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Let's face it guys, whether we like it or not David has certainly increased the level of board interest of late.  Now, my birthday was yesterday, my wife Tania's birthday was December 14, so we had a joint birthday dinner with a fairly sizeable group, including several RW friends, ranging from the happily married, divorced from AM, to single.  Somehow (after several glasses of wine) the topic got on to David and I related the story as best I could to the group of RW.  The consensus of the RW group was:  1)  If David was basically a good guy, Natasha was probably a prostitute (i.e. tattoos/working at strip bar) as only prostitutes don't care about a neat home or 2)  If David was a jerk, then Natasha's reactions - not cleaning the house and ultimately leaving - was a reaction to abusive behavior from him.  The one thing that was most impressive to the RW - which has certainly been my observation - was that a RW would NEVER allow a house to get messy.  So, in their view, she must be a prostitute or she was punishing him for bad behavior.  If it was the former, they agreed with the consensus of the Board that David should have recognized these red flags much earlier.  FWIW.

... in response to RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by Charles on Dec 20, 2002

The fact that she was from Moscow but living in Prague should have told a thinking man that something was seriously amiss. Something so significant that she should be avoided. The probabilities of why she was there are not nice to think about...

When I started delving into a FSUW search two years ago there is one thing that Jack posted (or told me in a phone conversation, can't remember which) that I consider to be  the single most best piece of advice ever given: if the lady does not live with her momma, the odds are that she is not a "traditional" woman - or worse. My subsequent experience has shown me that this is true.

So to the searchers out there I will say this: be VERY careful pursuing a relationship with a woman who does not live with her parents (or at least mother if father has died or is divorced from momma). In Russia and Ukraine IT IS NOT NORMAL for an unmarried woman to not live with her parents. The overwhelming majority of the time it means that she is living a lifestyle that her family would not approve of. The kind of lifestyle that an AM is not looking for in a woman.

And yes, FSUW who have tatoos are usually involved in that lifestyle....

Ya reap what ya sow!

WmGO

... in response to Tatoos & Not living with Momma , posted by WmGo on Dec 20, 2002

Excellent point!!!  If you don't meet her family you're much more likely to be on the wrong side of the divorce statistics.

... in response to Re: Tatoos & Not living with Momma , posted by Charles on Dec 20, 2002

Charles and Wm.  I have no argument with Wm's logic; it sounds pretty good given that most children in FSU can't afford to leave parents home.

But, then when I think of Charles' statement; I am not so sure of the cause and effect implied.  What is the probability that AM and AW don't meet the others parents?  And what has the result been on our divorce rate.

JR

... in response to Charles and WmGo, posted by juio99 on Dec 20, 2002

JR,
I don't know. However, it stands to reason that it is a fundamental error in relationships with members of the opposite sex to fail to see for oneself how they interact with, talk about and feel about their family. This is because,in terms of human relations, it is normal for people to be the closest with their family as opposed to non family. There are many valid conclusions to be drawn about a person who is close or not close with their family. And let me say that sometimes lack of closeness is because of the irrational or unreasonable conduct of the parents, not the adult child. I think that that also needs to be realized. But in the FSU things are a little more cut and dried on this than here in the USA.

... in response to Charles and WmGo, posted by juio99 on Dec 20, 2002

A marriage has a much higher chance of success if there is positive family support from both sides.  I think that is perhaps even more so in the case of AM/RW marriages, because you must remember that your fiance is leaving her family to come to the U.S.  Your wife will be much more comfortable with you if she knows that her mother is happy she has found happiness.  By the same token, when she comes to America she will adjust much better if your parents are supportive.  That's not to suggest it's a guarantor of success or failure, but it certainly is, IMHO, can be a positive or negative factor.

... in response to Adios guys.  I've enjoyed as much of thi..., posted by Griffin on Dec 20, 2002

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... in response to RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by Charles on Dec 20, 2002

Charles, and please keep in mind, after doing more things for her than I've ever done for any woman before by a hundred times, she betrays me with another guy, AND calls the police and makes a completely false report that I abused her.

