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[This message has been edited by Lynn]

This one will------or it should. How different will the women of the FSU see Amerika from Mother Russia?

http://www.theonion.com/onion3847/bill_of_rights.html

Read it and weep.

If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.... If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed. -- Thomas Jefferson to Col. Yancey, 1816

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776

... in response to Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

Robert asked for one :)

... in response to Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

so I can get off my soapbox and go home on this lovely friday afternoon.

Robert D.

... in response to waiting for an amen, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

viva libertas!

... in response to Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

...The Onion doesn't make a very good starting point for a discussion of anything but humor - You DO realize that it's satire, right?

-Ken Williams

... in response to Uhh..'scuse me but..., posted by Ken W on Dec 20, 2002

You didn't have to spill the beans so soon. If you get down to the nitty-gritty there is more truth than fiction in that satire than 99% of the sheeple are willing to see.
Take a close look at what has went on here in the last 90 years. We were once mighty, now we are one of the biggest debtor nations on earth, in fact it is estimated that if the international bankers called in all their notes, and we signed the nation over to them, that might cover 1/3 of the debt. As the Ukrainian lady told my friend in DC "I thought that America was the land of the free and the home of the brave. We have more freedom in Ukraine than you do here. The funny thing is you Americans don't realize how enslaved you are."

... in response to Re: Uhh..'scuse me but..., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

"this country is freedom? Nobody knows what freedom is here!" Of course she lives with a man who is under surveilance 24/7 too. That may make a difference. ;)
Joe
ps. LP get your boys offa my roof

... in response to my wife laughs and says..., posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

....ain't my boys Yoey, I left that biz a long time ago and make an honest living now. If they were "my" boys these days they'd have made a very big hole in your roof and be in your living room by now.

Are ya sure it ain't Santa? ;-)

... in response to Re: Uhh..'scuse me but..., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

...but aren't you supposed to be going to see the King? BTW watch out for that Foxy-Loxy fellow, I hear he's quite the scoundrel.

*groan*

- Ken Williams

... in response to Well, I wont get between you and the soa..., posted by Ken W on Dec 20, 2002

You may find out soon enough: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Pub7277.htm

... in response to Well, I wont get between you and the soa..., posted by Ken W on Dec 20, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

Is that the best you can come back with? I suppose you think that we are a financially strng country? Do a little research, find out the "real" truth about our monetary system. Analysts say that when the Euro reaches 1.17USD to 1EURO that our money will be on the verge of collapse. It took the Federal Reserve exactly 20 years to bankrupt the USA and since it's creation in 1913 our country has been sinking deeper and deeper into debt every day/hour/minute/second. I give you this:

http://brillig.com/debt_clock/

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Give me control over a nation's currency and I care not who makes its laws.  -- Baron M.A. Rothschild (1744 - 1812)

"The few who can understand the system (Federal Reserve) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of the people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests".  --John Sherman, protege of the Rothschild banking family, in a letter sent in 1863 to NY Bankers, Morton, and Gould, in support of the then proposed National Banking Act

... in response to Re: Well, I wont get between you and the..., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

There is a real live debt clock on Sixth Ave
here in NYC.  The best place to see it from is
Bryant Park, corner of 42nd and Sixth.

This is he funny thing: It should have been running
backwards during the recent boom times, because the
federal debt was being paid off fast.  Instead
is was turned off, and then covered up.

It's running again now, though.

What's up with that?

... in response to funny thing about the debt clock, posted by vagn on Dec 21, 2002

Got to keep the mice on the treadmill, I suppose.

Ever thought about just who we are in debt to??????

Do some research as to where your tax dollars "actually" go.

... in response to Re: Well, I wont get between you and the..., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

I liked your commentary Lynn ........  I seem to have heard similar stories here. Strange, our (Kangaroo) currency was equal to the new Euro when it was 'floated'. Funny thing, someone tore our $ in halves, and I reckon they have lost the other half as well.

Yeh, you wont be immune from this trend, phenomenen, plan; Ah well, its all happening.

Long live Kangaroo Currency, it jumps all over the place, but a 'buck's a buck' when you ain't got a greenback. LOL

JL.

... in response to Lynn... why do you have to make so much ..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 20, 2002

It's ironic how most people here n Amerika care & know little to nothing about what is going on.

... in response to Woke up, started peeling onions, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

I kinda like honesty & honor: with my "pot roast & onions."

Merry Christmas,

Vaughn

... in response to Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

I think they should leave the dang thing as it is and just make a new law that says durring a so called/declaired state of war the government has the right to do whatever they want in order to protect the average Joe. This way there is room for a fight if someone is able to prove their civil liberties were abused above and beyond what a jury would consider appropriate.

Mike

... in response to Re: Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Mike on Dec 20, 2002

Splaaaain.....

... in response to Re: Do Onions make you cry???, posted by Mike on Dec 20, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

It already exists. All your court systems already operate under it or should I say Maritime/Commercial Law. Homeland Security Bill has brought us closer to a communist state than Ukraine is now.

... in response to Martial Law, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

Hey Lynn,

It is going to be a real bummer for the folks who get left behind who have to face the legal and technological beast that is now being assembled. But you know, it is just a part of the plan. History is His Story and there ain't no stopping it. Yes, the Adversary thinks he can and the things you mention are just a part of his strategy.

But he won't prevail!

The Lion of the Tribe of Judah has already won!!!

Best regards.

WmGO

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

Agreed on all points. I just refuse to make it easier for the "beast".
Do you read National Geographic? If so check out Hitachi's ads. in some of the recent issues. One caught my eye that mentioned that they were the world leader in bio-electronics, the add shows a egg with a computer chip laying on top of it about 3/32 square and explains that the actual chip is 25x smaller. With GPS technoligy, there would be no place to hide if you accept it.

... in response to Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

yes, I am a subscriber and yes I saw it.  

You know, all that technology might not be so bad if they can come up with the "perfect woman" :) You know, the kind that always look good, likes to cook and to stay barefoot and pregnant :O Feminists flame on!!!!!! Yes it is the *men* who have created this technology and *we* will use it to create ...........Ms. Cyborg!!!!!!!! A perfect 10 24 hours a day!!!!!!

... in response to Barefoot and Pregnant, posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

And...When it's time for re-programming.  You just slide the disc right into the crack of herazz. LOL.

... in response to Barefoot and Pregnant, posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

keep a spare set of good 'Energisers - Heavy Duty' close by as well William !

Merry Christmas Mate.

JL.

... in response to Barefoot and Pregnant, posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

is the on/off switch ;)

... in response to The main thing , posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

would ultimately find a way to short circuit that when it suited. Even better, I reckon a big green 'mushroom' switch on a timer would be more appropriate Lynn.

JL.

... in response to But then,   *they *.........., posted by JohnL on Dec 21, 2002

Mine comes with a CLAPPER!!!

