Print Page - Conservative gentlemen and a little more

I've got a lot of comment to my recent posts, and I will try to answer and develop my thoughts a little more.

It's true that the Scandinavian countries have gone a third way between Capitalism and Communism. Big parts of our industry has been nationalised, railways, telecommunication, elementary school and higher education have been run by the government. What we have achieved is a very good dispersion of wealth. We have probably the best social security system in the world (together with the other Scandinavian countries) All education has been free and everybody has been together in the same schools. It has given everybody the same possibilities in a higher degree than for example in the USA. Because we all have our education from the public school with the same curriculum, we are a very integrated nation with little crime and coherent culture. The nationalised industry made it possible to create jobs where we needed new jobs. Instead of moving people, we moved jobs. We have got a warmer and more friendly society.

However, there are weaknesses in this system that now are becoming more and more apparent. There will take to much time to write more about it now.

Dave you are claiming that every man makes his own future. I don't believe it is so simple. Most of us on this board are searching for or have found a Russian/Ukrainian woman. Most of those ladies are poor. Are they that because they want it themselves? Because they are lazy? Do you want a lazy and listless lady? I'm quite convinced it's not the truth. They have been living in political system that gave them few possibilities whatever they did. So if you agree with me in this, we can agree that what society you are living in also is important for how your life will be. Therefore like Joe wrote, maybe not all of us have got the same possibilities here in this world, and maybe this has something to do with the political system in our countries.

It looks to me that most of you gentlemen are very conservative. I've have over time noticed that most of you are republicans, and I've began to wonder if that is the reason why you are looking to Russia for a bride. Maybe because so many of you are stuck to the old traditional values which you no longer can find in your own country, you look to an even more conservative country for wives?

And then to Jski. I agree with you, However, why do you think it's possible for a man with an ordinary income to find a much younger, more beautiful and more educated woman, if it wasn't for the fact that he could offer her a better life also economically? Do you really believe that money/standard of living/security doesn't play any role in this game? Why do you think these ladies want to meet a man from Western Europe, Australia or the USA? If you have enough money you don't need to think about them. If you have too little, you will think about them always.

Haroshij

... in response to Conservative gentlemen and a little more, posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

I think the key is "opportunity"! If you live in a society that provides opportunity, then to reject it is a choice to be a failure. That is the key. In the former FSU countries, there is mainly opportunity through corruption. That is how you become filthy rich there. Hard work is not as rewarded, or as highly regarded among many me. Many people seem to be waiting for someone to take care of them. I know two men there who complain, but do absolutely nothing to find work. We are largely conservative. Many Republicans, and many ex-military men. I myself lived in Europe while attending school, and also was in the ARMY; serving overseas.

Steve

... in response to Re: Conservative gentlemen and a little ..., posted by Quasimoto on Jan 3, 2003

Hi Dave,
Yes, you have a very good point. I see that America gives a lot of opportunities to people living there. I remember for about one and a half year ago when we visited my wife's family in Russia, we talked to a teacher. She was very little optimistic on behalf of Russia. We will need a new generation of people so we can get rid of the old thoughts and attitudes from the communist period, she said. The communist period did something with the way people were thinking and killed initiative.

So what we agree about then is that some systems gives little opportunities for people and even kill their initiative and shape the way they are thinking. However, maybe that is why you have those experiences from your own country. Maybe groups of people in America in reality have fewer opportunities? Maybe there are something in their local societies that kills initiative and form the way they are thinking? Maybe the Americium melting pot doesn't give equal opportunities for everybody?

Don't think that that is unique for your country. There are a lot of reports from my country that tells the same. Children from educated homes are more stimulated to get an higher education than children from the working class.