Think about that, who would do such a thing? And the ironic thing is, when she did this, it was her who kicked me in knee pretty hard, I simple stood up and walked out of the place, she then called the police and claimed I abused her, and she had bruises all over her arms.

Believe me, I never laid one hand on this girl, and if I ever did, she would have a lot worse than bruises on her arms believe me. She deserved for me to hit her, but I would never lower myself to her level.

But anybody who would call the police on you and lie to have you put into jail, that type of person is extremely dangerous.

I would go up to this 23 year old bartender and kick his butt for going out with a married woman, but I don't need to, what Natasha is going to do to him is going to be far worse than anything I could ever do. I tried to warn him, but he won't listen, that will be his downfall.

It's too bad that girls like Natasha even exist, she is going to destroy a lot of men, because she is really good at what she does.

David

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

You may not be one of those guys that can play a women but I suspect she'll get her share of getting used along the way. She may last longer then a one night stand just because she will appear exotic, but your average player will send her down the road after a short time, and if what you say is true about her even the non-player will send her down the road once he sees who she is even more so sense he hasn't spent a lot of effort in meeting her.

Mike

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

Davey, a great men, named  Sacha Guitry, once said that the
worse thing that you can do to the guy, who took your woman, IS TO LET HIM HAVE HER.  It is really a cruel thing to do.

All is quiet on the western front.................

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

got that tune in your head now huh?
Joe

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

David,

She is not going to destroy a lot of men. You are looking at it all wrong my friend. Have you forgotten that you live on Planet Earth? Most people are pretty low on the evolutionary scale. Just a fact. To survive you have to be able to tell the wheat from the chaff. Until you do learn this, things keep going wrong plain and simple.

This lady is not going to destroy a lot of men David -- she will teach them a lesson. However, she is not going to benefit in the long run for volunteering to be the teacher and in that is the lesson she will need to learn. However, the chances of her learning her lesson as compared to you learning yours is remote.

But David, there is good news in all of this -- it will usually only be the men who need to learn the lesson that will allow her into their lives for any significant time period. Women like this are not going to go away as long as there are men in need of her educational services.

Hey the real world is not any different, it is just that this is a woman. When men do not scrutinize women --- their character, ethics, moral values in the same way they would a business transaction they are standing up, holding their arms open and saying screw me and, if you won't do it, I will find someone else who will.

David, would you have tolerated a male roommate to be like she was in the home? Of course not. So why would you tolerate this from a woman - a woman who is supposed to be acting as though she is starting to build a life with you? You need to ask yourself that and change it or, another teacher will possibly cross your path.

Man, after reading your list of the warning signs that you had, then when her actions were supporting everything was not right with her, you just blindly shifted your role from a husband/lover to the role of father taking care of a child.

I am sorry but I do not think that you can get more of a message than that most of the time. I think you need to keep doing this until you get it right. What do you think?

... in response to Re, posted by thesearch on Dec 20, 2002

......now that we know some details it's obvious the signs were blatant.

Davey, did it ever occur to you during all this time that a woman in love with her man would never behave that way? Simple eh? That should've been enough to send in the clowns right then and there.

... in response to Well said...., posted by LP on Dec 20, 2002

Oh great, now you tell me, thanks a lot :-)

... in response to Re, posted by thesearch on Dec 20, 2002

What do I think?

I think you are right, 100% right.

It's just going to take me a while to get over this, that's all.

6 months from now I'll be ready to look for another girl, and I owe it to myself to travel back to the FSU and talk with some girls to see what I think of them.

This time no matter what, I'll be extremely careful.

Thanks for your post my friend.

David

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

THAT much is pretty obvious. If she does this to ANYONE else the same would apply. Some guys are just suckers man. They walk around either deceived or in denial

... in response to RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by Charles on Dec 20, 2002

Thanks Charles, that does make me feel better.