... in response to Martial Law, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

What is already happening is the old McCarthyism. Instead of all peoples looking for Commies-we now call them terrorist and they have no rights whatsoever. Oh yeah and they can be put you to death with practically no representation. Welcome to the New Salem!
Joe
ps. we have been at war in Iraq now for quite awhile in case anyone did not know.
pss.The Pied Piper. The best way to rid the rats is to bring in the cats, but then you must bring in the dogs to rid the cats, then tigers to rid the dogs, then elephants to rid the tigers-then you must pay the piper....to bring back the rats to get rid of the elephants.
we are preparing to ally Iran to go against Iraq-the same Iraq we fueled to fight Iran, to create support terrorism to support Iran to get more oil.........and we wonder why the world hates us.......but better not say anything or you will be a terrorist-and that is punishable by death~

... in response to I glad we agree on some things...:), posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

...lol...just for you. Move your cursor on it.

http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv6.htm

... in response to Yoey....., posted by LP on Dec 20, 2002

i always new he was a dikhead!!! haha
joe
thanks

... in response to I glad we agree on some things...:), posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002


It's comical, this rush to war, isn't it? Perhaps, Iraq's Republican Guard is preping to mount an attack on our shores in a fortnight. Propaganda is swell, aint it?

"... and we wonder why the world hates us..."

Could it be that, we have troops in over 100 countries? Or, that we are still "occupying" Germany & Japan - 57 years later? Or the neccisity of N.A.T.O. aft...

We will never agree on much, yet this "Patriot Act" is a sham upon all of our liberties. My only hope is: if it came from "your party", you would respond in kind. It certainly warms my heart that, many Russian's look at our faux-imperialism with caution.

Did you happen to see the last L.A. Weekly cover? If not I will send it to ya, if you like.

Rant off... I gotta walk the dogs.

Vaughn

ps. McCarthy was right - loookie in FSU archives.

 

... in response to I glad we agree on some things...:), posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

And the solution is?

... in response to Re: I glad we agree on some things...:), posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

become involved-actively. Talk to congressman, senators talk about the issues. Get more people to the voting booths. If America falls it is all of our faults. Democracy is the greatest concept for Government but it is no more effective than communism when we continually elect liars, whoremongers, bigots and thieves. This who less government crap just means a stronger coporate hold. At least if we have more government-WE ELECT THE DECISION MAKERS. We do not have that luxury at Enron, Philip Morris, Exxon and on and on. Never trust a politician who runs on the God ticket!
Joe

... in response to Solution is........, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

Chill................

... in response to Solution is........, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

I email Bush and Powell all the time.  Never got an answer yet, but you never know.  An old Pakistani man once told me that "An empty stomach knows no country."  The opposite is also true, that those that are happy and complacent, just let things go as they are.  Local government is the easiest to "take over" and is maybe a good place to start.  Personally, I participate.  We will never have good state and federal government until there are more involved, who care, and don't mind being a "one term" politician for all those business interests they will piss-off.  Perrot, Steve Forbes, maybe had the right ideas, and enough money that they would have been happy to be "world shakers" for only one term.  Not the norm...get elected, get re-elected, don't get mad, get even.

... in response to Solution is........, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

Socrates, Plato and Aristotle all chose democracy as the third best system of government.  The first was a benevolent
dictatorship, the second was...well, I can't remember, but 3rd on their list was democracy!

... in response to Solution is........, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

All of that is good.   And I agree with what you said.   But in the immediate future so that we have the opportunity to get involved and get idiots out of office, what do we do.  I am frankly concerned that no matter who is in office, dealing with issues of terrorism, with an adversary bent on death, and unwilling to negotiate a solution to the problem, our options are limited.  Heck even a peace loving democrat, Mr. Bill was about to attack North Korea three years ago when they started up again their atomic program.  That gives you an idea of how limited the options were.  Additionally, we did not "finish the job" for lack of a better term with Iraq because of fear, of a conservative adminstration, of appearing too blood thirsty, so now it seems we will do again what we could have finished before.(and of course that does not answer the question of why we send kids to war just so we can have cheap gas, and frankly I agree with that statement as well.)  But no one can tell me what we can do now, right now, to prevent 9/11 again.  
   Think about it, at this moment it is 1945, you are now Harry Truman.  Before you are your advisors.   Two thirds of your top advisors are against using the bomb on Japan.  Most of your generals are against it.   You get to decide.  Then a small number of people remind you of several things.  We lost more dead and wounded in the Pacific campaign that in Europe.  The island hopping to JApan after Quam, etc, is expected to take as few as 200,000 us lives, and possibly as much as 500,000 or more because we were dealing with an enemy who is good at what he does and fanatical about his cause and country.  That same enemy, fought almost to the last man on each island campaign, and seems to fight even harder the closer we get to his mainland.   The same enemy suffered losses, not sustained by any nation, except Russia, yet showed no sign of surrender, or compromise.  
    Now Mr. Truman, what do you do!!!!   If you send in the troops, and after the fact, what will you say to the widows and parents of 500,000 dead young men and women?  Yes you could have dropped the bomb but there was no honor in it?  Truman knew that the real issue was not what would happen if he did drop the bomb but rather what would happen if he did not.  (and yes the issue of innocents is always an issue in any war, but in that war, virtually the entire nation was moblized to fight and support the war.  Also, until then it seemed that is was only us that were ever concerned about civilian casualties and the good treatment of prisoners of war)  Some say that he would have been impeached for not doing what he was charged to do as the leader of our government.  The first impertive of such government is not to make us money, or even to feed us, it is to protect us so we can go about our lawful business.  Some still view his decision as racist, etc, un needed, etc.  But considering his only two options, I suspect he had the courage to withstand the critics, and did what I think he had to do.  
   In the current conflict, I do wish we had more intellegent leadership. I would feel more comfortable with their decisions if they were.   I feel the current Administration is more concerned with political success, as was also true of the last adminstration, than making the hard decisions in the short term, that may be difficult for us to accept now but good in the long run.  In the end, and I will end and apologize for speaking so long, I will bet my life that history will show that we knew more than we thought we knew about 9/11 in advance and that we were too affraid to take the steps,(like some of the ones we are doing now) because of the risk of being politically incorect,or offensive to certain groups of indiviuals.   What a price to pay folks if that is true.  But I did not lose any persons I know on 9/11 so the  average person can look upon what happened with a bit of distance and lack of emotion.  But talk to those who lost relatives, or think if your son or daughter were lost and others were still at risk.  Then I wonder if I could then as you "What is the solution?"  I wonder what your answer would be.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Solution is........, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

that Japan had the first force of "suicide bombers" in modern times with their Kamakazi pilots, which did tremendous damage to Navy ships in the Pacific.  "Fanatic", you say!

One of the reasons that Brits still hate Japan to this day is the treatment of Brit prisoners....shut off at the valve, garden hose was stuffed  down a prisoners throat...valve turned to full open...stomach explodes.  Rather brutal, don't you think?

... in response to Solution is........, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

Do we have a democracy? Democracy is mob rule. Historically all democracies have failed. Our country was founded on "Christian" not Judeo-Christian principals and not as "Democracy", but as a "Republic", big difference. Although, since 1950 there has not to my knowledge been any mention of a "Constitutional Republic" in any public school text books. Plenty of reference to democratic principals, administrative policy, government mandate, etc. Now why do you suppose that is? Did someone slip in and re-write the Constitution when we were not looking? Our country was founded on "Common Law", whereas you could do whatever you wanted to do as long as you didn't bother or harm anyone else.

"Never trust a politician who runs on the God ticket!"

