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However, if and then you get that gorgeous lady over to you, what have you told her to get her there? Maybe you have promised her gold and green forests, or a life in a rose garden? To this you can add all the expectations people from Russia have to a life in America. She has a lot of expectations and you have the same. You want a lady that everybody will envy you, but she should look only at you. She should be loving and not use your money and she should be  very thankful to you who saved her from misery and brought her to America.

The standard of living in Russia is improving, and the middle-class is growing. For instance my wife made more than 1000 dollars a month net. That is a lot of money in Russia where everything was much cheaper than in the west. Her standard of living has improved in Norway, but I took her away from her family and friends and it takes hard work and time to get a new career and new friends.

My point is that there is not only scammer women, but also scammer men. If your best card is the fact that you are living in America, what will happen when she discovers that America is not what she believed and you have told her and that you are not either like she believed. Maybe she will feel that you have scammed her? You will also be very disappointed. You have invested a lot of money and didn't get the profit you were expecting. How realistic are you in your search?

Haroshij

Is a problem for other reasons...

After you marry... SHE will live in America, too. If she came to be with you because she could live in America, then that goal is realized quickly... why not move on to new and better goals?

One thing I have heard as a constant from many of the men on here who are in happy marriages (and is true in my case) is that their wives would PREFER NOT living here.

If I told Victoria that I had a good job in Kiev, and we had to move there, she would be so happy that I could barely keep her off of the ceiling!

She has learned to like many things about America, but that has come slowly. She's not here for the privilege of living in the U. S. of A.... believe me...

She told me that after the first week here, she was wishing that somehow we could move to Ukraine. Everything here was such a shock for her. But she tells me that now it is much better.

For instance... she has decided that she likes the supermarket (it used to intimidate her) and she is even getting used to the fact that Americans drive everywhere. (Though she still insists that we park as far from the stores as possible so she can get a little walking in...)

I don't know. I only ask.

Haroshij

What she dislikes most about life here in Gt. Britain is the snobbishness of people (mostly women). The crowded roads and the lack of decent public transport (she hates learning to drive). She was surprised at the lack of family ties here, that I don't even know what my cousines look like and I see my siblings maybe twice a year.

She loves the beautiful Kent countryside, the fact that we are so close to the seaside and so near to Londons West End, being able to see history all around (she was amazed that people actually live in 500 year old houses). She delights in being able to visit the places in Surrey and Kent that inspired the writers of Winnie the Pooh and Alice in Wonderland.

She is impressed by our free health service, that she don't see armed policemen on every corner, the helpfulness of public officials that you don't have to bribe. She was surprised to see flowers everywhere.

She hasn't yet moaned about the rain and fog, she only says it's better it's not snowing or minus 10.

When my father asked Victoria what has surprised her most about life in America, she says she is shocked that I never lock my doors... neither my car doors, nor my house. My father explained to her that this is not really an American thing, it is a Mark thing.

When I asked her what her favorite thing about America is, she says that she loves the way we shop. To buy a bra, she told me, used to take her three hours. She had to walk to the marketplace, and then walk through many small stores to find the right size or style. Here, we can drive to a department store, and she has unlimited choices.

The amount of choices she has in the stores here amaze her. (Bed, Bath and Beyond blew her mind... we haven't even been to Victoria's Secret yet... I can hardly wait!)

She told me that she never enjoyed cooking before because she had to come up with new ways of cooking the same food (because her ingrediants were so limited.) I bought her a cookbook, and she can leaf through it, and pick anything she wants, and we can go to one store and buy all that she needs -- no matter what the season is. She tells me that she is learning to love cooking now, because it is so new and interesting...

And, of course, the idea of hot water is something that she is only now getting used to. Also, the idea of wearing something different every day. When she first came here, she was amazed that I had a washer and a dryer in my house. Now, she tells me, she sees why. But she loves it.

Last night, I finally convinced her to try the hot tub. That was funny... when I was emailnig her, and I tried to explain to her that I was building the deck so we could use our hot tub. She wanted to know if our bathroom was outside!

We laughed about that last night as she soaked in the tub with me and stared up at the stars. It was 40 degrees out. She was sure she was going to freeze. But after five minutes inside the tub, she understood.

So... there are many things that she loves about her life here.

But, she misses her father, and her friends terribly. Email helps. But it is not the same thing as being there.

I need to save up again before we go there.

However, she is on Frederick's of Hollywood's mailing list ;-)

We went to a dance club last week. Ohmigod! She was amazing. I never liked going dancing before. But with her... its MUCH different.

