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[This message has been edited by yoe]

I thought I would do a simple outline of what I would think a prudent (if this is possible) attempt and marrying a foreign national
1. look through many site-spend 1-3 months just looking (unless you see one girl that just eats at your inner soul)
2. assuming that you find that one girl-write her for 3-8 months
a. also contact agencies that deal in this area
b. find other girls in this area just too maybe chat with as friends ie via chat rooms
c. if you find more than one write them all and weed them out in a few months.
3. if you are serious-do not make a girl wait for a year before you go. these girls are serious and men lie to them-always
a. plan on making your FIRST VISIT within 3-8 months
b. CONTACT AT LEAST ONE AGENCY IN THE AREA YOU ARE GOING
4. After you get engaged (90% of you will) get all information for a k-1 visa
a. make sure that you have visit many k-1 visa sites and the INS site to get your paperwork to take with you
b. if you do not make the love connection-do not worry-contact the local agency
c. do not feel obligated to marry this girl-
d. do not let your financial investment or fear of being alone for the rest of your life make your decision
5. this process will take 3-12 months
a. assuming you made a love connection-file the paper work
b. use a lawyer if you want but you CAN do this by yourself
6. plan on visiting your lady again in 3 months
(I say this just so that the initial Disneyland effect may have worn off and you can see if you your 'fiancé' can actually spend another week with you
a. I would not wait 6-12 months to be with your fiancé again
7. after your fiancé gets here........be patient, be strong and listen to her needs
8. God willing-----get married and live happily ever after
9. if you did not get engaged repeat steps that are necessary :)
10. there is much left out but the key is INFORMATION.
a.Have an agency in your back pocket.
b. to not feel rushed-especially if it is money
c. would you buy a BMW if you could not afford it? why travel across the world to force a wedding?
d.. always be honest with the girls but mostly to yourself
e. Good Luck and I hope this helps
Joe
ps I am sure that there is much I forgot or may have errored on so if anyone wants to add or edit-be may guest
LAST------GETTING MARRIED IS EXPENSIVE------GETTING DIVORCED IS A LOT MORE

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

that was actually - rather thoughtfull!

Nah...

... in response to Hey, RED..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 21, 2003

What is it with you,
calling everybody RED,
I was a little red mickey
the other day,
today Joe is red,
you can shove your redneck
picket fence psychology up
where it will please you.

... in response to Re: Hey, RED..., posted by micha1 on Feb 22, 2003

lil mickey your a prinze!!! iam sorry butt i aint got no fence or psychology. exchose me a minite.... hey clem fetch me tem pikled pigs feet wen you get the the beer... sorry bout tat. well i bes be goin cus were goin huntin. take care now ya here. an thank you fer carin bout wat pleases me iam much abligzed. make shere ya tell lp an joe howdy fer me.

... in response to whoooo weeeeee..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 23, 2003

Sorry Burke,  you are not  worth the time or the experience.
But you are very good on the personal attacks.
As for LP and Yoe, they can fend for themselves, I am sure.
When you will come out of the closet,  I wish, very sincerely
that you will be happy.

... in response to Re: whoooo weeeeee..., posted by micha1 on Feb 23, 2003

[This message has been edited by BURKE89]

Not, Mr Deviant!

I'm glad your 'English' continues to improve, however.

Hasta...

BTW, how are those French women & children doing, in the Ivory Coast?

... in response to I'm feeling remorse..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 23, 2003

..*your* english gonna improve? You make no sense 95% of the time. Whatsamatter? No comprendo down there in the land of fruits and nuts?

If I were you I'd move to Texas pronto, you'd fit right in there.....

... in response to When  is...., posted by LP on Feb 23, 2003

prior to: Gray, Barbara & Diane, any day.

Those thoughts are right 'trail-blazin',eh?

You know... come visit... S.A. soon, lp.

A quick pop to Pretoria... & your set - for fun.