However, what we can agree about is that there are people who has a special gift to exploit the system. We see it very clearly here in Norway with our good social system. We are getting fewer and fewer people working and more and more people on different kind of pensions, even rather young people.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: Conservative gentlemen and a lit..., posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

[This message has been edited by KenC]

Haroshij,
You said, "Maybe the Americium melting pot doesn't give equal opportunities for everybody?" and then, "Children from educated homes are more stimulated to get an higher education than children from the working class." Isn't this a matter of breeding? The basic "survival of the fitest"? The opportunutites are there for everyone, but only a small portion CHOOSE to be motivated enough to take advantage of them. That motivation usually comes from values learned in the family.
-
I came from a very blue collar family but chose a different path for myself. I was determined at a very early age to breakout from that level of lifestyle. Not that there is anything wrong with middleclass, I just wanted more. Subsiquently, my children are now achiving successes at a much higher level than the average family members. My standards for success have become their's. A natural progression as I see it.
KenC

... in response to equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

You make an interesting point. Although middle class is no real problem for me. Lower middle would bother me. My case in point if I may. My granfather finished the second grade and was a laborer much of his life. Hid daugher, my mother, finished college, and became a teacher. With teacher salaries then, we could barely be considered middle class. (my Mom and Dad divorced when I was young, something good folks did not do in small towns) But I say this, each and every grand child of my grandfather, finished college and beyond. (My grandfather had one othe daughter and a son that had kids) Each of them, all 5 of us have post graduate degrees, and some like myself have two post graduate degrees. We are no longer middle class, but I think we brought my grandfather's strong determined work eithic with us. And yes with that most anyone can make it here. It may not be easy for everyone, and harder for some, but most anyone can make it here.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: equal opportunities, posted by ChrisNJ on Jan 3, 2003

yep you hit that one on the head. But I have a twist for you. Check out 3rd and 4th generation Asians here. Those from Vietnam for example. In my city, many are in gangs, drive similar "gang bang" cars, and the police will tell you they do not fear going into housing projects as much as they fear going into many asian neighborhoods. Many of them I am sorry and sad to say, are more, for lack of a better word, more "americanized" as I was told by the police recently. I can remember meeting most Asians in my city 20 years ago. The were the most polite people and I enjoyed my interations with them. Their children were later very much the same. The grandchildren seem a bit different.
I have one friend from China, who wants to send her child back to China for the last two years of highschool, because she says he has learned too many bad habbits here, and is now lazy, disrespects her and her husband, (something foreign to them)

Just a thought.
Robert d.

... in response to equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

Hi KenC,

I agree partly with you. I'm having the same experiences as you. I grew up in a family where nobody had higher education. Not because of lack of abilities, but because everybody was needed to get the daily bread. I worked hard myself and got a good education and a good position. However when I look back I see that not all my friends from childhood had the same stimulation as I to make something more out their lives. Their families didn't stimulate them in the same way as mine. So as you say the opportunities are there, but I don't think they are available in the same degree for everybody. You make this to an individualistic approach, I see that the system works different for different groups of people.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: equal opportunities, posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

Haroshij,
"So as you say the opportunities are there, but I don't think they are available in the same degree for everybody." It is aways easier to follow the status quo than to fight it. No one said it would be easy, but the opportunities are AVAILABLE. Again, isn't that the natural order of life? Greater rewards go to those who choose to put forth a greater effort. Just as it is possible for a downward mobility too, with a lacking amount of effort to maintain status quo. Out of 5 children in our family, we make up a perfect bell shape curve, one child was very successful, one was a failure and three fall into various sections of the moderate range. I think the system is working well.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: equal opportunities, posted by KenC on Jan 3, 2003