She tells me I dance really well. (I don't!) She says that a man is not supposed to move like a woman. He is simply to go on the dance floor with her, and let her do the REAL dancing.

Works for me!

I'm having the time of my life. The downside has been smaller and the upside has been larger than I could have dreamed...

Really... she's amazing...

And now I have to find a woman that has the same attitude as yours about dancing! I think that will be my first question when I call on Sunday!!!! LOL! :)

Z

But she has some friends. We will see if we can talk them into the "great search"

Elena also like shopping. To walk around and look, but most of all she likes to go to the gardener and walk in his green houses, and she cannot leave without buying something. When her family visited us, that was the first thing she was showing them. However, what she prefer most and like best is to walk in nature. We can go skiing, climb up on one of the mountains, go fishing on the fjord and she is an expert in picking mushrooms.

Haroshij

We always go food shopping every tuesday, and get much the same things every week, except she waits with curiosity while I select the strange ingredients for the surprise recipe which is kept secret until saturday when I cook. Maybe something African, Arab or Eastern. After three years it's becoming difficult to surprise her.

She also appreciates the variety of foodstuffs and has been surprised at our prices often commenting that somethings are cheaper here than in Kiev. She said that in Kiev she would often be limited by what they could grow at the dacha. So it's a whole new culinary world for them. I have to remind my wife sometimes that the three for the price of two chocolate cherry cake is the reason we see so many fat women here.

She thinks the automatic washing machine is the biz! and when she first arrived she thought the tumble dryer was a waste of space until she discovered that a few minutes would often dispense with any need for ironing.

Thanks for explaining what a "hot-tub" is, we don't have them here, I'd read some others posts and often wondered what the attraction of sitting in the bath without washing was! Okay so it's an outside bath and you don't use soap?

www.thefoody.com A nice site for the missus to try if shes ever stuck for ideas.

Brina D, (used to be a regular contributor, but who is now in Siberia with his lady), had a business that sold them.

Mine is six foot by six foot, and about 3 feet deep. It has moulded seats in it for you to lounge in, and teh best part is the jets which blow the water in small and directed jet streams on your back.

Very relaxing.

Some people find them sensual in other ways, but I find that the high temperature of the water inhibits this for me.

Although I will admit that watching my wife climb out of the tub, soft light from the tub illuminating her and the water running off of her in streaks... the cold combining with the hot water to send mist rising up around her, making her look like something rising from the lake in a Celtic tale... was quite a sight.

Well worth the price of the tub (and all of the hard work to build the deck around it) :-)

You got a net to go fishing them drowned hedgehogs out?

And dogs.

Although if my dog doesn't stop running across my spa cover, I might have to shoot him!

Those damn covers cost $250, and I've already had to replace it once!

I find it very hard to believe that you can get better stuff in Ukraine than you can get at Macys, Fortunoff, Bed and bath, etc.  Very Hard!

Peiper/Armani -AKA (Vaughn)

I've noticed my diet has changed by something like 50%, out has gone all that tinned and processed rubbish, the microwave now only gets used for de-frosting mostly and the freezer for ice cream. I eat a lot more fresh produce than ever before.

My wife loves the English fashions and was surprised by the quality and prices here, infact they make her old Ukrainian clothes look gaudy and she hardly wears them anymore. She always takes presents of clothes back for her goddaughter and her friends are always putting in orders for leather trousers which are half the price and better made here compared to the markets of Kiev.

Her mother packed her off with some bedding when she first came, well to be honest, it barely survived two washes and began falling to bits and fading.

Most of her wardrobe she has made herself. When I bought her a dinner dress (Really elegant black dress -- floor length, and completely backless -- complete with black satin gloves) she was so thrilled she started to cry. She told me it was the most beautiful thing she has ever worn. I think it cost me $125... NOT designer by any means.

And food... oh my! She loves the food here. The only thing she has seen me eat that she wouldn't even try was one morning when I made oatmeal. But she loves my chili, Chips and Salsa, Chicken-Pot pie, Kielbosa and Saurkraut, she made tortilla soup the other night it was amazing (that cookbook has been an adventure for both of us!)... on and on and on. We've had a little of everything. She has said many times that she can't believe how good the food is here.

She had been told by some people who had visited America that the food here was terrible. She thinks they are all crazy. Of course, we haven't eaten at McDonald's, either. And the food we have at home has all been home made. No cans of anything.

Maybe that makes a difference? I don't know.

