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Turns out that she 'fessed up to my wife last night that while she wants my wife to help her find a husband here in the USA, she is ONLY interested in getting a green card.  My wife was very surprised and asked her if she really wouldn't prefer to find a good man to have a happy marriage with.  Her friend said no, that she wanted to be free and all she needed as that card.

I guess this shouldn't suprise me, since her mother and her mother's sister both married guys in the USA just for green cards.  One of the sisters managed to stay married long enough to get her card, while the other one's marriage lasted only about a year and then she got sent back to Russia.  The one who stayed then brought over her daughter and she married a guy from Brazil who has been in this country for about 12 years.  Now the daughter has HER green card.  The mother and daughter (and husband) live together in a 2-bedroom apartment in NJ.  And from what my wife's friend tells her, they (the 2 women) pretty much order the poor sap around like he is a slave.

And that's another thing.  Be careful about the RW/UW women you socialize with when your future wife gets to the States.  A LOT of these women (the ones married to UM/RM or the ones who are green card scammers) are generally very jealous of 'successful' UW/RW (i.e., those who are living a good life with their successful AM) and will spew all kinds of venom directed at ruining your relationship.

My wife's 'friend' spent a couple of hours telling my wife how she should be just sitting around doing nothing while I wait on her hand and foot.  That she should be out shopping all the time.  That she should go out and find herself a young stud lover, etc. etc.

Like I said, be VERY careful who your future wife socializes with.  I frimly believe that other RW/UW are likely to be a very bad influence on her, unless you are lucky enough to find one who is happily married to a successful AM (like guys on this list!).  That's the only RW/UW I would want my wife to hang around with.

Stevo

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002


With all due respect,
I am lost as to why you are supporting a woman who is
bad news? What the benefit of having her here?
Suggest that she pay some guy to marry her and then
play out the sham marriage together, I hear he going
rate is 5k, a polish women in NY told me this.

... in response to Re: Forget about Moscow lady post below...., posted by petem on Sep 19, 2002

ggg

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

You certainly can't pick your wife's friends for her, but I do think the women who tend to befriend others from their country are more at risk for not assimilating.

I've seen this happen.  Some women surround themselves with people from their own country and never really become a part of our culture.  There English language development suffers greatly and they always consider themselves separate and apart from Americans.  Not a good way to live in my opinion and a serious problem in a long term relationship.  I don't know about the East European immigrants, but I've seen many Hispanic immigrants who come here and never get far outside there own people and language.  Maybe it's harder to do for a Russian or Ukrainian woman since we don't have as many immigrants from that part of the world, but it's a big problem with Hispanic immigrants and should be a greater concern to men than "green card sharks" because I think it's a much more common problem encountered in these marriages

... in response to A good gauge for assimilation, posted by Patrick on Sep 19, 2002

.

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

just a reminder of the negative sobering truths that are mixed in with the  good that happens.

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

I think that what you say is very true.

But, I notice that as a parent (and step-parent), I could not "protect" my children when they got to the friend choosing stage.

I hoped that I had managed to instill the proper values in them so they would choose their friends wisely... but controlling them?

I imagine that it is even harder to "select" your wife's friends... isn't it?

How do you do that with a full grown woman...?

... in response to Yes... but a question, posted by MarkInTx on Sep 19, 2002

once a friend is chosen it will be your wife's decision whether or not to maintain that friendship as others have said.  What I am saying is that you should not be going out and looking for trouble by freely offering to find some other RW/UW friends for your wife when she first gets here.  Others have suggested you should go out of the way to find her some friends by checking out the local churches, etc.  To me, this is just asking for trouble since these women are likely to be the ones married to UM/RM and the ones who will be jealous.  It is MUCH better to help get your wife some AMERICAN lady friends.  They won't be trying to pollute her with crazy UW/RW ideas...get your wife Americanized as soon as possible, if you don't you will be just asking for trouble.  Encouraging her to associate with the Russian/Ukranian immigrant community is just plain crazy.