2003, under M&M & the courtesy still remains... priceless. Zipee do da deh... world travelin' fly-boy. No native gal's, yet I'm sure they can  hook you with a pretty one.

My simple farming friends...

... in response to I'll take Texas..., posted by BURKE89 on Feb 27, 2003

...you make sense about one thing: Gray, Barbara and Diane
are pretty sad indeed. The rest is, as always, shaken, not stirred.

Better cross back over the Rio Grande before it's too late....

... in response to At least..., posted by LP on Mar 1, 2003

a certain vision; however, despite your insults, it's nice to see you're 'fond' of the: G.B.D. Triumvirate, as well.

Johannesburg calls...

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

While I was writing several girls, I also spent a lot of time looking at scammer websites.  I have been checking this web site for several months.  The women I travelled to Ukraine to see was not the most attractive women (or so I thought).  Her picture had a very charming smile, after writing her for several months she sent me another picture that floored me with her bueaty.  I started writing her in June of last year.  I made the decision to fly to Ukraine in October.  All the women I were writing were in Ukraine,  I didn't know which one I would see at this point (I was only going to see one,  I would feel like I was shopping through feelings if I spent time seeing many).
I found this girl through an agency that worked in the area. I looked all over the internet for information about this agency. There were no good things listed about the agency, but there were no bad things either. People will always report the bad and very seldom report the good. So far my experience has been wonderful. I visited her for the first time almost 8 months after we started writing. I took the INS paperwork with me just in case.  I had already made a connection with this girl before I went (I will explain this later).  I did not make a connection with any of the others.  The paperwork I will not do myself (I get 100% free legal advice work and counsel).  Now that the paperwork has been sent in I will be making another trip to Ukraine in May (I bought the plane ticket while I was at the airport after my arrival back home). Getting divorce is expensive, I hope I don't have to ever go through that, but hey, I get free legal counsel as I stated above.

Why I chose her and felt like a week was not rushing.  We have been writing for more than eight months now.  I have talked to her on the phone every wednesday morning (in Ukraine) before she goes to work since October.  We have wrote at least 2 lettes every week since July.  In each letter we ask each other 10 questions, I choose my questions from my experiences at work (I am a research Paralegal for the Family Law, and Estate Planning section of a Law Firm).  I have seen people get divorced over such things as severe abuse to Jicama (a South American vegetable).  There are no right or wrong answers, just more desirable answers based on personal opinion.  I probably would have to think about what her favorite color is, but, I can tell you which family members she expects to buy gifts for every holiday (ie aunts/uncles, grandparents, siblings, step-siblings...).  I also can tell you what she would think about her mate using her toothbrush.  Some of these may sound stupid but think about how much you can learn from someone about their answers. Each answer forces them to talk, explain and open up.  After you ask enough questions that deal with certain underlying issues you can start to look for lies and inconsistencies.  She was very consistent and her answers were really captivating. She did not try to sleep with me.  That was classic, on one side of the equasion she has morals, or she has a really good manual about pulling a scam. She asked me a question that may be honest or it is just from the aforementioned manual that is really good. She asked me if she came to the US and didn't like it if I would be willing to move back to Ukraine with her. The final reason is this.  I am a very unconventional individual.  If you were to see me at work you would never guess I am who I am at home.  If you were to see me with friends you would never guess I have the job I have.  It takes me a long time to open up my personality to people I don't know. People that I have been able to open up with have been my friends for years. The more I have to lose (aka a future wife) the harder it is for me to be myself.  I had no problems being myself around her.  I have only met about 5 people in my life that I have been able to do that with.  For example, She chased me all over the apartment with a slime covered spoon because I was making the universal gagging/make myself puke symbol while she was eating shrimp.  

I have already put in for the K-1. I will be going over in may to see how things go. If they go well then I will go over two months after that.  Hopefully by then she will be able to come to the US. I plan on taking all 90 days allowed by the K-1.  If it doesn't work out then I don't have to marry her.  I have no intention to send her back to the Ukraine broke and heart broken if it doesn't work out.