But I sure haven't seen any signs of hating our food or our fashions.

Maybe Yoe's wife came from an upper income family or something?

Vaughn

Stand strong - Stand proud!

Vaughn

Thanks a lot!

Shame,shame...

Yoe's buddy

she has none of the cultural history of the country, so she doesn't understand much of the humor, or pop culture...

she only knows the history that she was taught in the Soviet schools...

you take her 7000 miles away from her freinds and her family...

She has to learn a new way of life. Everything she thought she knew how to do (just about) she needs to relearn...

the way she shops, the way her child is taught in school, the way she celebrates holidays...

After all of that... are you really surprised that she gets homesick?

It's not an indictment on the American way of life, as much as it is that if someone leaves their home and family, they will miss it...

You are living in Texas? In my search more than 3 years ago I met a lady from Yekaterinburg named Rita. For one reason or another she chose a man from Texas and moved to Dallas or close to. Don't remember exactly. He had a very good income, she told me. Well, this fellow had shift work, and was away most of the day. He had some kind of work in an airport, and Rita was alone most of the day. After they had married on Hawaii, he had a welcome party for her at home where he invited all the neighbours, and that was it. She didn't get any contact with them, and she spent the days alone with the computer. Her husband had few friends and his family lived another place. She sent me some emails and told how lonely she was. Her only activity was to water the flowers. I told her she had to be patient, she needed to learn the language better, and I suggested she could talk to her husband about attending some schools for studing and learning to drive. However, everything was very expensive, her husband told her. Later I realised that she also had continued to stay in contact with a man from Holland, and in the last letter to me she said she had decided to move to the man in Holland. Then I lost contact with Rita.

Maybe this explains a little.

Haroshij

My situation is quite different.

I work from home, and so am here almost all of the time with my wife.

She tells me all of the time that she is the happiest woman in the world. She doesn't feel for one moment that she has made a mistake...

But if we could go to Kiev tomorrow, she would be happier still.

These are not contradictory things.

She is here because of me. But if she had her druthers, she would rather have me with her and her family and her friends.

There is nothing to explain. I think it makes perfect sense...

I've no doubt you take care of your wife.

What my story tells is that in general American men have  very little social network around themselves. They don't have contact with their neighbours. They have have few friends and even little contact with their own family (according to what I've read here). Therefore it will be more difficult for a foreign woman to feel herself welcome when everybody is interested only in his own business and when there is so high degree of privatization .

Mark, note that I said in general. Of course it is not valid for everybody. However, I think everybody should remember that even if there is a good relationship between men and wife, in the long run everybody will need something more.

Haroshij

And, you are right that social circles is one thing very different in our societies.

However, I was simply saying that I don't think this is what makes women long for their home. I think that is simply a natural thing. Your initial question was: "Why do the women hate America so much?"  And I was saying, I don't think it is America, rso much...

That was my only point.

Sometimes, it seems people are quick to condemn American Society... but the real challenege of this would be present in any society that was 7000 miles away from the woman's home.

IMHO

I agree. The crucial point is what you said. She is a long way from home, and she is very much dependent on you. That gives us a big responsibility not to misuse the situation. She cannot leave and go home to mamma after a conflict. She has only her husband. This frightens me a little to know how totally dependent she is on me.

My Elena is maybe in a little better situation as it is possible for her to drive home. With hard driving it takes about to 24 hours, but we used two days last summer.

Horoshij

I was under the impression is was about two people (maybe more if kids are involved :-) liking each other enough to make a commitment that would grow into love.  It was supposed to be about understanding, respect, commitment, trust, etc...  Not how much you make, or "trading up".  If her only concern is about what you make, how nice is your car, where do you live, then save yourself the travel money and hit the local bar.  You can find plenty there to ask you those questions (Heck, they might even go home with you a few times until someone with a better car comes along :-)

My girl and I haven't discussed money.  She knows I have a house and a job.  She knows I live in a smaller town outside the city.  She knows who I work for (Don't even say it Jack :-) and that I travel alot.  Other than that we spend our time talking about us and our daughters, what we like to do, what our goals are, what we want for our children.

If you're hung up on the $$$ you make, or your future spouse is, then forget it.  You're wasting your time in this endevour.....  Just my 2 fils

Jski ,

It isn't all about money ; it's about the things that you talked about : understanding , respect , trust , commitment , etc.......and I hope that at least in some corner of our heads we can keep that in mind .