 Let me see if I can remember the quote, something to the effect of: "It is fortunate for us that the people do not think."..Adolf Hitler

 Seems I remember a proverb saying something to the effect of: "Keep your eyes open, least ye be deceived"

... in response to Re: Solution is........, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

And the solution is?

... in response to Re: Re: Solution is........, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

....it's a republic, big difference. And I'm fully aware of whats goin on. Ashcroft is the real danger, Bush is only a simple moron.

The solution is to arm oneself, and do it now. lol, and maybe buy some fatigues and move to Montana.

... in response to Not a democracy, posted by LP on Dec 20, 2002

In a republic someone must make the rules-who is so divinely inspired to know what is right for all men and women-Goerge Bush? Maybe she should just stay in office until he dies?
A Democracy is the only way to go. The Mob rules because the Mob lives here, works, here and pays here. Should I come to your house and tell you how to live?
I believe in todays techno world we should scan our ss numbers and let the masses vote on decisions of government. They already do in a poll technique. And one thing George is good at-reading the polls. This guy is not stupid. He is aware of his weakness and totally plays the polls. He is all bark and only bites when the polls support him. We will see what happens next.
ps. for all those seeking FSU women, politics seems to be a hot topic for some of these gals. My wife loves it. We need some more intelligent women here. So go get em.
joe

... in response to Re: yes a democracy, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

were already made a long time ago. They have nothing to do with who the president is. Read your elementary school history book. It happened in 1776, 1789 and 1791. These all flowed from Magna Charta, Cooke's Institutes,  Blackstones Commentaries and The Glorious Revolution.

Yes, we need  more intelligent women in this country. It is a real bummer when women can only engage in level one communication (talking about people).

... in response to Re: yes a democracy, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

republic

n : a political system governed by the people or their representatives [syn: democracy, commonwealth]
websters....

democracy

n 1: the political orientation of those who favor government by the people of by their elected representatives 2: a political system governed by the people or their representatives [syn: republic, commonwealth]

... in response to ps, posted by yoe on Dec 20, 2002

These portions of your Webster's dictionary were obviously written by incompetents. There was a time when all dictionaries provided the following common knowledge and common sense definitions: The definiton of democracy is government by the majority. The definition of republic is government of laws not of man. Yes, in a republican form of government men elected democratically decide what those laws are going to be, but there is always a constitution and a common law that is always considered supreme regardless of what the majority wants the law to be, which is in stark contrast to pure democracy. In a republic there is also a system of dispersion of governmental powere so as to create a system of checks and balances. In America, this dispersion was accentuated by the creation of a *federal* republic.

Why do you think the Founding Fathers placed the requirement in the US Constitution that before new states could be admitted to the Union they had to have a "Republican Form of Government"? See Article IV

... in response to Not a democracy, posted by LP on Dec 20, 2002

That's a big 10-4. As Ben Franklin said "A republic if you can keep it."

Democracy = mobocracy (tyranny of the majority)

Republic = a government of laws, not of man

Too many people don't know basic civics. They confuse the democratic features that exist in a republic with democracy.
In 1961 Robert Welch wrote an excellent article  entitled "Republics and Democracies" and I highly recommend it.

Arguably, with the advent of the Federal Register America  passed out of its republican phase into something else that is still somewhat republican but also something...I am struggling for the right word. Washington can basically dictate many things. This power is neither fascist nor communist but it has a totalitarian flavor to it.

The first thing the politicians said after 9-11 was that "this was an attack on liberty itself...and in responding to the attack we will not sacrafice or jeopardize our liberty...to do so would be to surrender what the terrorists want to destroy.."

Then, of course, one law after another has been passed in the name of the war on terror all of which dramatically increase the power of the central government at the expense of the people's freedoms and liberties.

The good news is that it is all just a part of the plan...stay tuned!

WmGOtuningin

... in response to Re: Re: Solution is........, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

Thomas Jefferson said "When the people are afraid of the goverment, you have tyrany. When the goverment is afraid of the people, you have good government.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Solution is........, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

I submit to you then is that we do have a government afraid of the people, since we have elected officials driven by public opinion polls, upcoming elections, fund rasing, etc.  Nice quote.   And as for the issue of mob rule, think about it.  yes it is sad to say that the majority of Americans spend more time deciding on which beer to drink and the next shopping spree at Macy's than the development of any meaningful, well founded political thought.  And yes most do not vote.  And yet every now and then they get upset about something and vote sometimes doing great harm, because of their complete lack of knowledge.   But think about it.   Our government was never meant to appeal to or serve only the top 9 percent of people to take the time to have these kinds of discussions.  It was meant to work just as it has.  And if a person or group is up able to appeal to the masses, ie those that do vote, to agree with their postions, well that is how it is suppose to work.  Our democracy allows us to speak out minds by voting and sometimes by not voting at all.  Both are valid expressions of belief, disblief, etc.    
    Additionally, it allows us and has fostered in my view, a rather compassionate view of the world.  Try to get citizenship in England, Sweeden, etc.   You will find you are not welcomed.  (yep even us nice American folks)   Yet we in America allow more folks to come here than any Western first world democracy.  We do so with few restrictions.  Additionally, we continue to allow free access to our country, in spite of bombing of our people in several foreign countries, shooting down of commercial airplanes, and suicide bombings of military installations, and ongoing threats against our country.  We continue to our peril, and only begin to question our openness, after 3,000 people are killed by identifiable groups of people. Then and only then, faced with the loss of life and possibly great loss of life to we retreat, just a little, from our rather open arms policy.  
    I believe government if required to be flexible, given the times were are in.   No one likes the idea of any reduction of personal freedom.  I for one do not.  But I for one understand.  And I also understand average JOE and Sally Joe, disinterest in the details of how our government will do its first an most important job, provide him and her with the required personal security, so they can go about their lawful business and do what is perhaps their only real interest in life, feeding, educating, and taking care of their families.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution is........, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

"It was meant to work just as it has."

Better read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, before you make that statement. If you don't have one, e-mail me your address and I'll send you a copy.

 "Our democracy allows us to speak out minds by voting and sometimes by not voting at all."

 Once again, "Our" government was not founded as a democracy, it is a Republic. Although politicians would have you think that it is a democracy. And our public schools make sure that everything is "socially" acceptable that our children are taught.

As for the security issue, the Federal government is not responsible for "personal" security, only "national" security.

I agree that most people spend a lot more time trying to figure out who is going to win some sporting event or who's buying the next beer than paying attention to who is cheating them out of our forefather's most precious gift to us---Freedom.

Lynn

... in response to Martial Law, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

As a lawyer and long time student of history you are way off base here.  Just plain wrong.    For eveyone that is critical of what steps are currently being taken I ask you to try this.   Be critical only of what you can offer as a reasonable (practical) solution to our current crisis.  It would be nice to belive as some do, that we can all sing to old Coke song "in peace and harmony" "love one another right now" "and love will find a way"  and all that.  But frankly offer your suggestion for a solution that work, given what is going on, and be prepared to look into the faces of the families of people who's lovedones die if you are wrong.    Remember we are not charged with the responsibility of responding to the threat.  We have no decision making burden, we can just pontificate about what is wrong and what should not be done, but few if anyone of such people offer anything in the way of solutions.

