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I've just experienced something kind of wierd. Now normally I don't post anything of a personal(involving my ladies) nature on here. This is a great place for travel tips but I'm not sure I trust a lot of people here's relationship advice. I've got other support groups for that. But this is very interesting and to me it seems so very, very Russian.

Over a year ago a nice, young, Russian lady answered my ad. We wrote and talked to each other for about 6 months and I planned to meet her and some other girls last summer. But she moved to Korea to work just before I arrived in Russia. Don't bother telling me about Russian working girls in Korea. I probably know more about it than most. I was travelling through Korea anyhow so we made arrangements to meet. I screwed up our meeting in Seoul.

After this her mother contacts me and wants to know what happened. I'd talked to her mother on the phone and we exchanged a couple of letters. So after June my lady and I were writing and talking regularly again. We were planning another try at meeting. But it was complicated for a variety of reasons. Then after a short silence I get a letter stating that she's met a nice guy and she's worried about hurting me. I tell her go for it because a person in your arms beats writing letters any day.

Then I get a letter saying that she's moved home again. I say great, I'm planning on being in Russia for New Years. I'll fly to Siberia to meet you. There was a very long silence. So I made my plans and spent my time near Vladivostok instead. Next I get a letter from her sister.

In this letter the sister explains that she wrote the last couple of letters to me. It seems that my lady never moved home. She met a guy in Korea and they are going to have a baby in the spring. My lady cut contact with me because she thought her new man would be angry if he knew. But she also didn't want to hurt me. So she made her sister try to pretend that she was my lady. But sis got tired of this quickly and told me everything. So now I'm exchanging letters with the sister!

Now for the cynics amongst you this wasn't a scam. This girl never asked me for anything except attention. But it does illustrate a very common problem with Russians and the truth. Even Russians warn me about this.

... in response to How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

My wife's aunt wrote to me the whole time posing as my wife.  She wouldn't let my wife write anything, because she said my wife was stupid and would screw it up.  It pissed me off at first when I found out, because this aunt of hers couln't spell or speak English worth anything, my wife knew more English then she did.  But this aunt thought she was better then anyone else because she looks like Cher (Ooooh wow, that's something to be proud of).  But anyway, my wife and I talked about it, and it wasn't my wife's fault, she tried to communicate with me, it's just that they wouldn't let her.  Needless to say, we don't communicate with those idiots anymore.

... in response to I had a similar situation, posted by Jeff on Jan 31, 2003

Looks like Cher! Before or after all the surgery? But seriously, I would've been upset if I'd run into the same situation. Lucky for you that you and your wife were able to sort things out. That could have been a relationship breaking situation.

... in response to How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

Well Zink, the situation you have described is not without precedent. I myself have contacted ladies who replied informing me that, since posting their profile, they met someone; but immediately after this, they've tried to introduce me to one of their friends. This has happened twice (in one case the friend's profile was also on the same website, and I had her on my hit-list already!)
One lady who was particularly attractive and had attracted a lot of mail also informed me that although she had stopped using the agency herself, she had assisted her friend (who was receiving no responses to her profile) by re-posting her profile and pics and forwarding all the incoming mail to her friend to follow up.. "my friend is unavialable, but my name is...etc."

I once arrived in Kiev with a list of meetings pre-arranged and the one who arrived from Lugansk was not the one I'd been corresponding with! Even her name was different! She was quite attractive and pleasant although her English was very poor. She blamed the agency for mixing/meddling with correspondence, but who knows?

Your situation is obviously more complicated, I'm sure that girl meant well but a guy on the doorstep is more real than a long-distance correspondent, no matter what. You obviously got to her enough to make her go to greater lengths than usual to let you down gently. No doubt she gave a good report to her sister about you. So if her sister is also serious about the venture, and she appeals to you, why not? If they share similar character/upbringing/family background/values etc, she must be worth consideration...

... in response to How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

To Zink..You know my story. I broke up with a RW for the same fact.She was just incapable of telling the truth. It seems that this a real big problem with Russian women. Even her father had trouble with her. I went to Russia for 6 days to clear it up. She arrange for her father to tell me in a very round about way that she was with another man. My response to him was "good luck ".
It seems that while the RW will complain about the Russian man always lying in a social dating situation they have no trouble doing it them self.But there is hope. I do read some biodata on the some of the websites and the ladies are specific about that they don't want a man to lie.I suspect that they are now in the marriage websites because the Russian man that they had thought was going to be theirs has left them for one of his other "only" one.
Moral: Live and learn.