Thanks for that reminder . It's wise to be cautious and careful ; but not so much so that you lose sight of those things that are so important , the things that you mentioned . Things that are important for any marriage , and any relationship .

I think that maybe he made some sweeping generalizations , and there are always be exceptions to generalizations like that whopper he made . Perhaps his perceptions about us here , and about Americans in general , may be partially due to our recent experiences here ( with JohnLV/DavidSD et al...) . ( Oy!!!) I think that the point he was trying to make was about MOB men and RW being honest and realistic with each other in their communications and expectations .

I know you've already got those bases covered .   :- )

You mentioned a while back that you were planning on going to Ukraine in January . Still going ? If you are , dress warm ; and the Best of Luck to you . Hope things work out and I hope you enjoy your visit .

don

Well, try to tell your fiancee that you are living in Mexico in a little cabin together with the rest of your family, but that you have a lot of valuable traits of character. Try and see what happens.

Why do you think those ladies want to go to a western country? They want a better life, and don't you believe that all Russian men are bad guys.

I don't see anything wrong in wanting a better economical situation. It's possible to have two thoughts in the head at the same time. FSU ladies may think that they want a better economical life with a man they love and with all those good qualifications you and Jski write about.

Finally. I don't hate America. In fact I've always been an admirer of the original American virtues, I love American music, I'm grateful to America for what she did in two world wars and did after the war to build up Europe. I've always looked at America as a big brother for little Norway. I even admire America for it ability to act when we Europeans only talk and talk. I've friends and family in the USA and I love to visit your country. Because of these facts, I also can allow myself to point to contradictions or trends that surprise me and even point at difference.

Haroshij

You make some good points ; and now that I have a better understanding of exactly what it was you were trying to say , I agree with much of what you were trying to express . I got focused on one part , and managed to miss your point entirely.

You started talking about apples , and I assumed you were talking about oranges ...sorry 'bout that .

Maybe you'll let me buy you a nice , ice cold Baltika next time I'm in Norway ?  

Kharasho ?

Haroshij

She didn't know much about Norway. Started to read a little after she met me. I invited her to come here before she decided what she wanted, she had however burned most bridges behind her before she came, so maybe you're right  after all :-).

Haroshi

Yes, I'm still going later in January for 11 days.  Its going to be a real weather shock for me as I'm in the Mideast for a week starting Sunday, then back here in the Midwest US for a few days, then to Ukraine.  I'll be the only guy in Kiev with Sunburn right now :-) ...Now where did I put that thinsulate liner for my leather coat...?

I'll do the "required" trip report upon my return as I'm leaving the cell phone, Laptop and any other way that work can get ahold of me here in the house for that trip :-)

I don't know how the heck you do it......be-bopping all over the globe like you do.....If I tried to do something like that I'd be jet-lagged for a week...probably sleep for two days straight right off the bat too...

Good idea about leaving the laptop and cellphone behind ; after all , you're there to Enjoy Yourself !  Pretty hard to do if your pager's going off every ten minutes or so .  :- (  .  I hate the d@mn things , and tend to 'forget' mine a few times a week myself...;-)

I remember us talking a while back about gifts ...Got any cool surprises packed for your lady or her daughter ?

Best Wishes ,

don

They actually wanted me to split my vaction and fly from Kiev to UAE then back to Simferopol...Wish I had a camera to capture the look when I started laughing.  First real vacation for me in 5 years so no way are they messing this one up!  Heck, it only took three tries to get the Multi entry business visa.  I was about to give up and use a service, but I figured it out in the end (looking back I could have done it that way the first try and been done, so I'll know better next time)

I've had my daughter's help in picking out gifts for her daughter (they are the same age).  Her daughter likes art stuff so I got a lot of that as well.  For her.....Well, I'm going to be next to the Gold Souks in Dubai next week so we'll have to see what strikes my fancy.  I've developed a pretty good relationship with one of the dealers there and they quit trying to start at the tourist price with me :-)  The hard gifts seem to be her parents.  They own a  store an her father likes technical things...That's what I've had to go on.  She said it doesn't matter, just the thought, but I'd still like it to be nice (and not nice as in a Gold plated cheese grater).  Her brother is easy, anything Playstation :-)

It sounds like you've got some pretty cool gifts picked out for your lady and her family . And putting a few smiles on their faces will put a big one on yours too .   :-D

Have a great trip , Jski . We'll be thinking about you back here .

And , despite the cold weather , I wish I was headed back there now , too !

Good Luck !

And the pirate says, "Aaar, its driving me nuts!"