... in response to I'm not suggesting control, because..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

that I should be lining up RW/UW for my fiance to bond with once she gets here but it just doesn't sit right with me.. I too think it could be asking for possible trouble.

I am happy in that my girl seems little concerned with finding these women from home once she here.  We have talked about it but she just doesn't seem to feel the need for it. Of course that could always change.  She is mostly concerned with wanting to become good friends with my sister and cousins, for which I am personally glad.  I would ceretainly not stand in her way if she wanted to find some RW/UW friends, but neither will I encourage it.

A friend of mine who is married to a RW for the past 2 years said that his wife never wanted to meet any RW here!  He said that she said she was done with Russia and she wanted to become an american, that she had no desire to seek any other RW out..  I thought that was maybe a little odd at first, but I have since had some other men tell me that their wives did similarly..

Oh well, whatever.. LOL!

... in response to I'm not suggesting control, because..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

I see your point.

I have also heard trhe advice of having her network with other RW/UW women.

What you say makes sense to me...

... in response to Re: I'm not suggesting control, because...., posted by MarkInTx on Sep 19, 2002

First it assumes two absolutes - all RW/UW are full of these crazy ideas and all AW are not - and second it is based upon distrust.

Let me say immediately that my track record provides ample evidence that I am an expert on how to get a divorce, not on how to stay married, so with that caveat I proceed:

It has been my experience that if you distrust someone, you will communicate that distrust to them, no matter how hard you try to hide it, and that distrust of a lover often causes the result most feared.

Somehow we must make our marriage strong enough (attractive enough?) that she will dismiss the destructive efforts of others, be they recently divorced AW co-workers, single AW who KNOW that no woman can possibly be "fulfilled" as a wife and mother, or RW/UW green carders.

Finally, IMHO, you have to have been lucky enough to find a woman who shares your commitment to make your marriage work for a lifetime.

I am interested in the opinion of others on helping her find Russian-speaking friends.

... in response to It does, but then again it doesn't, posted by Griffin on Sep 19, 2002

that if you go looking at the RW/UW immigrant community for friends for your wife, there is a greater chance that you will find women there who will try to 'convert' your wife over to their ways of thinking.  That's not to say that there aren't any embittered AW who can do the same.  But if you have her try to make friends with other American married couples or RW/AM couples, then she's less likely to bump into the divorced AW.  I have yet to meet a RW immigrant who has NOT tried to convince my wife that she should find a 'lover man'.  This is MY experience only, and I'm sure others have different experiences to relate.  The RW in the three RW/AM couples I have come into contact with have also done the same.  Now these couples were not the successful ones I was talking about in my original post.

One was a guy from British Guyana (permanemt resident), one from Brazil (permanent resident) and one white American who was older than his wife by about 25 years.  In these 3 cases, the women were (are) playing these guys and I consider them all to be green card scammers to one degree or another.

So, between the RM?RM immigrant couples and these 'unsuccessful' couples, everyone of the women has been a very negative influence on my wife.  That's the basis of my recommendation.

Stevo

... in response to Look, all I'm saying is..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

In this case I would advice for her:

1) not to watch TV, especially Lifetime channel
2) not to read any Russian women discussion boards
3) not to talk to anybody.....

Jeez... I guess the list can go on and on, but what's the point? If something is going to make a negative influence - that only means that there is a reason for it. Things DO NOT JUST HAPPEN. Which means if conversations like that do matter something for her, than she has doubts of her own.

I know different people here, I have different friends. I think we have a healthy relationship because my husband knows of all of them and knows "who is who". But I think the more opportunities you have to meet different people here - visa scammers, immigrants, RW/RM couples, RW/AM couples, russian communities, ukranian communities, more chances you have to understand why some people are successful, why others are cheerful or happy and others are always disappointed and complaining.