That is my story.... kinda long.  Tell me what yall think.

... in response to I did most of these things., posted by dandy on Feb 21, 2003

..so I will tell you. If you're going back multiple times than good for you. Use the full 90 days? Double good for you. Many don't you know. Just take it slow and remember that many who took your path have failed and they were as sure as you are. More than have succeeded I suspect. Also remember that success isn't measured by bringing one home. Sounds like you did some basic research, thats more than many do. At least you have some idea of what you're getting into.

I'm still amazed anyone would commit to a marrriage in such a short time, thats what your doing by filing a K1 and you'll be required to so state to the INS. After all, you're planning "till death do us part" here right? It also amazes me that one could find *two* people who'll do it. I mean what are the odds under "normal" circustances? Sometimes makes one wonder what the motivation is behind it, on both sides.

I'm curious, what exactly do you mean by "I have no intention to send her back to the Ukraine broke and heart broken if it doesn't work out."

Gonna make her a fugitive instead? Or let her claim abuse to adjust her status? Hmmm...maybe you don't know what yer getting into.

... in response to Ok, you asked...., posted by LP on Feb 22, 2003

If it doesn't work out here I will make sure that when she goes home she will be financially stable enough until she can get a new job.

... in response to Ok, you asked...., posted by LP on Feb 22, 2003

I saw that statement to mean that if things didn't work out that he would send her home w/ some cash and help her get her feet on the ground while parting on good terms.

... in response to do you only see the dark side?, posted by Stan B on Feb 22, 2003

.....I look at all sides Stan. The difference is the bright side has never bit anyone and needn't be worried about.

... in response to do you only see the dark side?, posted by Stan B on Feb 22, 2003

Thats how I read it--was that what you meant?I would do the same!

... in response to I did most of these things., posted by dandy on Feb 21, 2003

Good post!You sound like you have done some considerable research.Good luck in May!I will be going in April to Sevastapol so we may cross paths.I lived on 12th Ave for 11 years.Worked for the local airline.Drop me an email ,maybe we can share some more info.I am going to hire an Immigration Atty
so I know the paperwork is done right.  cs

... in response to Re: I did most of these things., posted by CS767 on Feb 21, 2003

You mean the K-1 paperwork?

You don't need an attorney for that ... honest... it is pretty straight forward. Save your money for the areas you will need it.

I am the world's worst "form" person... and I did it.

Drop me a line if you want a copy of my app...

... in response to Re: Re: I did most of these things., posted by MarkInTx on Feb 22, 2003

Mark,
 Thanks for the post ,I would love to get a copy of the forms.I have tried over the net and it wont download.My email is in my profile.Thanks

... in response to I did most of these things., posted by dandy on Feb 21, 2003

Sounds all good to men Dandy. The more information that you give the less ammunition the dissenters have to point the finger at.

That is why my position is to not criticize someone but only ask questions until one really knows the story. Then, if one thinks that the guy needs to rethink things ---- let him know.

Dandy, have you gotten much flack from anyone you know at home over doing this?

... in response to Re: I did most of these things., posted by thesearch on Feb 21, 2003

I have received no flack from anyone. The Attorney who works in the Immigration department offered his representation, told me his concern and gave me all the forms.  Work is very supportive and has adjusted my billable hour requirement so I can make the trips to Ukraine.  It was my mothers idea in the first place, my brother married a chinese immigrant, and my friends emailed me everyday I was in Ukraine to see how things were going.  My two best friends who are both girls have offered to take time off work when she first comes over so that when I have to go back to work they can spend the days with her (if she wants too).  When I go over in May several of my friends asked if they could travel with me.  I told them I would think about it..... I don't know if that is a good idea.  What do yall think?  I am lucky that I have been met with so much encouragement.