... in response to Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Watcher on Jan 30, 2003

Well, honest boys... I'm reading your "correspondence" here... Not all women are like this. It is very easy to judge someone, but seeing the situation from outside, you'll NEVER understand it. You have to imagine Russian women  (men too!!!!!!) living since childhood in conditions of OFFICIAL LIE. (For example, I remember myself at the age 5... My parents had 4 children, I was the youngest in the family. My parents both worked, and it was very difficult to get the "place" for child in the kinder-garden. So, my mother used to make some "tricks" with control on TBC-infection - it was always "positive", and my sister and me could get a place in the kinder-garden for TBC-infected children. It was the ONLY possibility!!! My mother couldn't stay at home with children - father's salary was too small for family of 6... At the age of 5 I learned to keep silence about my mother lie - it was necessary to lie!!!)

Yes, children were tough to say the truth, ...but reality was teaching them to lie: all ideas of Soviet system were based on lie, ... but it looked nice and true "from outside"...
During 70 years people lived in conditions of "double moral". Russian men, mentioned here... Do you think they are different from Russian women, growing in the same conditions?

... in response to Re: Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Marinka on Jan 31, 2003

Marinka,

The "dialectic," is only enjoyable, for those who haven't experienced it's "merits."

I for one, appreciated your thoughts & experiences. Perhaps: Ukranians, Serbs, Poles, Croats, Ethnic Germans, Lithuanians, Estonians, Russians, Slovenians, Slovaks, Czechs, Hungarians, Latvians etc., might have had a real choice in '45, if it wasn't for our duplicity.  Or, at least, a museum  for their suffering, in Washington D.C., too.

Thank you, so much for your candor. May a real Ukranian "Patriot" bless your land, shortly.

Best Regards,

Vaughn

Ps: Now, the obvious query: do you have a pretty friend/sister, who thinks like you?  

... in response to Re: Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Marinka on Jan 31, 2003

I can't speak for the others, but I don't really believe that Russians are any better or worse than other people. I've seen my share of bad relationships here, those of friends and neighbours. We aren't innocent either. Not all RWs are bad, just as not all are good. But it seems to me that Russians are more secretive and less open than Canadians. And also less offended by sexual affairs or doing what is necessary to live. If a man has puritanical ideals I would recommend staying away from Russia.

And in my case I'm not complaining that this girl found another guy. I was with another woman at the same time. I just wish she could have told me straight out about it. I let her know about my other girl. But then maybe I hurt her by doing that and she didn't want to repay the favour. I am sad that we had to end our friendship because she's afraid her boyfriend will be jealous.

... in response to Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Watcher on Jan 30, 2003

[This message has been edited by Marinka]

This message was deleted

... in response to Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Watcher on Jan 30, 2003

You know most of my stories too. But this is pretty recent and has me a little mixed up. No real harm done, but man it's giving me a wierd feeling. She never broke any promises and I'm not angry with her. She was the person who helped me the most to get over my first failed love affair. I think that's why she was scared of hurting me. She got to know me at one of the lowest points in my life and still liked me. She was a kind and sweet girl and that's what I'll remember about her.

Fidelity is an interesting subject amongst Russians. Europeans in general I guess, but I know Russians better than other Europeans. Many RWs have been hurt by the infidelity of the men there. But they aren't innocent either. Who do you think the guys were cheating with? I've had long discussions about the subject with several Russians, both men and women.

All of this just makes it harder to commit to the lady I am with right now. She's everything a man could want but I'm just not in a marrying state of mind. Luckily neither is she. I was happier when I was innocent and naive. Now I know too much. Pretty soon I'll end up like LP(he, he). Won't be like Yoe 'cause he's way too happy.

... in response to Re: Re: How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 31, 2003

If you are not ready yet, you're not ready.  Time will change that.  But in regards to RW and fidelity, I feel there are many women there who are completely willing and able to be true to one GOOD man.  If a guy does his homework and scam-proofs himself etc., he can find any number of women that would be faithful..  My opinion of course.

Good Luck..