Intereting point, and I agree we may start an argument if we continue, but I offer this. In many poor areas of America, the hill country of Tenn, and West Virginia, there are many non minorities that have had difficulty making it in the main stream. The reasons are too many to speak of. I agree as to opportunities being better here than anywhere else in the world. But if you look at the history of much of the western world, you do not find the poverty issue as much an issue as you do in those countries that had a history of slavery and its aftermath. (US for example) Much of central america experiences little difference economically and educationally, between non minorities and minorities. South Africa, is another example of institutionalized issues causing long term difficulties for their society. It goes back to the legacy I mentioned, which for some is hard to think of, but if you think of countries like England and France who have long had minorities of the same types as the US, but no slavery, their experience of late and even in the past was very different. Literacy rates in the southern US among minorities are about the same as for non minorities in many of the poor states, like West Virgina. I suspect some of the reasons are the same. In southern Mississippi, if you speak to almost any african american, you will find they are just one generation from share croppers, and only two generations from real discrimination (Jim Crow and the like) so I do not think it is hard to understand why they have not historically done well. And it also explains the growth in the last 20 years of a larger and ever more prosperous African American middle class. It is the middle class of any community that contributes most to what is best in our society. I suggest to you that in 20 years from now, as the percentage of African American population continues to decrease in America, and the population of other minorities, Asians and Hispanics continues to rise a, we will see and end to much of this kind of discussion. It is not a bad or forbidden discussion, mind you, as some would say.
One last note, I wonder who 30 years ago could have predicted the impact of drugs on large part of our society. It is intereting that it is more of a plague in minority communties, even in American Indian communities. I worked in social services for a while many years ago, and frankly, many hispanics and african americans are on TV because of the violence associated with drugs in urban america, but there are many suburban whites in less populated areas in the business in a less competitive drug market. There is much less crime associated with drugs in those areas as the population is less dense. But one merely needs to watch Jerry Springer, I am sad to say, to see what little difference there is between minorities living on the edge of our properous society, and non minorities. (although I still can not figure out how they ever get anyone to be on that show.
But your post was intereting. And I hope my observations do not upset anyone.

Robert D.

... in response to Conservative gentlemen and a little more, posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

good post. I enjoy hearing about other European countries and have wondered how they fair with high taxes and the like. Just a few observations. If you are an American in the 6 figure plus range, it is not difficult to meet women at all in America. The problem is that most of them are looking at you as a source of retirement, and sometimes offer little in return. I do believe our value system is a bit out of wack. Some of us do long for a more simple time. And you can find such people in smaller towns here, but if you are a relatively high powered job type person,it is hard to take a nice farm girl, (which I personally like) to dinner with a bunch of sharks, if you know what I mean. Sad but true. (I remember John Glen having to fight to keep is wife from sharks in his day in the early space program)
One other observation. It seems that many Scandinavian countries do what the US fails to do. You do not have problems with more than a million illegals entering each year from your southern boarders. You also do not have to deal with an ever increasing foreign policy budget, and foreign aid requests, request from the UN that seem to increase every year. You have also had the luxury of having a rather well educated population for more than 100 years, not to mention a rather small population. I do think we could learn a lot from you guy, however. I have admired your standard of living for years and most importantly your low crime rate.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Conservative gentlemen and a little ..., posted by Robert D on Jan 2, 2003

Hi Robert,

I see you have some good points. The way I understand you is that America has a shortage of attractive women, and those who are really attractive know about it and use it for what it's worth. Did I get it right.

It's true we don't have the same problems with immigration even as I said in an earlier post, we have a big number of Russian immigrant comming. However, I think we mainly have this problem under controll.

Maybe one of the problems with the illegal immigrant in USA is that some people have economical interests in this situation. They can exploit the situation to get cheap labour.

America is rich nation, and should be able to pay their debts to the UN. Norway also gives a lot to foreign aid. The aim set be the UN is that every nation should give 1% of gross national product.

However, if you take a nice country girl from Russia. How can you protect her from the same sharks?