When Ken's wife Lena came over, she mentioned something about our place not being kept very well, and that how this was abnormal for a RW. Natasha got very angry at her saying this.

Another girl who's name is Natasha who works at Costco where I lived, she had only talked with my Natasha twice, and for not very long at that. And that's why I was extremely surprised when my Natasha and I got into a fight after she turned on me when her mother came to see us, I consulted the Natasha at Costco and she told me, "David, both my husband John and I knew that you two would not work out, your Natasha is a very selfish girl"

I was shocked she could know this after only meeting her twice, I to this day wonder what Natasha said to her in order for her to know this.

I wish I had her insight, I would do a lot better if I did.

Here is the problem with our relationship in a nutshell, Natasha would never help me to do anything, she was not involved with the relationship in any way, from where we should go, to cleaning the house, to paying the bills, to adhering to the budget, to watering the plants she bought. I was the one who had to do everything month after month, I grew very tired of this and would constantly get angry at her for spilling wine on carpet, spilling cranberry juice on the carpet, not being able to find spoons because she has them all stashed under her side of the bed, etc.

When I would get angry with her, she did not like that, and she thought I was using her as a slave if I wanted her to rinse out her own dishes.

This sounds like a joke doesn't it? What I say can't possibly be factual right?

If you think that, I understand completely, because even myself I don't believe it.

But I will give Natasha credit for one thing, she was a great cook, the best I've ever known, but she couldn't cook without making a complete disaster of the area, spilling everything, etc.

She would do things I couldn't stand for, I got angry, she didn't like that, our relationship could not go anywhere, it's really that simple, we were not right for each other at all.

I sure would love to find a nice normal RW, that's all I wanted from the beginning.

Thanks for the post.

David

... in response to Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

David,

If the other Natasha saw who your wife was in just a few minutes - something that it took you 2.5 years to see and only after you got wacked ---- what does that tell you?

First of all, you can not at this point depend on yourself to correctly asses someone as to what their character is yet. You need to depend on others who are not biased to give you their impressions. The incredible thing about this is, usually guys who can not see the forest for the trees relative to women, refuse, even get mad when they are given good advice and, for sure they rarely take any advice.

The bottom line is that if you have pride in yourself first (relative to women), you are less likely to let this happen.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's perceptions of David FWIW, posted by thesearch on Dec 20, 2002

Although I think I could do better this time, I still think you are right about that, next time I will consult more opinions from others, especially other girls.

David

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's perceptions of David FW..., posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

You have an apology to make to everyone on this forum that you have insulted, before, I think, you post again.  Don't you think???

Also, I have a question for you.  Do you have a sheepskin from a college or university, or are you just a self proclaimed, self taught genius?

... in response to Hey, Man................., posted by Globetrotter on Dec 20, 2002

I apoligize to everyone on this board, I'm sorry.

No I don't, I have very little doubt my knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit, because most of the time my knowledge comes from what seems like nowhere. I may read some information and somehow someway understand it on a higher level then it was written.

And I think it's a truism to say that the more knowledge you have, the more your able to acquire, or maybe it's better to say that the more understanding you have, the more you can understand, since all knowledge is connected in a very complex way, just like what we can learn from quantum chaos.

So in reality I'm not smart at all, it's only that I have been shown the truth about many things.

David

... in response to Re: Hey, Man................., posted by John LV on Dec 20, 2002

Apology accepted.

Get into a university (maybe UNLV) and take CLEP tests to bypass 2 years of studies, and get a degree in whatever...maybe physics, and teach, or ???.  

Also, by now you probably realize that your last "wife" endeavor, trying to form an interpersonal relationship with a woman, is the most difficult thing you (or I) will ever do in our lifetime.

My,my, how this forum has changed in such a short time, to realize that the odds of making a life with a one week (or one month) "wonder woman" is probably not the best way to go.  For those who still think so...if bullsh1t was music, you would be a symphony!