Lots of work, lots of questions, lots of actions observed, ask more questions, look into your soul and ask yourself tough questions, take your time...then act.  You know, human nature is also somewhere in this equation.

I don't see anything bad about anything that has been written in response to his gleaming post, but favors to him in saying, tread lightly.  Some have a more bellicose way of stating the obvious, but the messages are in his interest.  How can you object?  Nobody wants to see this guy fail, which is why they offer an opinion, which is why he came in the first place.  Wake up and smell the petunias!

... in response to I Don't Get It!, posted by Globetrotter on Feb 20, 2003

I met my wife on a vacation to Russia, liked her very much, and eventually invited her here after a few months. (with no choice but the K-1 visa)Got married because she was still the girl I met while on vacation. Heck lets look at this in dollars. Meet a girl there and come home and spend many nights wanting to go see her again because you are really impressed by her and then fly there many times to know her better on her turf which may or may not end up being a big production to empress you, or k-1 her over here and do your research. If you have a good impression of her then go for it! Why would you want to gamble there when you can gamble here where the odds are in your favor for not being scammed? She can't take you for anything of value or at least equal to the amount spent flying there over and over again. I suspect many folks are just tooo worried that this has to be EXACTLY perfect before bringing them here but yet some are still taken to the cleaners because they are sure she is the one after many trips there and marry quickly once here. On the technical side of things after 90 days are over you still have an additional 89 days to fly her back before she will get the banned from entering stamp placed in her passport, and if you do get married after the 90 days you'll just have to file the I-130 and she'll be good to go.(the down side only being able to go home before receiving advance perole in the even of an emergency)
Mike

... in response to I Don't Get It!, posted by Globetrotter on Feb 20, 2003

...his 7 months of writing.  Sure he pulled the trigger the week he was there.  Its also his decision to make.  Its what he feels comfortable with and he did it.

I took it as he was happy about what he did and wanting to share it, not asking if it was right or wrong.  IMHO

... in response to Re: A week?  You're neglecting....., posted by Jski on Feb 20, 2003

He also made a point about applying for the K1 but waiting some time before using it. Can you do this? Is there a time period after approval that requires you to take action on this approval?

... in response to Re: Re: A week?  You're neglecting....., posted by Rando on Feb 20, 2003

[This message has been edited by Rags]

the K-1 visa is good for six months from the date issued. I also believe that it can be reissued with fewer hassles than getting it the first time.

BTW, once you're petition gets approved (the hard part) you can delay the interview process. I don't know for how long but until you have the things needed (packet 4) for the Embassy they will not schedule an interview.

With the current delays processing petitions, you should have plenty of time ; (

... in response to Re: Re: A week?  You're neglecting....., posted by Rando on Feb 20, 2003

The k-1 visa can be extended without much problem after she gets it and stays in her country. Once you send the application in the rest is out of your hands unless you want it canceled.
Mike

... in response to WOW Thanks!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

....don't let them get to you.  In between all the off topic, strange posts and mud slinging, there really is some good nuggets of info here.

When you go, please post a trip report....

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

[This message has been edited by tfcrew]

Also mentioned below by our retired airline pilot poster..
You really won't/don't need them.  By nature, they are heady, pushy, and are meddlers.
A lawyer mentality if you will.
YOU are the tutor..you control the vertical..horizontal etc.
Good luck to you and your soon to be new family.
It's true as mentioned below....my wife opens products and smells them ..(deodorant etc.)...Why not?
Karl

PS However it may be necessary to translate full English at a wedding/marriage ceremony. By then, we here, had found a  friend.. Ukranian/American high school girl to help at our wedding ;)

... in response to A brief word about stateside "trans..., posted by tfcrew on Feb 19, 2003

Thanks for that post,I understand better.

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

you are already filing a visa after one meeting? hope you know what you are doing. if you too dont work out, and she has to go back, i hope you give her some money until she finds a new job. at least you are not getting married there and doing the spousal visa. hope it works!

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003


My friend Fred's fiance, Elana and her son just arrived from Krivoy Rog,Ukraine a couple of days ago and I called him on his cell to see how it was going.He told me he was shopping in Walmart and was in a delima with them.They were looking at the toothpaste and couldn't decide which one to buy so they decided to smell the toothpaste and make her decision.First laugh I got.Next he told me she was astounded this morning by the washing machine and the dryer,she Knew the dryer wouldnt get the clothes dry.They had to shop for a couple of weeks worth of things and the boy asked if it would last 6 months.He noted that what Fred paid for the groceries his Mother would have to work for months to pay for it.Then they were using one of those fancy translaters and the answer ,I guess ,came out in the Kings English and she got angry about the answer that came out.I will keep you posted on the on going saga of these first few days.I just love all this and it will be a taste of some reality for some and  "old hat"for others.Can anyone else inject some humor without hurting the feelings of some of the ladies that read these posts?Still laughing---
 We just don't know how really different we live here.I would love to hear some of the superstition thing people have run across.

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by CS767 on Feb 19, 2003

...

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

.....Although you won't like 'em, here's mine: Are you going back? Or are you gonna file a K1 and marry a woman you've met only once and spent what, a week or two with? Are you gonna go through this entire process and dramatically change the lives of everyone involved based on that?

Well thats just dandy....