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: Conservative gentlemen and a lit..., posted by Horoshij on Jan 3, 2003

Well in my view there are many beautiful women here in the US. It seems that most of the guys on this board do not like their attitudes. Frankly it seems that to get a beautiful woman after you leave college (because then it is very easy for anyone) a lot depends on your success in life and money you make. The older you are as a man the more money it seems to take to attract and keep attractive women. I think most of the folks on this board believe Russian women, or at least most are different. I have no idea if they are correct in that assumption. I do hope so.
The immogrants that come over our southern boarders are often not well educated, and have no skills. This is not their fault, and frankly I understand why the attempt to come here illegally for a better life. From what I have experienced with Russian women when I visited St. Petersburg, they are well educated, and although there can be language barriers, I found them very able to handle their own in conversation and public gatherings. The could handle their own with the sharks here or at least charm their pants off.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Conservative gentlemen and a..., posted by Robert D on Jan 3, 2003

Yes Robert,

it's also my opinion that many of the ladies you will meet through those agencies are highly educated women. Maybe it's like it was one hundred and more years ago. It was the people with most initiativ and imagination that saw the possibilities and had the courage to emmigrate from their homelands. Even if most of them were poor, they wanted to do something with it. I see the resemblance in this situation. These ladies have the courage to try to do something with their situation.

Russian ladies have learned the hard way. They know how it is to live in society without prosperity. They have managed, and many of them know how to protect themselves.

Maybe you're right, that they will know the how to distinguish between the good guys and the bad ones.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Conservative gentlemen and a little ..., posted by Robert D on Jan 2, 2003

One other note, before I forget, but you guys also do not have a history as we have with dealing with the American Indian, and also slavery. Each has left a legacy in this country to date, that has seen each segment of that population flounder still. In short I think we have more "have nots" in our society, and though we make great leaps to help each element of our population and I think we should be proud of the efforts of our country in the last 20 years, with all of the other drains on our economy, it is difficult I think for us to address many social ills that many of you guys have been able to better address.

Robert D.

... in response to Conservative gentlemen and a little more, posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

True. Its not the "USA" my Svetlana was led to believe it was. (I've known better)
Greed, selfishness, gross commercialization, fat stuck up ugly "cows" and efite snobs mentioned through-out the history of the board..all so apparent.
What is not widely known is that the original settlers of America aspired for a socialist society.
Hence the idiom .. the public domain.
The problem is/was the slobs who don't/didn't want to pull their share.
America is in trouble. Now, it's a dog-pile on the rabbit system that will eventually surrender to the new world order..Mr.666
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Karl

... in response to Conservative gentlemen and a little more, posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

Hello Horoshij

Even though I as a fellow Norwegian don’t agree with you about Norway being a slightly superior country compared with USA or even warmer by any stretch of imagination, I don’t think this is the right forum for discussing it.

But as a long time reader of the board I found your post a little off-track in the way it generalizes the men participating here and in particular about FSU women.

I don’t know what kind of woman you married but I find it somewhat insulting that you make this sweeping generalisation about most women from the FSU being poor and marrying abroad to improve their economic situation.

Neither my Ukraine wife nor I considered herself or her family in Ukraine to be poor in any way when we met, even though their daily life in many respects is less than desirable by our western standards.

It is my final opinion after years of debating this, that the main reason women from “poor” countries look abroad is because of a lack of marriage/family-oriented men at home. This is a side effect of their economic situation. When the outlook for supporting a family is less than desirable any level-headed man will think twice about marrying. And that is what most of these women are searching for; “a level-headed man”.

And I have to partly agree with WmGo about the economic situation in the FSU, it still hasn’t reached the bottom. But I don’t believe as he does, that it is totally hopeless. Although corruption and crime throws sand into the machinery of a free market mechanism it is not ideologically opposed to it or profits as long as it gets it share of it. The negative population growth however is a slowly unveiling tragedy that will keep its cold hand around mother Russia for decennials to come.

A piece of Norwegian wood for the New Year.

Jan

... in response to The main reason RW looks abroad?, posted by R Danneskjold on Jan 1, 2003

The main reason women look abroad.

