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The men here had better prepared themselves for some very harsh criticisms from their fiancee's.  The criticizing will be directed at our country, culture and just about anything "American."  There was a natural process to this as I see it.  At first, your honey will be so overwhelmed by her new country, that she will just be like a sponge: absorbing as much as possible.  No time to analyze or have strong opinions at this stage.
    The second stage of your woman's acclamation to America will be the hardest.  She will know SOME of the things that make America tick, but not the entire story.  She will be dazed and confused by the parts she will know, not quite understanding them.  This is when she will start to compare life in her FSU country to America.  Right or wrong, she will begin to hurl criticisms for life here.  (BTW, my wife has made some very valid points of our societies shortcommings)  This is also the stage that you will need to grow some very thick skin.  It would be easy to take her criticisms too personal and have a debate turn into a fight.  To have a closed mind on your part, could spell disaster for your relationship.  You need tolerance and understanding to get you through this phase of your wife's "Americanization."  Just knowing that her opinions will become more "tempered" with time should help you.
    As it is now, in our relationship, there is a lot less criticizing of America, but there is still some very valid disappointments she has with our society in general.  Again, having a closed mind could spell doom to your relationship.  Any type of mindset that everything here is better than there, will just make things worse.
KenC

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

Since my wife arrived here in Kent she dosen't have any criticisms about life in England, except all the overweight people and the pre-cooked rubbish in the supermarkets. Rather it was me who was voicing criticisms about her country until I began to slowly understand their history and way of life better.

Will you tell us what faults your wife found with life in the US?

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

What were the "valid disappointments"?

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

Thanks Ken. I wrote about this a few months back on a thread called - I hate America. Despite our shortcomings ,America is still the best country in the world. That's why we have over 1 million immigrants a year. We must remember that America is still a relatively young country in relation to Europe and still in the process of evolution. The strength of democracy is its ability to be self critical and to adapt to change.

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Cold Warrior on Sep 17, 2002

Where are they coming from?

... in response to 1 million immigrants a year, posted by Pordzhik on Sep 17, 2002

A lot of Mexicans cross the border illegally and make up much of the immigration.  Those that cross in the southern deserts can die if they get lost.  It's still well over 100 degrees F at this time of year during the day but in the 70s at night.  We have a lot immigrate from Cuba via rafts, India (mostly professionals), Chinese, middle easterners, Pakastanis, Phillapinos and some Europeans.  So pretty much everywhere.  

Although mexicans want to freely cross our border I read that their country shoots people that cross their southern border trying to make it to the US.

... in response to Mostly Mexico, posted by BubbaGump on Sep 18, 2002

Hey Bubba,
I'll post something along this vein on Saturday. It ties in to the "grey-eyed" quest as well. So, it may provide some intelligent conversation on this sometimes, verboten subject matter. The statistics are rather provoking and startling too. Gotta catch a flight...
Vaughn

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Cold Warrior on Sep 17, 2002

Cold,
Where some guys will get into trouble with their future FSU women is when they insist on keeping their minds closed to ANY criticism of America.  It may be the best, but it aint perfect.
KenC

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Cold Warrior on Sep 17, 2002

I agree, and it seems most often what I hear in the negative area is that we are perceived as greedy.   In reality we just work very very hard to make it here.   It seems when I was in Russia most people are much more laid back about work and performance.   I found the same thing true in Cuba.   So I think from the outside, many people think we are just spoilled, and have no appreciation for art music, etc.   I do not believe that but I  do understand many Americans are too busy making a living, to enjoy some of the things we have here.    

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Re: Tolerance, posted by Robert D on Sep 17, 2002

I want a nice car, a nice house and financial security.  I assume most russian women want the same thing.  I don't want to be called greedy for working hard and succeeding.  Not many countries work nearly as hard as we do in America.  That's why their countries suck and ours doesn't.  There is a lot of failure in the US, but compared to most countries we work together and get things done.  I wish more corporate leaders would keep that in mind before sending jobs overseas.  

I really don't understand the Russian idea of what is greedy.

... in response to Re: Re: Tolerance, posted by Robert D on Sep 17, 2002


My ex-girlfriend in Kiev once told me – Americans always say ‘ no problem man, just throw more cash into and it will sort itself out.’ LOL. We are perceived as being able to buy ourselves out of any situation.

As for being greedy, hey, what’s wrong with wanting a nice house, car etc. This is the so called American dream that most of the world aspire to. Drive around any Latin America city and you’ll be hard pressed to find an office light on after 6.00 pm. In America, hard work can translate into material wealth.

This is not true for most countries. In México they say – Si el trabajo duro te hacia rico, los burros serian millonarios. Which means – if hard work made you rich, the donkeys would be millionaires. It is true that hard physical work may not make you rich. Wealth is created by innovation and ideas and most of the technology that the world enjoys today is MADE IN AMERICA. However try telling that to Bin Laden and Company. I say d**n them, I’m laughing all the way to the bank.

... in response to Greediness, posted by Cold Warrior on Sep 17, 2002

I agree.  I do not think I am greedy, but I did work two jobs for 10 years. (not any more)   But also, we can get something in return for our hard work here.   It is not so true everywhere.    Also, here if you do not work you can not take care of yourself.   So I think some of the critics just do not understand us.   But I think I enjoy hearing others perspectives of us.  Nothing wrong with a little self examination every now and then.   If someone is off base I just tell them and move on.

Robert D.

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

I guess I'm lucky?  My wife has no real criticisms of life here in the USA.  Most of her wrath falls upon Russia and Russians (mafia, government, etc.) for screwing up that country and its future prospects.

The one thing she does talk about all the time is the "biggie piggies" (women) she sees all the time in the supermarkets and shopping malls.  She thinks it is a disgrace and that it is no surprise AM want RW, since they look good in clothes as opposed to AW in sweat suits (too bad the suits don't work!).