... in response to Words of wisdom....., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

[This message has been edited by yoe]

I like to look are skwerls.........
http://www.scarysquirrel.org/lovey/
http://www.scarysquirrel.org/
http://www.scarysquirrel.org/insane/insane2.html
Enjoy.........
xoxo
Joe

... in response to Words of wisdom....., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

Sure sounds like that's his plan.  So..........hopefully he's thought about all of this, and has a prenup in Russian also...just in case things don't work out.

... in response to Re: Words of wisdom....., posted by Globetrotter on Feb 19, 2003

...He won't be different than many others who've taken that road, it'll just be another crap shoot. Doesn't mean it'll blow up, just not my way. Funny though, guy writes to a chick 7 months, comes back ready to file a K1 and then decides to ask about cultural differences. Wonder what else he's not up to speed on. Seems backwards to me, I researched everything for a month before I even started looking. I wanted to know exactly what I was gettin into because it could've stopped me. In fact, there are times I wish it had. ;-)

... in response to Good luck to him..., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

how about those millions of guys who banged a girl after a night at the bar and got hitched........hell most of our parents probably made similar mistakes........I know a 40+ guy who has been with only 2 women------ever........now even thoug studs like you and I may feel that he has missed out on something............maybe there are times when nature does find a way.......I do not know! But at times I do have to look up and say, "what now God?"......but you neve answer lp.......haha
joe
:OB

... in response to common now big papa........, posted by yoe on Feb 19, 2003

...but our parents lived in a different age than we do, at least mine did. This guy is obviously an expert at 29 years old. I bet he's never even been marrried or raked over, he sure acts like that. If he has, all the more amazing. Your reply to him makes perfect sense, he's got some learnin to do before he marrys anyone. I could poke a million holes in his arguments but whats the point? It's his life, he can do what he wants.

My opinion is that time and emotion is of the utmost essence to him, another case of a guy with too big a need to fill to think straight. Or simply another example of The POB in action. Good luck to him, I'll bet anything he'll be married more than once in his life.

Btw, I have a friend who is 38 and until recently had *never* been with a woman. Hell, he lived with his mother until a few months ago. He thinks he's perfectly normal but trust me, he's very far from it. I'll give you one guess in what he's all fired up about doing now....

... in response to Yer right...., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

"Btw, I have a friend who is 38 and until recently had *never* been with a woman. Hell, he lived with his mother until a few months ago. He thinks he's perfectly normal but trust me, he's very far from it. I'll give you one guess in what he's all fired up about doing now.... "

Ummm, becoming a pilot???   j/k :-)  easy there.

... in response to Re: Yer right...., posted by Jski on Feb 19, 2003

.....no more chocolate for you! ;-)

Globe is right, tact is not my best quality but I do have the guy's best interest at heart. You be right too, it's his life and he's made the decision. Good luck to him, let his chips fall where they may. Besides, me thinks your current situation precludes objectivity about any of this. ;-)

... in response to lol, thats it...., posted by LP on Feb 20, 2003

Hey, before I digress much, she Loved the chocolate and thanks again for the tip.  They must have sent me 20 e-mails letting me know whenever the package moved someplace. Nice service! of course half the box is gone, but fear not, my pixie is the same size....Her friends were over when it was delivered...

Might be a slight lack of objectivity there on my part :-), but I can also see where he is coming from as well.  If he made the right choice he will be happy a lifetime.  If its wrong, then I can't see a whole lot of difference to writing a girl on the net who lives on the opposite coast for 7 months then meeting and deciding to marry.  Yes, culture, language, etc... (of course LA is a different culture and language compared to Green Bay :-) (Yo vs. Ya hey der)

Oh, if I clip a bit on pilots its only self depricating.  I have a couple of those FAA cards in my wallet.  Just work on a different side of the process now :-)

... in response to Yer right...., posted by LP on Feb 19, 2003

love some squirrels?
Yoe
#;oP

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Hiya Dandy,

We got family in Vinnitsa. I've been there once. It's really nice during the summer. Ukrainian villages also makes a real impression. So poor, but they've still got so big hearts.

Ok, on to cultural differences. In the west we're individualists. The ideal is to be self made. In Ukraine it's much more family and group oriented. Everybody work together, help your family all the way, and such stuff. Make sure that you discuss family relations with your wife (When that time comes). It's not normal for westerns to have so close relationship with family as in Ukraine.

Another major thing is how they view the roles of man and woman. It's kind of how it was in the west in 1950. The man is a provider and a gentleman, while the woman is WOMAN. I.e. they think of the man as a provider, leader and security maker. The woman is more oriented towards family and children. Ukrainian women still has careers and high education. Most of them probably will still want to have that when they come to the US, so don't expect a kitchen robot. :-)

Ukrainian women love their men, and give them attention. This is really amazing. But they also demand attention and love.

Ukrainian women sets high standards for their men, and they make sure that the men come through and fill those standards. ;-) Don't be surprised if you'll find yourself in a gym and got a revised career plan after you marry.

Ukranians are more superstitious than us westernes. E.g. don't ever whistle indoors (Means that you're whisteling your money away). + + +

Good luck to you! I hope you find true love (It's Alfa and Omega to find true love and is a great blessing!).

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by Pacifix on Feb 19, 2003

For as few words that you used, I think you summed it up pretty good Pacifix.

... in response to Re: Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by thesearch on Feb 19, 2003

Ditto: Cavet Emptor