It is in the woman's nature to look, to be on the lookout,
no matter where they are from.
In 2003 and for the past few years, Internet has made it
easier to look the world over. That's all.

Sure they are looking for love, for security, for everything, because what they want is the whole ball game.
May it be here, over there and anywhere.
We are also, we men, looking for the whole ball game. Why
should they be different than we are.

But they are different from us, in the sense that they
never give up, while we do.

C'est la vie..............

... in response to The main reason RW looks abroad?, posted by R Danneskjold on Jan 1, 2003

Hei igjen,

Jeg fikk ikke sove og ....

Maybe I should comment a little about what you said:

"I find it somewhat insulting that you make this sweeping generalisation about most women from the FSU being poor and marrying abroad to improve their economic situation."

This part of my post was a reply to Dave where he claimed that poor people in America were poor because they chose to be poor. For me it was a dilemma that he looks down on poor people in America, but is searching for ladies in a country with a lot of poor ladies.

I know I stretch this arguement a little, but I still think there is some inconsistency in his arguements and also in yours when you say that those ladies are not poor, but at the same time underline how bad the economical situation is in Russia.

Horoshij

... in response to The main reason RW looks abroad?, posted by R Danneskjold on Jan 1, 2003

Hei Jan,

It's always difficult to make generalization. When we do it it is to try to see trends and trying to make the world a little easier to understand.

I still think we in Norway with our heritage from the social-democratic upbringing in higher degree than in the USA find solution for our problems based common values. I still think they in America are having a more individualistic approach. Think about our tradition about "dugnad" (voluntarily work in benefit for the society). Remember what our earlier prime minister, Gro, said about the importance of the neighbour woman who cared.

In some situation the individualistic attitude can be a force, take into consideration the power and dynamics of the American society. However ladies from the former FSU have an upbringing closer to the Scandinavian model and therefore I think it's easier for them to adapt to Scandinvian countries and even European countries than America. We still have strong ties to each other, especially in the countryside.

I agree with you that finding security and a good husband is important for ladies from the FSU, but I'm still convinced that the perspective of finding a higher standard of living is just as important. I cannot see that it is something wrong in that. Don't we all try to make our lives so good as possible, and if you can combine those things, nothing can be better than that.

I'm not trying to make Norway a better country than for example the USA, but I'm drawing the attention to some differences that can cause problems for new imported brides.

Then about the economical situation in Russia. This year was the first after Soviet Union with a surplus in the national account. After having paid off debt they still had that surplus. Russian industry is going very well and they have now the highest growth in Europe. I'm aware of all the problems. I'm, however, convinced that according to Russian mentality they will solve their problems when they need to do it.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: that is the irony..., posted by Horoshij on Jan 1, 2003

at some time these ideas merge on many levels. Life is spherical not linear. Communism was based on a philosophical not theological premise. Communism gave equal status to the work of men and women-they had different positions but they were revered the same-not so in more traditional conservative environments. Lastly Communism was based on a leave no child behind and all peoples must rise together format. That is why there is such a high literacy rate in many FSU regions. In the conservative agenda it is might makes right and those with, rule those without. This is why Conservatives wants less government-the corporations rule. In communism the liberation of the people is rule-in theory. They at least worked for the common whole not for the conglomerate elite. Again this is theory.
This is why I approve of more government (democratic)-at least we have the illusion to vote in office those who are making all the bad decisions.
I feel we do need strong labor parties here-governed of course. Once George citizenizes the millions of Mexicans, you may see labor movements that make the AFL-CIO nervous...
Joe
"Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat"

... in response to I have written about this in papers...., posted by yoe on Jan 1, 2003

Yoe, I tried hard to understand what you really meant. As you see English is a foreign language to me. Let me take your last statement:
"Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat"

I do not agree. Communism didn't mean liberation of the proletariat. Maybe in its idealogy and in a society which had adopted communism fully, some kind of ideal state. In Russia (and China) the Communist Party looked at themselves as an elite that should educate the people to achieve the real communist society by changing people and transforming the society. Therefore they had the doctrine of the dictatorship of the proletariat. In reality that means that the leadership knows best and should decide.