Robert D.

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

"As a lawyer and long time student of history you are way off base here. Just plain wrong."
I still want to know, if I am supposedly wrong, on what point? In typical "lawyer" fashion, you never answered my question. My last post before you said I was "wrong" and "way off base" was about what kind of law the courts in this country are held under. Now, what is it? (a) martial, (b) commercial, (c) maritime, or (d) Constitutional (as in the Constitution of the united States of America)

And your answer is...............

Should we all hold our breaths in anticipation?

"What am I wrong about? Facts please. If you say I'm wrong, I'll accept that, but only on condition of substantuated facts." By this statement I have allowed you to retain a position of honor in this discussion. As a lawyer you should know that the most dishonorable thing to do in any verbal confrontation is to not reply (it dishonors both parties), the second most dishonorable thing is to argue without facts to back up your claim.

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

[This message has been edited by WmGo]

It is illogical to cite being " a lawyer and long time student of history " in support of the proposition that someone is "way off base" :)

... in response to I thought we already decided to kill all..., posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

My point is, I have worked within the system for almost 20 years, and studied it for 15 years before that.  I have seen few changes and certainly do not feel like the courts are under marshall law.  That just seems a bit reationary.  
Robert D.

... in response to Re: I thought we already decided to kill..., posted by Robert D on Dec 23, 2002

I will prove my point. If you please, read all of the attachment below the line and tell me what it means. Granted it's a long read, but you just may learn something from a dumb old country boy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Standard Proportions For The United States Flag

THE FLAG IS PRECISELY DEFINED BY LAW

On June 14, 1776, Congress made the following resolution: "The flag of the United States shall be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white, with a union of thirteen stars of white on a blue field..." Because Congress made no rule for the arrangement of the stars, they were displayed in different ways, most usually in a circle. As new states joined the Union, they demanded representation in the stars and stripes of the flag. In 1795 Congress voted to increase to 15 the number of stars and stripes. Legislation enacted in 1818 reestablished the number of stripes at 13 and instituted the policy, "That on the admission of every new state into the Union, one star be added to the Union of the flag..."

An executive order issued by President William Howard Taft on Oct. 29,1912, fixed the overall width and length of the U.S. flag, known technically as the hoist and fly, respectively, in a ratio of 1: 1.9. The thirteen stripes were fixed at equal width. The hoist of the blue field containing the stars was fixed at seven-thirteenths of the overall hoist, that is, as extending from the top of the flag to the bottom of the seventh stripe. The fly of the blue field was fixed at a tiny fraction over three-fourths the overall hoist. The diameter of each star was established as a minute fraction under one-sixteenth of the overall hoist.

"The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternating red and White; and the union of the flag shall be forty eight stars, white in a blue field. " 61 Stat. 642, July 30,1947, ch. 389. 4 U.S.C.A.1. This describes the civil flag of the United States, as it is to be flown in the District of Columbia, its enclaves and overseas on ships and embassies.

Currently, the Flag of the united States of America is defined as :

The American Flag of Peace of the united States of America is described as red, white and blue, with thirteen alternating red and white horizontal stripes, and a blue field (union) with 50 stars, one to represent each of the several States. The Flag is proportional, (1 X 1.9) . This proportion is easily determined by measuring the length (fly) and dividing by the measurement of the width (hoist). The length divided by the width should be very nearly 1.9. If the flag is not to the correct 1 X 1.9 proportion, it is not an official Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 American Flag of Peace of the united States of America.

Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 and Presidential Executive Order 10834, found in the Federal Register at Vol. 24. No. 166, P.6365 - 6367.

Title 4 U.S.C. 3 provides that anything put on the title 4 U.S.C., 1, 2 American Flag such as gold fringe MUTILATES the Flag and carries a one-year prison term. This is confirmed by the authority of title 36 U.S.C. 176 (g). The gold fringe is a fourth color and represents "color of military law" jurisdiction and when placed on the title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Flag, mutilates the Flag and suspends the Constitution. (Refer to title 18 U.S.C. 242, see Black's Law Dictionary).

As provided by title 36 U.S.C. 173 and Army Regulation 840-10, chapter 2-1(b), the Flag of the united States of America is defined and described in title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2. Civilians must use the title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Flag (see title 36 U.S.C. 173 and Army Regulation 840-10, chapter 2-7) and when military flags are displayed by Army Regulation 840-10, chapter 2 and title 36 U.S.C. 175.

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You may recall in the old Westerns, "Old Glory" has her stripes running sideways and a military yellow fringe. Most of these films are historically accurate about that; their stories usually took place in the territories still under military law and not yet states. Before WWII, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states (except in federal settings); only state flags did. Since then, the U.S. government seems to have decided the supposedly sovereign states are its territories too, so it asserts its military power over them under the "law of the flag."

History book publishers contribute to the public's miseducation by always picturing the flag in military settings, creating the impression that the one with horizontal stripes is the only one there is. They don't actually lie; they just tell half the truth. For example, the "first American flag" they show Betsy Ross sewing at George Washington's request, was for the Revolution - of course it was military.

The U.S. government has refrained from and discouraged flying the civil flag since the War between the States, the Civil War, as that war is still going on. Peace has never been declared, nor have hostilities against the people ended. The government is still operating under quasi-military martial rule.

Today the U.S. military flag appears alongside, or in place of, the state flags in nearly all locations within the states. All of the state courts and even the municipal ones now openly display it. This should have raised serious questions from many citizens long ago, but we've been educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think or search for the truth.

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THE UNITED STATES MILITARY FLAG WITH THE GOLD FRINGE

FLAG Martial Law; "Pursuant to 4 U.S.C. chapter 1, §§1, 2, & 3;Executive Order 10834, August 21, 1959; 24 F.R.6865; a military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a YELLOW FRINGE border on three sides. The president of the United States designates this deviation from the regular flag, by executive order, and in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief.

FLAG Martial Law;The Placing of a fringe on the national flag, the dimensions of the flag and the arrangement of the stars in the union are matters of detail not controlled by statute, but are within the discretion of the President as commander in Chief of the Army and Navy." 34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 83.

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a Yellow Fringe border on three sides."

FLAG Martial law; "The use of such a fringe is prescribed in current Army Regulation no. 260-10." 34 Ops. Atty. . Gen. 483, 485.

FLAG Martial law; "Ancient custom sanctions the use of the fringe on regimental colors and standards, but there seems to be no good reason or precedent for its use on other flags." The Adjutant General of the Army, March 28, 1924, (1925); 34 ()Ops. Atty. Gen. 483, 485.

DISPLAY OF MILITARY FLAG

National flags listed below are for indoor display and for use in ceremonies and parades. For these purposes the United States flag will be rayon banner cloth, trimmed on three sides with golden yellow fringe, 2 1/2 inches wide. It will be the same size as the flags displayed or carried with it.

Authorization for indoor display

Each military courtroom Any courtroom that displays these flags behind the Judge is a military courtroom. You are under military law and not constitutional law, or common law, or civil law, or statute law.

Restrictions "The following limitations and prohibitions are applicable to flags guidons, streamers, and components."