... in response to How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

The last thing they were gonna do was hurt some man's feelings.  LPdamn those girls were hot!

... in response to How Russian is this???, posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

Not only does it illustrate Russians and the truth.
It does illustrate women and the truth, also some men and the truth.
At one time, the Fonz was there to sort these things out.
Today, we got Yoe and LP, luckily.

... in response to Re: How Russian is this???, posted by micha1 on Jan 30, 2003

.... Monsewer...err, I think. I suppose Zinkman could look at it two ways. One, she was excercising discretion for the sake of his well being or two, she was unacceptably lying through her teeth. Personally, I view a lie as a lie. Honesty is better no matter the consequences. Course, I'm not known for excessive displays of tact, a twisted form of the truth. In this case the lie was compounded by her sister. If Zink finds happiness with the sister, does that make amends? I tell ya, if I think about it for more than a few minutes blood will come shootin outta my nose.

My experience is that FSU folks in general are not adverse to fudging the truth for any number of rationalized reasons, much more so than western culture. Comes from years of dealing with the Soviet system. Zink gave her the go ahead, he put his truth first for her sake. Can what she did be considered reciprocating? I dunno, thats for him to decide. Me? I'd hunt her down like a dog. ;-)

... in response to Merci....., posted by LP on Jan 30, 2003

I've got mixed feelings about all this. I was always taught to seek the truth and only speak the truth. I follow your method of honesty no matter the costs. But what really is the truth. The older I get the less certain I am that there is an absolute truth. I prefer to believe that she hid the truth in an effort to keep from hurting me. Noble sentiment. But I prefer the quick clean pain of truth than the slow festering pain of lies.

As for the sister... She tried to lie to protect her sister. Shows loyalty and I admire that. That total loyalty and willingness to do anything for family and friends is one thing I love about Russians. To hell with the consequences just help the person. Interesting attitude. But she couldn't do it for very long. Shows that she has some honesty too. My lady never intended to hook me up with her sister. The sister just liked what she read from me and acted on her own.

As for hunting her down... Why? We never made any promises. We never met! There was nothing but a shared fantasy that never came true. She knew I was going to Russia to meet other girls. Why shouldn't she be able to meet other men? If she had sworn eternal faithfulness and then got pregnant with another guy, it wouldn't be pretty. I don't get mad often but when I do... But she found a reality that was better than waiting on a dream. She told me that she had met this guy and didn't know who she wanted more me or him. But the winner will always be whoever is closest. Through her sister I wished her luck, love and happiness and said that I just wished she had had the courage to say goodbye before she left.

I'd given up on My lady months ago, when the sister started her impersonations. The whole revelation by her sister was the big shocker. I don't even know which sister I'm corresponding with! She's got a big family and half are already married. I don't even know all their names. I'm writing to her more out of curiousity than any real hope of finding a wife. Everthing I do is a learning experience.

LP, one thing you have to be careful about when asking for the truth, you better be prepared for the answers. I just spent 3 weeks in Vladivostok with a great girl. I told her how much I valued the truth and then I asked some tough questions. Her answers shook me up more than a little. And when she asked the same questions of me I had trouble replying. I want the truth from people but it isn't so easy for me to open myself up for them to look at.

... in response to Re: Merci....., posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

....movie line go?..."You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" lol, brings to mind someone here.

I know Zinkman, I know. The truth, well, it ain't easy sometimes. As I recall you be a fairly young guy. If the truth is blurred for you now, just wait until down the road apiece. As for huntin her down, of course not, I was kiddin. Besides, my huntin list is so long now I'll be dead before I get 'em all. (lol..they'll pay, they'll ALL pay!)

About the clean, quick pain of truth verus the festering of a lie, I completely agree. Unfortunately we all get to experience both kinds on a regular basis. Fwiw I'm always ready for the truth even though it hurts, and I can give it as well as I get. No other way to conduct business, imho.

Vlad eh? A great place, brings back memories of my very first FSU contact. She was so young and beautiful, I was so cautious. I killed it because of her age, turned out she was the real deal. Still in touch, she married a Japanese guy older than me and is happy as a clam years later. Oh well....

Move on and make the best of it, as I see you've already done. You've always struck me as a pretty insightful guy so I know this won't slow you down one bit. We both know it'll happen for you, your particular truth is out there somewhere.