... in response to I did most of these things., posted by dandy on Feb 21, 2003

I aggree w/ Yoe, all what he posted is very true, ,  and what you did seems so far to have worked well for you. All advice here is that, advice. Live your life how you have to and don't look here for a pat on the back, it doesn't come that often and shouldn't be important. Weigh over the advice and choose what your head tells ya, and hopefully you'll use your thinking head.  :)  ( My other one ALWAYS got me in trouble,,, well, most of the time) ;)

... in response to Re: I did most of these things., posted by Stan on Feb 21, 2003

LOL I hear yah about the whole other head getting ya in trouble.  That is one thing that makes this seem to work so well.  I can't get caught up in the physicality of this relationship.  I don't even think of the whole sex aspect.  When I think of her I think of her intelligence the thought that she is absolutely bueatiful rarely crossess my mind when I think of wanting to see her again. I also think that this is a big plus for me/us.

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

when you're off grass.( just kidding). Good post Yoe.

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

Very informative and insightful, Joe. I want to add a few thoughts.

One of the biggest challenges in this adventure is logic and pragmatism. We're talking about three of the most powerful and unlogical forces at work here. Love, lust and need of survival.

See the following scenario:

Take one well established 45 year old western man. Then take an underdeveloped country filled with pragmatic women, or call it survivors.

Add a dream in the head of the man. A dream of unspoiled women, a dream of being loved without a lot of buts, maybe a dream of past times when women did certain things and men other things.

Then add a dream in the head of the women. Yes, a dream of love, but also a dream of giving your children a future, a dream where you can afford to eat what you want, a dream of a nice house (like in the American movies), a dream of doing something else than just surviving.

Then add 3 weeks vacation to this man every year. Send him to this country for 2 of those weeks.

He's astonished. First he sees bottomless poverty. People without legs, women with half-dead children begging for money, old people with their backs higher than their heads and strange things growing out of their faces. And there are just miles and miles of them!

After the first impression has easened the man feels like a snack and maybe a little shopping. He's amazed by the low prices. He could virtually buy the whole country. He feels like a king!

After one week in this country the sun appears. He goes out on the street to enjoy the weather. *SHABOOM* 20 year old women in mini-skirts. They're not fat, they're not ugly and most important they're forth comming. As a small hottie passes by, the man looks at a striving woman at his own age. His eyes moves from the mature woman to his hand full of dollar bills. With one week of vacation left he quickly runs after the 20 year old. He asks if she want to join him for a coffee. She accepts.

The man is very lucky. After only one week he found someone he thinks is right for him. She's sooo gorgeous, SEXY and nice. She even says that she really likes him. He's in heaven!

She sees an established knight in shining armor. Ok, the armor is a tad grey, but she can learn to appriciate that. Their expectations "clicks" and more so. What about their hearts? What will their hearts do with only 1 + 1 week at hand?

For me it took one second to get interested in my wife and one year to love her. I had to fight one year before she got really interested in me and then one month to love me. I spent four months in Ukraine before marriage. She spent one month here. From when we first met till we married 18 months passed. Ok, we're all different, but you can't rush your heart into your tight schedule. You must make your schedule around your heart.

If you think that you can find your dream woman by just browsing the web, think again. Your brain might be very pragmatic and set on criterias (height, hair color, education), but it's your heart that should take the decision. Your heart looks for much deeper things. Things that are revealed when two souls meet face to face. If you meet the women before writing you can speak with your heart when you write them. Without it you're just writing a fantasy.

So Joe, my added recommandations would be:

1. Men, make sure you get more vacation than three weeks. Make a budget and take an extended leave without pay or something. Otherwise forget it. It's not for you. We're not talking talking about a calculated risk here. We're talking stupid!

2. Begin the adventure by going to Ukraine just to get aclimiated to the country. Hook up with a guide, meet people, but don't date. Look, but don't touch. The country by itself is big enough impression. Combined with mini-skirts on the streets it's just plain dynamite! :-)

3. Go home and THINK if you really want to do this.

4. Set wide criterias for what kind of women you want to meet. Remember that your heart doesn't follow your brain's criterias. Be flexible! E.g. my wife is 2 years older than me. Normally I wouldn't look for someone older than me.