Unauthorized use of official flags, guidons, and streamers. Display or use of flags, guidons, and streamers or replicas thereof, including those presently or formerly carried by U.S. Army units, by other than the office, individual, or organization for which authorized, is prohibited except as indicated in below.

Use only by recognized United States Army division associations . . . ." United States Army Regulation AR 640-10, October 1, 1979

According to Army Regulations, (AR 840-10, Oct. 1, 1979.) "the Flag is trimmed on three sides with Fringe of Gold, 2 1/2 inches wide," and that, "such flags are flown indoors, ONLY in military courtrooms." And that the Gold Fringed Flag is not to be carried by anyone except units of the United States Army, and the United States Army division associations."

THE AUTHORITY FOR FRINGE ON THE FLAG IS SPECIFIED IN ARMY REGULATIONS,
BUT ONLY FOR THE NATIONAL (MILITARY) FLAG !
The U.S. Attorney General has stated: "The placing of a gold fringe on the national flag, the dimensions of the flag, and the arrangements of the stars in the union are matters of detail not controlled by statute, but are within the discretion of the President as Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy. . .ancient custom sanctions the use of fringe on regimental colors and standards, but there seems to be no good reason or precedent for its use on other flags. . .the use of such a fringe is prescribed in current Army Regulations, No. 260-10." (See 34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 483 & 485) The only statute or regulation, in the United States, prescribing a yellow fringed United States flag is Army Regulation No. 260-10, making it a military flag.

By Army Regulation 260-10, the gold fringe may be used only on regimental "colors," the President's flag, for military courts martial, and the flags used at military recruiting centers. "A military flag emblem of a nation, usually made of cloth and flown from a staff; FROM A MILITARY STANDPOINT flags are of two general classes...those flown from stationary masts over army posts, and those carried by troops in formation. The former are referred to by the general name of flags. The later are called colors when carried by dismounted troops. COLORS AND STANDARDS are more nearly square than flags and are made of silk, with a knotted FRINGE OF YELLOW ON THREE SIDES. . .USE OF A FLAG -- THE MOST GENERAL AND APPROPRIATE USE OF THE FLAG IS AS A NATIONAL SYMBOL OF AUTHORITY AND POWER." (National Encyclopedia, Vol. 4)

The adornments (FINIAL) on the top of the flag pole are for military use only. The gold eagle is for the use of the President of the United States only, and only in time of war. The gold spear ball is for military recruiting centers only. The gold acorn is for military parades only. (Army Regulation 840-10, chapter 8).

Colors -- "A flag, ensign, or standard borne in an army or fleet." (Webster's 1971)

Color -- An appearance, semblance, or simulacrum, as distinguished from that which is real. A prima facie or apparent RIGHT. Hence, a deceptive appearance; a plausible, assumed exterior, concealing a lack or reality; a disguise or pretext. (Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.)

Color of law -- The appearance or semblance, without the substance, of legal RIGHT. Misuse of power, possessed by virtue of state law and made possible only because wrongdoer is clothed with authority of state, is action taken under "color of state law." (Atkins v. Lanning, 415 F. Supp. 186, 188)

Colorable --That which is in appearance only, and not in reality, what it purports to be, hence counterfeit, feigned, having the appearance of truth. (Windle v. Flinn, 251 P. 2d 136, 146)

Colorable alteration -- One which makes no real or substantial change, but is introduced only as a subterfuge or means of evading the patent or copyRIGHTS law. (Black's 6th).

Colorable imitation -- In the law of trademarks, this phrase denotes such a close or ingenious imitation as to be calculated to deceive ordinary persons. (Black's 6th).

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THE LAW OF THE FLAG

The Law of the Flag, an International Law, which is recognized by every nation of the planet, is defined as:

" .. a rule to the effect that a vessel is a part of the territory of the nation whose flag she flies. The term is used to designate the RIGHTS under which a ship owner, who sends his vessel into a foreign port, gives notice by his flag to all who enter into contracts with the ship master that he intends the Law of that Flag to regulate those contracts, and that they must either submit to its operation or not contract with him or his agent at all."

Ref.: Ruhstrat v. People, 57 N.E. 41

By the doctrine of "four cornering" the flag establishes the law of the country that it represents. For example, the embassies of foreign countries, in Washington D.C., are "four cornered" by walls or fencing, creating an "enclave." Within the boundaries of the "enclave" of the foreign embassy, the flag of that foreign country establishes the jurisdiction and law of that foreign country, which will be enforced by the Law of the Flag and international treaty. If you enter an embassy, you will be subject to the laws of that country, just as if you board a ship flying a foreign flag, you will be subject to the laws of that flag, enforceable by the "master of the ship," (Captain), under the law of the flag. Everyone who boards a cruise ship should keep this in mind as most cruise ships are not operating under the American Flag, therefore any crime or other problems that you have while on board will be settled only under the laws of the foreign country as indicated by the ships flag.

Under Article IV, section 3, of the Constitution for the united States of America, no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State. So -- why have the Germans been allowed to erect a German enclave at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, under the Law of the Flag? Why have the judges of the State and Federal courts been allowed to erect foreign enclaves within our public courthouses under a foreign flag of the yellow fringe upon the soil of your state?

Under martial law, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag. The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the united States of America.

When you enter a courtroom displaying a gold or yellow fringed flag, you have just entered into a foreign country, and you better have your passport with you, because you may not be coming back to the land of the free for a long time. The judge sitting under a gold or yellow fringe flag becomes the "captain" or "master" of that ship or enclave and he has absolute power to make the rules as he goes. The gold or yellow fringe flag is your warning that you are leaving your Constitutionally secured RIGHTS on the floor outside the door to that courtroom.

This is exactly why so many judges are appointed, and not elected by the people. The Federal judges are appointed by the President, the national military commander in chief. The State judges are appointed by the Governors, the state military commanders. The judges are appointed because the courts are military courts and civilians do not "elect" military officers.

The gold-fringed flag only stands inside military courts that sit in summary court martial proceedings against civilians and such courts are governed in part by local rules, but more especially by "The Manual of Courts Martial", U.S., 1994 Ed., at Art. 99, (c)(1)(b), pg. IV-34, PIN 030567-0000, U.S. Government Printing Office, Wash. D.C. The details of the crimes that civilians can commit, that are classed as 'Acts of War,' cover 125 pages in the Manual of Courts Martial.

We just thought you would like to know, so that the next time you see this yellow fringed flag you will know what you are looking at and what it really means.   If you are in Spain and you see the National Flag of Spain, you would know that you are under the jurisdiction of Spain; and their laws govern you at this time.   You are officially NOTICED when you see their flag.   This is an admiralty law that says that all who see this flag understand they are governed by the laws of the country that this flag represents.   You SHOULD understand that the gold or yellow fringed flag signifies the same thing.  It is a notice to you that you are under the rules and regulations of the military force that is flying that flag.

Are you familiar with martial law?

Do you understand that most of our court systems fly this flag?

Do you think it is necessary to understand this difference?

Does your attorney understand what this flag means?

"It is an elementary rule of pleading, that a plea to the jurisdiction is a tacit (silent) admission that the court has a right to judge the case and is a waiver to all exception to the jurisdiction." (Girty v. Logan, 6 Bush KY, 8)

 

When ALL the official American flags are gone, our Country is gone.