Stevo

... in response to Well..., posted by Stevo on Sep 17, 2002

Biggie Piggie! I love it. I can just hear it with the Russian accent!

Interestingly enough, my fiance spends any criticism (and it is small - she's not a very critical person) on her current government.

It is peculiar, but I remember reading that one of the main reasons that communism succeeded in Russia to begin with was that there was no strong middle class. This vacuum left the lower class very jealous of the upper class, and when the spark was ignited, the revolution came.

Now, it appears that the problem in the FSU is that there is a very small middle class.

They went from the Czars and aristocracy... to communist leaders... to the few rich (and Mafia)...

Until someone figures out how to get a valid "middle class" in the FSU, there will always be turmoil there, it seems.

But I am no political scholar...

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

Very good post.   I would be interested to know what shortcomings she notices about the US.   Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this.  

Makes perfect sense.

Robert D.

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Robert D on Sep 17, 2002

You can add:

Many doctors are not particularly interested in helping you unless it is a billable event.

Many common remedies that are over-the-counter there are prescription only here.

Health insurance and billing .... no more need be said.

My wife's and my worst fights have usually involved some illness/ailment or other need to interact with the health care system.

... in response to Some More Shortcomings, posted by SteveM on Sep 20, 2002

Yeah, that "prescription only" thing bugs me too.

I remember when Advil was coming on the market and a Doctor friend of mine was really upset about it. He couldn't believe they would put such a powerful pain killer ont he market.

"Why," I asked. "Is it terribly addictive?"

"No. But Americans don't need to be able to buy something like that!"

I think about that every time my back goes out and I have to pop 800 MGs of the stuff. Used to be I'd need a doctor visit and perscription for that...

One thing, though, is that my fiance distrusts doctors tremendously. So, that maybe has something to do with your wife's hatred of our medical system...

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Robert D on Sep 17, 2002

Robert,
Much of Lena's disappointment comes from the lack of socialization in Americans.  Most Americans live in suburban areas with little or no interaction.  Everyone comes home, hits the garage door opener and are never to be seen again until they leave in the morning for work.  Even in crowed stores there is little communication between people.  Everyone "respects" the other person's "space" so much that we are afraid of invading it with conversation.  A lot of the "problems" come from our affluent society and our ability to use our own cars instead of walking or public transportation.  We are alone quite a lot.  We value our privacy much more than our neighbors.
-
Another area is our unhealthy eating habits.  Much has been said here about that, so I will not elaborate.
-
The overall ignorance of Americans IS rather appalling.  Especially when it comes to world affairs.  I have experienced some very laughable (and ignorant) questions regarding Russia and Eastern Europe.
-
The overall arrogance of Americans in general.
-
The general lack of personal pride in our appearance in public.
-
I am sure there are more, but that's enough to chew on for now.
KenC

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

I understand your point and think that your advice is good advice.  But I would like to understand how you deal with this without being considered a pushover.  Another words if your puzzy whipped and just take the criticism not really being a man or do you say something and if so what do you say to show that you also have points.  As for me I would probably put her on a plane and take her to see the Vietnam memorial or something like this to show her more of our history.  I don’t know I would enjoy knowing how you handle the situation.  Do you just shut up and take it and if so isn’t this not being a man something that you always talk about on this board as being important.  I guess you pick your battles right?

... in response to Re: Tolerance, posted by Ryan on Sep 17, 2002

Ryan,
I am not the type to "just shut up and take it" and neither is my wife.  There have been many a heated debate in this area.  I DO accept the criticism where it is justified though.  Her point of view has opened my eyes to more than a few things here.  I listen to her point of view, just as she does listen to mine.  As I said in the original post, her point of view has mellowed with the time she has spent here.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

Hmmm... wonder if she would say that your point of view has mellowed?

Sounds like a marriage that is working to me :-)

... in response to Tolerance, posted by KenC on Sep 17, 2002

after having lived in 9 different countries (domiciled there for more than 6 months!)including your country, I can understand her.
To read some of the 'counter attacks' to criticism (often justified in my opinion)posted here, I can only shake my head.
Be it known by all: "The sun DOES NOT rise and set on the U S of A!"   :-)
Truth is, it's CANADA that is the centre of the universe!!!

... in response to Too True, and....., posted by Del on Sep 17, 2002

And even then you have to come to the USA to make money ;-)

... in response to Only if you're a Hockey player , posted by MarkInTx on Sep 18, 2002

.

... in response to Touché        n/t  :-))))), posted by Del on Sep 18, 2002

n/t

... in response to Touché        n/t  :-))))), posted by Del on Sep 18, 2002

Touche :-)

... in response to Ahhh... so you're a french-canadian, eh?..., posted by MarkInTx on Sep 18, 2002

a little spanish, I can handle a little french,(Thank God for Cornflakes!!) because that's where many learn their french.  :-)))

... in response to nope, but just as you can handle...., posted by Del on Sep 18, 2002

Ahhh...

I was in Toronto and Montreal for business a few years ago.

That was pretty funny. Toronto is just like being in the states except the money looks like monopoly money...

Montreal was like being in a completely different country! Still nto sure which one... not quite France... but they had the arrogance down!

It was just after the big vote for separation... so emotions were still high, and almost NO ONE would speak English!

... in response to Too True, and....., posted by Del on Sep 17, 2002

but I thought Canada was just a northern province of the US.    (smile)  Just joking.   I love to get a rise out of our good neighbors to the north.  Once at a bar in Mexico I said that an almost got clobbered by a woman.    I  never saw anyone get so upset.   It was too funny when she figured out I was joking, after a 10 minute tirade from the lady.

too funny
Robert D.