5. Go back to Ukraine and date, date, date and date some more. If you must write before dating write only a very short time (Don't write a fantasy!).

6. Write those women you "clicked" with during dating for some period.

7. Narrow down your choices and continue courtship with writing, phone contact and visits. Make sure you live with the selected woman for some time before the final decision. Leave sex out of it as long as possible. You don't want to add another confusing ingredient (lust) to it all.

Of course there are many ways to Rome and we're all different. This is just food for thought.

So Joe, was the post long enough for ya? Just so you know: When I say "you" in the post I don't necessarily mean you Yoe, of course unless you really want it to be Yoe. Now... My wife sure won't like me giving you so much attention, so I got to go. ;-)

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

Yoe,
You gave very good advice for those that like to go about things with caution, or like to do things by the book. As most people know there isn't any method that will produce a sure thing.
For those who aren't afraid to take a risk from time to time
I would suggest they make plans to visit the FSU as if on a vacation and at the same time be prepared in the event you meet a girl that strikes your fancy. Having an agency to work with isn't a bad ideal at all, but some of the best girls feel ashaimed to use an agency as it is seen as something for desperate women there by many ladies. The chat room thing is a good place to find girls to meet before going.
I went to Moscow just to have fun and see something exotic and used no agency and met my wife just by striking up a conversation with her, and of the 3 weeks I was there I met many many nice girls on my own. My cousin who in the beggining used an agency for his first trip and met many ladies but none  that impressed him, and after that first trip he realized that the agency thing was something he didn't need, anyway the lady he's married to now he found while in a chat room prior to one of his trips there.(along with other girls that he weeded out once there) He and I both did the K-1 to see them on our turf. I married my wife and filed the papers before the 90 days were over but, my cousin waited until the last minute and had to file the I-130. Taking K-1 papers is also a great idea because I waisted a lot of time getting this together, so I suggest taking everything you need and if anything leave them there with a friend. ( I made many friends there )

I'm not saying Yoe is wrong, but for those who have that spur of the moment kind of charactor I see nothing wrong with going there and if you meet a girl that really strikes your fancy then bring her here on the K-1 and do your judging here where it counts. The cost of this method is equal to, or less then the agency route and the many flights there to do your research. Just don't promise them anything but a vacation here, if it feels right then you can go for it without spending exta thousands.

Yes the K-1 is being abused, but that's if things don't work out. Hey if they were aloud to come here like other Europe countries then it wouldn't be this way.

Yoe you gave very good advice and I'm not trying to step on your toes, just thought I would give this info to those that like to go off the beaten path.
Mike

... in response to after deep consideration......, posted by yoe on Feb 21, 2003

If you bring the K-1 paperwork with and you do decide to fill it out, there's one piece that you will need that's not on a form......  She needs to write a letter about her intent to marry you within the 90 days and sign it.  Don't forget to bring that back with you (like I did :-)

... in response to Re: after deep consideration......, posted by Jski on Feb 21, 2003

This must be something brand new. It was not a part of the process when I brought Anna here a while ago. Our experience was that the INS folks wanted only to see exactly what they specified. Nothing else mattered. Round peg in a round hole process.

... in response to Re: Re: after deep consideration......, posted by rojak on Feb 21, 2003

It's straight from the INS site and the I-129 instructions:

5. What documents do you need to prove you can
legally marry?

Copies of evidence that you and your fiancé(e) have
personally met within the last two years, or if you have
never met within the last two years, provide a detailed
explanation and evidence of the extreme hardship or
customary, cultural or social practices which have
prohibited your meeting; and

Original statements from you and your fiancé(e) whom you
plan to marry within 90 days of his/her admission, and
copies of any evidence you wish to submit to establish
your mutual intent.