You can watch over the ramparts by the dawn's early light, with bombs bursting in the air, until you go blind, but you will not see a proper Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Flag with its inherent RIGHTS.

You may see something that looks like an American Flag, but it is a shortened National Flag, for military use only. It is a colorable flag, a colorable alteration or imitation of the official American flag. Take your tape measure to determine what kind of a flag it really is. You will find that its proportion is shortened to only 1 X 1.66 or 1 X 1.5 and it is NOT the official size ratio of 1 X 1.9, almost twice as long as it is high.

Why do private businesses display National Flags with military adornments on the flag pole?

Why do banks display gold or yellow fringed flags, with gold adornments, in their lobbies?

Why have military "colors" been placed in our public schools?

Why are our children being taught under martial law, in foreign or military enclaves with no Constitutionally secured RIGHTS, under the Law of the Flag?

Why do most churches display gold or yellow fringed flags with gold adornments?
Does your Church have a pastor or a military chaplain?

Why are there no manufacturers that produce the correctly proportioned Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Civilian American Flags in a normal size range. Take your tape measure and try to find one. You may find one in 5'x9.5' or a 10'x19'. How often do you see a flag that large displayed?

Why do civilian courts display a military or foreign flag?

Why do civilian judges conduct court martials against civilians?

Why don't you ask them the reason?  Are they foreigners or just ignorant?

Here are the correct answers to all these questions :

The proper Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Civilian American Flag of the united States of America with no fringe takes precedence over all other flags, as it is the superior flag, and establishes the civil jurisdiction of the united States of America, and the laws made in pursuance thereof.  This civilian authority is mandated in almost all the STATE constitutions.  If you can find a proper Civilian American Flag then buy it, for you will then have something very powerful indeed.

However, a gold or yellow fringed military or foreign flag, displayed without the presence of a proper Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Civilian American Flag suspends the Constitution, by the international Law of the flag.  This takes away all your Rights and places you firmly under the military or martial law jurisdiction if you do not have your own proper Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Civilian American Flag.

Now, you know why you can not find a proper Title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 Civilian American Flag.  Because your civilian flag and law would be superior to the military law of the corporate UNITED STATES and they could no longer rule over you.

AMERICA HAS BEEN CONQUERED BY TACIT ADMISSION,

THE PEOPLE HAVE SURRENDERED!!
When two nations go to war, the object of the game is to capture the other guy's flag. When you go onto foreign soil, take the other guy's flag down and put yours up, you have captured the other guy's territory and put it under the law (Constitution) of your flag.

Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese philosopher and general, said that when the Art of War is brought to its highest pinnacle, the enemy will be conquered without the opposing armies ever having met in the field. By skillfully using the art of deception, and skillful use of agents to infiltrate the enemy's government, the enemy may be conquered without the enemy even knowing that it had been conquered.

WE HAVE BEEN CONQUERED!   WHERE IS THE VFW?   WHERE ARE THE VETERANS THAT PAID SO HIGH A PRICE FOR THE TITLE 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 AMERICAN FLAG AND THE LIBERTY AND COUNTRY THAT IT REPRESENTS?   WILL THESE MEN WHO SACRIFICED SO MUCH CONTINUE TO CONSENT TO THE FALL OF OUR NATION BY THEIR CONTINUED SILENCE?   HAVE THEY CAPITULATED BY TACIT AGREEMENT?

Capitulation -- the act or agreement of surrendering upon negotiated or simulated terms. (Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.)

Tacit -- Existing, inferred, or understood without being openly expressed or stated; implied by silence or silent acquiescence, as a tacit agreement or tacit understanding. Done or made in silence, implied or indicated, but not actually expressed. Manifested by the refraining from contradiction or objection; inferred from the situation and circumstance, in the absence of express matter. (Black's Law Dictionary 6th Ed.)

Tacit admissions -- An acknowledgment or concession of a fact inferred from either silence or from the substance of what one has said.

Maxim of Law -- "Tacita quaedam habentur pro expressis" -- THINGS UNEXPRESSED ARE SOMETIMES CONSIDERED AS EXPRESSED.

IT  "IS"  TREASON

Our elected officials, judges, county commissioners, city councils, school boards and school administrators, police, the State Legislators, the Governor, the U.S. Congress, and even the President have all committed acts of CONSTRUCTIVE TREASON.

Constructive Treason -- Treason imputed to a person by law from his conduct or course of action, though his deeds taken severally do not amount to actual treason. (Black's 6th) also defined as: "..an attempt to establish treason by circumstantiality, and not by the simple genuine letter of the law, and therefore is highly dangerous to public freedom." C.J.S., vol. 87, p. 910

The judges, with deliberate intent, and by overt judicial acts, are surrendering the Constitution of the united States of America to a foreign state/power as is denoted by the yellow or gold fringe flag in the courtroom, thereby causing any party appearing before his court a loss of their Constitutional RIGHTS.  Judges or other officers that swear an oath and affirmation to support and defend the Constitution for the united States of America and then surrender and erect 'foreign enclaves' upon the soil of the several States in breach of Article IV, Section 3, ARE GUILTY, by definition, of constructive treason, against the People.

When all of the title 4 U.S.C. 1, 2 official American Flags are gone, the united States of America and our precious Constitution are dead.

If you do not think that the flag is important, why then, did an entire battalion of Marines, in early 1942, fight to the last man defending that flag against the Japanese?

  In early 1942, in the Philippines, a young officer named Lt. Ramsey, under the command of Gen. Wainwright, led the last mounted cavalry charge in the history of the U.S. Army. Lt. Ramsey and his men fought so viciously and with such determination that, against overwhelming odds, the Japanese were routed, buying precious time to enable the American forces to retreat to the peninsula of Bataan. When the American forces were finally forced by starvation to surrender to the Japanese, Lt. Ramsey refused to surrender and slipped through the Japanese lines with a handful of his men and continued to make war against the Japanese. By hiding in the mountains and jungle, Lt. Ramsey, though poorly equipped, was able to train a guerrilla army and wreak havoc on the Japanese until Gen. McArthur returned.

Lt. Ramsey and his men did not surrender their flag !
Why do you surrender yours?

... in response to Since you decided not to answer me direc..., posted by Lynn on Dec 23, 2002

It was a long read and rather interesting.  But it should be one country boy to another, because I grew up in a town of less than 5,000 and it was very rural southern town.  
   I read much of what you said, and because in addition to my travels, I have take much interest in the law of the sea and the need for flags.  I have sailed my boat to several foreign countries, including one communist country, and did a little law practice in the area of international law in the maritime area some time ago.   The history of the flag I also knew.
    The art of war is required reading for many corporate exectives, and even some lawyers.  So I am very familiar with that and have read it.  
   But you used the term Marial law, and I did not, so while you are at it, check out its definition. That alone will indicate that we are far from it.  Like it or not, in spite of 9/11  we  still operate in a global economy, and that will continue it seems.  Finding ways to operate in that economic world, will in some countries blur the sense of nationalism, as we have seen with the former soviet republics, which will likely be better off economically than Russia, and will enter the EU  much earlier.  Anyone who has travelled to Europe in the last 6 months, as I have, has witnessed a dramatic change.  WE have made efforts at similar economic adjustments, but frankly europe had to if it were going to compete in this global economy. If not, the furture there would be grim.  Once some of the issue and problems south of our boarder are resloved, I suspect we will see much of the same between the US, Canada, and Mexico, as this may be the only way to compete effectively with the growth of the largest market yet to be known to man.  China.  
   Perhaps the bump in the road has been 9/11 which for good reason has caused many of us to place our national security concerns ahead of economic concerns. Only a novice would not know how very fragil our way of life is in this country as much of it operates on our  faith in our institutions.  Once that faith is challenged, we would experience much of what is going on in Argentina.  
  In the long run, I have to believe that the American spirit would not allow prolonged infringment of rights, even for the sake of national security.   I think that is the inner strength that will be tapped by our people when our backs are against the wall.    This seems to be our history, and I suspect our future as well.