... in response to Hows that....., posted by LP on Jan 31, 2003

How many years later? What would be a close estimate of their age difference?

... in response to Re: Hows that....., posted by thesearch on Jan 31, 2003

...it'd be goin on 4 years now and he's 24 years older than she.

... in response to Lets see...., posted by LP on Jan 31, 2003

So, one of those that pushes the limits. She could have split two years ago.

... in response to Re: Merci....., posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

That was a post-full.

You're particularly correct in so many ways about being asked "the same questions"... by her and the "trouble replying".  That crap does work both ways and it forces some real serious introspection and reconsideration of one's posture in a relationship in the what to expect dept.

As far as the sister thing goes, it's quite bizarre and interesting, what the heck, I think most of us have had one of those 'sister' fantasies (lol) at one time or another, but this one without the benefit of meeting either... strange twist.  She could actually end up being the best of the litter, and probably better as a potential mate anyways.  Since you have a working relationship up to this point, (and had limited emotional -if any- involvement with the other one originally), it might prove very interesting and beneficial just to play it out.

But it does kinda suck that you were conversing with an unknown quantity in hindsight, that burns a bit; (and would piss me off for a while, if not forever at the original woman. Hell I'd marry her sister just to get even! :^).

Cheers.

... in response to Re: Re: Merci....., posted by BrianN on Jan 31, 2003

I've got some regrets about what happened. But I'm not really upset with the girl. She was a great comfort to me when I needed someone. I don't think that she did this deliberately. I can forgive someone for unforseen circumstances, I just don't forgive deliberate maliciousness. I don't think the girl was a bad person. She just didn't handle a tricky situation the way I would have. It would have saved me a lot of worries if I'd known the truth before my last trip.

One reason I prefer to only meet one or two girls at a time is because of this. What do you say if you contact several good women at a time? Most don't want to share their man. I put this girl on hold because I'd met a great woman in Vladivostok. I have no reason to be angry because she quit waiting for me. I'm a simple, straight forward guy. I'm no good at dating more than one girl at a time.

I just thought that this would be a good warning to some who want to believe letters are enough. I lost her because I wasn't there when I should have been. A man who chases two rabbits ends up empty handed. I'm just lucky that I caught one of my rabbits in Russia. I believe in total honesty in a relationship. It's going to be fun explaining all this to her.

... in response to Re: Merci....., posted by Zink on Jan 30, 2003

therefore there is no truth. I say-everyone is a liar!
I also say, "I am the most honest person I know, and I do not trust myself". Hey if you cannot trust your president, your minister or 11:00 news-who can you trust......
do not fret. Truth is as subjective as nature of Russian Women. Remember it is not the women it is the culture.....So look for what you need to 'synergize' you and some one you can also inspire-that is the best you can hope for. If you find an honsest women, do not tell anybody-you will be locked up and probed-
Joe

... in response to Nietzsche claims that no truth is obsole..., posted by yoe on Jan 31, 2003

Yoe, your more than a little crazy but at times what you say makes sense. I'm sure there are some who'll think I should be locked up for saying that. But if they knew my family they'd understand my tolerance of insanity. But you really got to do something about your LP fetish. That's a little disturbing.

... in response to Nietzsche claims that no truth is obsole..., posted by yoe on Jan 31, 2003

nt

... in response to obsolute...nt, posted by yoe on Jan 31, 2003

But I liked the concept about truth being obsolete... made me chuckle while I contemplated the ramifications of it...

... in response to Absolute   ... n/t, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 31, 2003

The ramifications.
After too much Absolute, one becomes obsolete.

... in response to Re: Absolute   ... n/t, posted by micha1 on Jan 31, 2003

BTW, I don't know if you have ever seen the Absolut Vodka site, but its pretty cool:

www.absolut.com

... in response to Re: Absolute   ... n/t, posted by micha1 on Jan 31, 2003

nt

... in response to obsolute...nt, posted by yoe on Jan 31, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...lol, I think yer on to sumthin Yoey.  Absolute, it's absolute. Take that sheep and grape jello outta yer mouth. ;-)

... in response to No truth is obsolete?..., posted by LP on Jan 31, 2003

what do you except......I mean expect..
Joe