If I do say bro, excuse me,
yes, excuse me ahead, because, we french-canadian, know that we are  "les negres blanc d'Amérique".

In english, america white negro (had another word to use here).  Now we have to be politically correct and say
African American.  

Have a happy one, it is from the heart, trust.

Well first about my nick. You're right, I discovered the mistake after having registered, so I'll have to live with it.

You are probably right that many Russian don't feel the result of the growing economy very much. However, people do get their salaries which they didn't some years ago. Pensions are going up, but what I was referring to is the fact that there is a growing middle-class in Russia. Also in the USA you will find a growing populations of poor people. The Russian middle-class is able to live good. I can tell you that Norwegian cod is reported being sold for more than 100 Norwegian kroner pr. kilo in Moscow ( 1 dollar = 1 euro = 7 Norwegian kroner). Who do you think is willing to pay so much? Norway is exporting more and more smoked salmon to Russia. Who do you think is buying it? Nothing that is produced in Norway is cheap.

Haroshij

I must add that there are poor people here in the US. There are many reasons. One of the reasons is NOT opportunity. The truth is some people chose to be poor. How? I worked for a construction company that was told to hire Black workers by the Social Democratic government of Jimmy Carter. We paid for advertising, went to the employment offices, recruited every day, to avoid fines by the government. Almost every day we had men who came to work. At the end of the summer we had one man who worked for one whole day. Why? They chose to be poor. They preferred the easy life of Welfare to hard work. I am not saying that Black people do not work. I am saying that Black or White, many poor people chose, or find ways to chose to be poor.

Some people chose to ignore an education; they have chosen to be poor. Some people chose drugs over a normal life; they chose to be poor.

It is the same way with fat Americans. They do not refuse the extra hamburger, and they get fat. So they chose to be fat. They could walk to work, but they chose place their fat bottoms in the nice soft leather seat of the car. They could excercise, but they do not. So they chose to be fat.

Steve

One of my friends had a car repair garage on the poor side of town.  He worked as an engineer during the day and worked on race cars in the evening and on weekends as a hobby.  He often got guys coming around asking for money and so he decided to ask them if they would work for it.  Hard to believe but he said every single one of the guys took off when asked to work for the money.  That just proves what I always thought.

Steve

And you are right... if they had Texas, they would inflict it with all of the stupid socialist programs that Mexico has, and soon it would be just like Mexico.

Don't worry, though... All we need are 189 Texans, and we can hold it...

BTW... did you hear the news report:

An Iraqi patrol was out and they heard a voice over a hill say: "One Texan is worth five Iraqis!"

Angered, the commander sent five Iraqi soldiers over the hill. There was the sound of gunfire and fighting, and then they heard the voice say:

"Ha! One Texan is worth TEN Iraquis!"

The commander was really pissed, so he sent ten soldiers. More gunfire, more fighting. Then silence. And then:

"One Texan is worth FIFTY Iraquis!"

The rest of the fifty sodiers charged over the hill screaming battle cries. A terrible firefight ensues. Finally, one lone Iraqi soldier crawls back over the hill, and drags himself to his commanders feet.

"Sir!" He croaks. "Don't send any more men! It is a trap! There are two of them..."

Yes, it is getting real good for about 1%, and a *little* better for maybe 25% in the two major population centers, but it is only getting  getting worse for the vast majority.

The talk about people moving with their spouses back to Russia to be more contented is a pathetic joke.

When I went there, I bought here a hot water heater, new shoes, new winter boots, and 2 new leather/fur coats.

I think that you guys have got a lot backwards.  If a woman from there TRULY loves you and is truly mature, she isn't going to be too upset about living in the country.  I'm paying $900/month for child support and my wife is happy (with her engineering job) to help out.  But we are doing pretty good with combined income of about $150,000/year.  But, we have two smaller children, and I have 2 still in college.

If you go over there and marry some tour groupie who is much under 25 years old and all slinky and western looking, then you  deserve what you end up getting (in all likelihood).

As our poster has mention Norway is the most properous country but Canada and the USA rank 5th and 6th.  The group doing the rating did not like it that in the USA the wealth was not distributed more evenly and we were rated lower as a result.  I wonder how we would have rated otherwise.

Yeah, we agree on everything except that issue about what prevent people from getting success, their own will and ability or the structures of society.

Never the mind. I'm not in mood to discuss that not. I want peace with everybody.

Thank you for being such a nice guy. Greetings to your wife.

Haroshij