Robert d.

... in response to Re: Since you decided not to answer me d..., posted by Robert D on Dec 23, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

First, a town of 5,000 would be a metropolis to where I live and grew up. Less than 1.5k in the town. I rub shoulders with people from all walks of life in my work and personal life. I always strive to be true to my roots. To me, the executive officers, who I conduct business with, put their pants on no different from the farmer or logger that I sit beside in the cafe for a meal. In fact, I would rather rub shoulders with a farmer or logger than most executives that I know------at least there are no obvious signs of megalomania there and the truth is more often spoken. While other matters have kept me from traveling recently, I have done a fare share of traveling myself and have a few international accounts. Glad you got a boat, I always like to see people do well. The main thing is that a man can sleep well, knowing he has done right by his clients and everyone he encounters.

Apparently you have some understanding of the subject matter in my last post, but you still failed to answer the right question. I did not ask if "we the people" were under martial law, as you so implied. I "did" ask what law our court systems were under: (a) martial, (b) commercial, (c) maritime, or (d) Constitutional (as in the Constitution of the united States of America)

And your answer is...............

 "Only a novice would not know how very fragil our way of life is in this country as much of it operates on our faith in our institutions. Once that faith is challenged, we would experience much of what is going on in Argentina."

 A challenging of a institution is the "only" way to make it strong and keep it strong. What has happened in Argentina is the rude awakening that we are on the preface of here, the realization that our currency is on the verge of becoming what it is really worth (about 2.6 cents per piece of paper), just like in Argentina. If your money has no backing, what is it worth? 2.6 cents each for the paper, printing, and ink.

"In the long run, I have to believe that the American spirit would not allow prolonged infringment of rights, even for the sake of national security." I hope you are right about this. But if you read army field manual "FM 3-19.40" published August 1, 2001, it sure makes me feel secure about expressing my "right of free speech", read it all and see what you think, especially since it "was" written "before" 9/11/01.

The truth is thru the UN, our government has sold us out.
And on that note, I give you:

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Pub7277.htm

Just in case you failed to read the post to Ken W above.

Still waiting on the answer about the courts. But, we both know that as with all lawyers, you have sworn allegiance to the the "court system" first and it would go against policy to discuss such things.

For sure, all my ancestors weren't just whistling "Dixie", they believed in it, I still do,

Lynn

P.S. Hope you have a nice Christmas and a blessed New Year.

... in response to Re: Since you decided not to answer me d..., posted by Robert D on Dec 23, 2002

One other point.   The tug of war between strict constructionist views of the consititution and those who believe in a more flexible view of the document, has gone on now almost from the beginning of the document.   The fact that we have from time to time felt the need to amend the document is an example of how we add to it to assure that it meets the needs of our country.   It is however, something that we should take great pride in.   Think about it.  A document written before TV, radio, or mass communication, before our country extended from east to west coast, through war, including civil war,  through good and bad economic times including two depressions, has survived and is as relevant today as it was when it was written.  I know of no government today that can say that about a written document governing any other country.
   As a practitioner, I work with that document in one fashion or another very often, and frankly I think most americans take it for granted.    So when I read post of people saying we have fewer freedoms than in their countries, (including some former communist countries) I have difficulty believing that such persons are responding reality, or just their personal and perhaps limited understanding of how and why our system works.
    So this is why I am more positive about our country and do not share the "headed down the tubes" view that some have.  
     Robert D.

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

What am I wrong about? Facts please. If you say I'm wrong, I'll accept that, but only on condition of substantuated facts.

Why was the threat made in the first place? Could it be because of something our government did?

Check a few facts about opium production going back up after we kicked butt in Afghanistan. The new oil deals there that couldn't have happened before. The fact that CNN documented numerous intelligence agencies knowing about 9/11 and did nothing. The fact that most of the people who died in the WTC were pee-ons, not key people and what about the relatively small number who did die in relation to the purported average daily attendance---did they all have the tummy-ache and not come to work? Could the one who gave their lives been sacrifices?

Oh, that's right you were saying I was wrong about something in my previous post.

Sorry, you have the floor.

... in response to Exactly........., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

...actually I think you are in a position of defense - you have not offered any references to support any claim made thus far, and have fallen victim to a few logical breaks as well. I think you still have the floor. :)

... in response to Errr..., posted by Ken W on Dec 20, 2002

Where did you come up with that? The question of where and how I am wrong about the courts being held under "martial" law and mention of maritime/commercial law was the post line that led to this.

... in response to Exactly........., posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

Well, let's see.   From the writings of the people who claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, well what did they say was the reason?  The first reason was because we disgraced their holy land by our presence on Saudi soil, (they really want us out of that entire part of north west africa)  So because we "insulted them" they killed people on the USS Cole,our us offical offices in several countries, and later since we did not get the message, killed $3,000 people in New York.  Yes you must be right.  It was all our fault.   To think we would insult someone so badly that they feel the need to kill close to 4,000 of us.  Certainly since we did nothing after each attack until the very last one.   Perhaps we should apologize to them, hug them and they will be our friend.  I think not. The only thing we can do for those people is to die, and frankly I am not going to do that for them.
    Later, Bin Laudin, revised his list of causes for the attack and added our support for the Jewish state.   This came more than a month after the attack.  Two questions come to mind.  If they are insulted that we are in Saudi Arabia, then why not attack the govenment of Saudi Arabia that invited us, and insists that we stay?   Or attack us in Saudi Arabia.   If they disagree with our policy in the Middle east, why attack New York?  If it is jews they hate then they could jost go and help those radicals in Palastine, who seem to have no shortage of people who desire to be sent on to paradise.  
   Later Bin Laudin, three months later said the attack was to prevent us from achieving our goal of world domination.   Hummmmmm that is a good one.  Let us see, we sent our young men and women in harms way in the former Yugoslavia, to keep Muslims from being killed by the thousands, and prevent another holocost, and this is the thanks we get.  WE also supported them in their fight against the Soviets, which they could not have won without us and withing 5 years we are infidels.
   In short they hate us not because of our policies, but becasue we are non believers just that simple.    
   One last point.   I was once in Grad school, and did a masters program before I went to law school.   That was about the time of the kicking out of the Shaw of Iran, and we had about 6 Iraniang students on a full ride to study here.  The american students, myself included, really liked the iranian students.  Many had language problems and we took it on ourselves to help them with class work when translation was a problem.   We often ate together, visited each others homes or apartments etc.  In short we became very good friends.   The the Shaw was taken out of power.  These same people resigned from school and insisted on returning to assist in the "Revolution"   As far as we were concerned, good, as it seems the Shaw was not that great a fellow and we knew nothing of this radical old fellow that took over for him.   We offered to help them move. "No thank you"   WE asked if we could do anything for them  "no"  Over the next few says before they all left they stopped speaking to us, were very rude etc.   Finally, I just asked the one I was closest to "say man what's up with the attitude?"  He said you Americans can not understand because you are non believers and are unclean.  To which I responded, you are welcome to you religion and that does not bother me a bit, but unclean?  Hmmmm.  In short we were non believers in a world in his mind that should only contain believers.  The rest were worthless.  That sir is what we are in the eye of those radicals who attack us.  And no matter what we do, that will never change, and they will hate us and want us dead.  
   So I know what Bin Laudin said, I know what he says he believes, as we have heard it from his own mouth, and frankly I can not think of anything we Americans could ever do to deserve 3,000 dead in New York.   Nothing.
Just seems like a large price to pay for an insult!!!!!  Talk about mob mentality, is that mob mentality perhaps?  3,000 dead because of an insult?
Sorry about the bad typing job, but the blinds in my office just fell and the sun is on directly into my monitor.  So I can see very little of it.
Robert D.