I'm always afraid of a situation where all power is in on one or in a few hands. Power corrupts. In our democracies we have solved this problem by dividing the power in three, the lawmakers, the judicial system and the executive power (the government).

Corporation rule is best known in facists states as in Italy under Mussolini, and has never promoted a democratic development of society.

However, I agree that strong trade unions are good. I think that is some property left after my social-democratic up-bringing :-).

Haroshij

... in response to As I wrote somewhere below, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 1, 2003

I said old fashioned....you know
when women stayed in the kitchen and kept their mouths shut. When voting was barely a right. When they had little to no choices at all......
But what many do not understand that they must give their wives freedom to enhance these qualities. Many men I have seen hide their wives in their trailers and keep them in Podunk Idaho for their owm little tyranny. My wief gets 100% freedom. We have our designated roles and these do overlap at times. So, it is a very ambiguous thing this tradition....I have been through too many relationships to waste any more time living my wife's life. It is time consuming enough to fill my own day with nonsubjugated folly.

... in response to I did not say traditional..., posted by yoe on Jan 1, 2003

[This message has been edited by Pordzhik]

Old fashioned.

Anybody who wants an Old Fashioned stay in the kitchen and keep her mouth shut kind of a woman is unlikely to find her in FSU. These women have seen their mothers, aunts, sisters and friends out at work most often full time work, working as hard if not harder than the men and making more than a full contribution to the household. Of course when we bring them to our countries, without language skills, with often worthless degrees, needing to learn a whole new way of life, then for a short time they will be stuck at home doing the baking in the kitchen, but that don't last, they are up and job seeking at the first opportunity.

How many FSU women you know of are living in trailer parks suffering tyranny? They're just not daft enough for any of that.

BTW My wife takes her 100% freedom, I don't give it.

... in response to Alright then, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 1, 2003

if you went to a foreign land and somebody took your passport, you did not know the laws or the language and you were told you would be beat or even killed------you may not be so brave. And then there are many women who do run the house! I am the man in my house and I have all veto powers. I am the CEO. That being said, there are women living in squalor and in very dangerous environment. Check it out for yourself. There are many girls hiding halfway houses afraid of the husbands. This goes on in any country. And it has always gone on here. So for you to find it odd is suprising.
There are stereotypes and generalities but there are also exceptions.
joe
remember the 2 sides to every coin thingy?

... in response to believe me..., posted by yoe on Jan 1, 2003

What kind of 100% freedom is it when that freedom has a veto? By all means wear the trousers and don't let a woman walk all over you. But veto? Bit strong ain't it?

I like to think that I chose a sensible girl for my wife, someone who I can trust to make good decisions and if we can't agree, then at least we can agree to disagree. When the day comes when I think I need a veto or must try to impose my will upon her, I'll go send her on her way and go buy myself a dog.

Of course I'm not blind to what happens in the world, I've seen abusive relationships, usually it's sad to say I've seen women drift from one abusive relationship straight into another and another. It's like these people have some kind of radar for each other, filling some kind of need for each other.

Where I am, there is plenty of support on offer for those women who find it hard to get out of that kind of relationship, the police and courts here don't take kindly to domestic abuse, it's more than likely an abuser will get gaoled with no messing about. But if the woman then goes chasing after the gaoled abuser? Then she seeks the life she wants, I've seen it.

I can't imagine that anybody reduced to or used to living in squalor in a trailer park anywhere would be able to get his sh!t together long enough to raise the funds to get himself off to the FSU in the first place, let alone be able to bring a woman back with him.

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GoodWife / Planet-Love Archives => Threads started in 2003 => Topic started by: Horoshij on January 01, 2003, 05:00:00 AM