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

Famous 20 year plus Mayor, Richard J. Daley of Chicago would say to those who disagreed with his plans, "Well, I have just told you what I want to do, how I want to do it, and why.  Since you disagree, you must have a better plan.  Please tell us what you would do."  So...if you disagree with an idea of someone's, just have a better plan...or keep quiet!

... in response to Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by Globetrotter on Dec 20, 2002

of Patriotism is: Don't ask questions, just do as you are told.

... in response to Today's official definition............, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

Nope you missed his point.  He meant Ask questions all you want, but if you disagree, please offer an alternative so that we can do a better job for you.   It is easy just to disagree

... in response to Re: Today's official definition............, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

Exactly, exactly right!!!

... in response to Today's official definition............, posted by Lynn on Dec 20, 2002

I assume that you participate on the local level, which is a good place to begin.  I do, and have dressed down the mayor of my town in  public forums, which was recorded and played on TV for a week.  You may also try to convince your congressman that corporate "donations" soft money or otherwise....gee, didn't they used to be called "bribes?"

But, since you seem concerned, I assume that you make your voice heard.  Just think if you could convince 10,000 others to do the same thing, and they convinced others.
Participation, participation!!!

... in response to Then, I assume that you participate?, posted by Globetrotter on Dec 20, 2002

I do participate in local and state levels working with PACs. Recently I took time off during the week to dirve to DC and participate in a rally demanding the government to answer redress of greivances -- which is garanteed in the Constitution and to obey the Constitution in regards to Bush usurping the power from Congress regarding the War Powers Act and other issues. Signed petitions were hand delivered to "all" members of the Congress and the Senate, then 4 days later to Bush.
I don't play arm-chair quarterback.

... in response to Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by Globetrotter on Dec 20, 2002

Thanks

... in response to Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

" Government is not reason;
it is not eloquence;
it is force! Like fire,
it is a dangerous servant
and a fearful master!"

       George Washington

... in response to Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by BURKE89 on Dec 20, 2002

And the solution to our current crisis is?

... in response to Re: Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

Robert,

I believe, that is a question this forum isn't capable of handling, nor appropriate for. However, I'm rather handy, of putting forth a couple for you:

1.) Why do we have 155,000 illegal immigrants, from the region in question (middle east)?

2.) Why does the bureaucracy, superfluous of party afilliations, continue along this path?

3.) Why does our nation not base our immigration policy on skilled individuals (which, by the way, wouldn't effect many lads in this quest)?

4.) Why are we investing billions of $'s on border checkpoints, in Afganistan, while our on borders lay prostate?

If you would like to answer those queries, than grand!  If not, here's my simple solution:

CONTROL ONE'S BORDERS, and shunt a bureaucracy gone wild.

Well, why you ask: because Russian Guy's & Gal's wonder why not!

For freedom,

Vaughn

... in response to Why, did I know you would say that..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 20, 2002

You make a good point.   I think it is funny that even liberal Democrats, like Diane Fienstein, from of all places Northern California, now realize that our steep population growth has staggered some state economies and threatens much of our future if nothing more, than because it helps to support even greater grown and more strain on our resources both environmental and monotary.  
If we were really worst than the the former Communist state, we would not have as many illegals living here, and would not allow as many people come to this country every year.

But you are right, this is not the board for this topic.  Too bad, because I was enjoying the banter.  Discussion like this hurt no one, and indeed help an good exchange of ideas within and atmosphere of respect.   I wish all of us were more interested in our country and talked on these issues rationally more often, regardless of the anyone views. (yet another reason we are not like the former communist state)

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Why, did I know you would say that....., posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

that, for anyone with a moral compass, to compare our Republic with the flotsam of history (as you ably stated), deserves to be intellectually discredited.

On immigration:

It is indeed interesting, to see the likes of Diane Fienstein discussing the demerits of this flood... & its decimation upon of our social services, at least in California. Perhaps, the majority of the country has not experienced this joy, as of yet. They too, will relish the largest demographic population shift in recorded history.

The conundrum is: the left wants votes & the right wants cheap labor. It really is as simple as that. Then, throw the the noxious concept of blanket-equality into the mix, and what do you get? Its an age-old issue that the majority of Americans want solved. Will it be solved? No! Why, you say, if 70%+ of Americans view it as an issue, superfluous of 9/11? Look above, my friend!

Hmm... might I suggest:

Vdare.com ( the links rock)

 or...

http://amconmag.com/11_18/cover4.html  

The joy of Lewiston Maine, and their residents will not concern us, will it? (Carleton Coon, might have a different opinion on that one. LOL...)

Merry Christmas,

Vaughn

... in response to Well said! I might add..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 22, 2002

You are dead on.   It is strange that when I was a kid, zero population growth was the thing we were working to accomplish.   And we did it, then came the 1million illegals into the country, and that was the end of that.  This may be the undoing of the country in the long run, but perhaps not if our economy continues to grow, but if not, well it will certainly lead to difficult times, and the backlash is going to be very difficult for some to stomach.

Robert d.

... in response to Re: Why, did I know you would say that....., posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

Robert, your thoughtful remarks are appreciated. Some of the comments in the above thread strain credulity. Art Bell is probably a hero to some of them.

... in response to Re: Re: Why, did I know you would say th..., posted by rojak on Dec 20, 2002

.

... in response to Who the heck is Art Bell? n/t, posted by Lynn on Dec 21, 2002

Lynn,

He's a late-night radio host who "specializes" in rather odd topics. UFO's, mind-control, and a whole slew of strange subjects fill out his format.

He tends to attract some real loonies. So, any inference to being a follower of his, well... could only be taken as an insult.

Merry Christmas,

Vaughn

... in response to Re: Re: Re:  Martial Law, posted by Robert D on Dec 20, 2002

i will never bring about a problem without my version of a solution. I always have people telling me what is wrong with what I do-they just never give me a viable solution. But you are correct-if you are going to complain about it, be prepared to do something about it!
Joe