Since you started talking about it I would say that for me one day it was an eye-opener when I finally understood that so many of us are trying to become friends ONLY because we are Russians, not because we are people of the same qualities, interests. It takes time for it and I am glad I went through the process of meeting all kind of people and hearing all kind of stories because now I can see very fast "who is who" and who I can be friends with and who is just an aquintance.

Dan made a very good point about hanging out with people who "charge" you with positive thoughts, ideas and life outlook. But I don't think you are doing any good by summarizing your experience in blank statement "do not socialize with Ukranian/Russian community". I just don't think it is feasible for someone who just left the country, family, friends and sometimes do not speak English and can not drive. After all, that is part of experience and new "culture" as well.

Russian Wife

... in response to negative influence, posted by RW on Sep 19, 2002

That "Not watching Lifetime Channel" rule is a pretty good rule, anyway... ;-)

... in response to Look, all I'm saying is..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

ones that I have been thinking about for some time.

My wife is not here yet.  We probably have another 2 months to wait for the visas.

Houston has a fairly large immigrant community and a large Orthodox church.  I can't really keep her from interacting with people from her "world" nor should I - not from any kind of moral standpoint, but from a practical one - I don't want to be perceived by her as forcing her assimilation to the point of denying her heritage.

Certainly I will bring her into my circle and my friends and their wives will support our marriage (at least until one of them gets a divorce) but she will be drawn to the Russian community, as I would be in her situation.

To forbid her to join the church or to make friends in the community is not an option.  You correctly identify some risks that I don't think can be avoided.  In the final analysis I think we have to find a way to build a relationship that will withstand the assaults of trivial people, and it will have to be based on mutual trust.

Was it Ben Jonson who said, "Remarriage is the triumph of hope over experience."?

I wish both of us the best of luck!

... in response to It does, but then again it doesn't, posted by Griffin on Sep 19, 2002

The issue is not about RW or UW or AW or MW (Martian women) - it is about associating with quality people - period.

Olya has several extraordinary RW that she has met here in the Denver area and that are great friends of hers (and mine). 2 are married to RM, 1 is married to an AM, and another is now divorced from an AM.

Olya and I both know the ladies and their spouses and are friends - at some level - with all of them. As a consequence, I know them well enough that I feel they are 'quality' people and have no compunction whatsoever about her spending time with them. In fact, I encourage it.

We also have couples-friends that are AM/AW combination - and they are just as close to us as the others. The key is associating with people who are optimistic and jovial and fun to be around. The kinds of people that are not inclined to be 'crying over spilled milk' or bemoaning the cultural differences lost.

Just as a prime example - while we live in Denver and KenC and Lena live in San Diego - if we were ever to move to that part of the country - I have no doubt that we all would spend a fair amount of time together. It is all about identifying and associating with people of good character.

Just a clarification - FWIW.

- Dan

... in response to It does, but then again it doesn't, posted by Griffin on Sep 19, 2002


This says it all Griffin,.......

......."Finally, IMHO, you have to have been lucky enough to find a woman who shares your commitment to make your marriage work for a lifetime".

There is certaintly luck involved with this pursuit but to a degree we can all make our own luck, even if it is only a little.

By throwing a wide net helps, taking one's time, educating one's self are a few things that I feel must be done. But the last thing I mentioned, "Educating one's self to all aspects of this pursuit" is the one most important bit of advice I could offer anyone. Education is the key!

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

To more than just friendships your UW makes. It is true for just about any situation (children), including your own.

The people we choose as friends tells an enormous amount about 'who' we are - and has tremendous influence on behaviors.

Choose wisely. Good advice.

- Dan

... in response to Forget about Moscow lady post below..., posted by Stevo on Sep 19, 2002

Stevo,
My experience has been the same as your's when it comes to other FSU women here that have befriended my wife.  The vast majority assume that our marriage is a shame and try their best to convince Lena into the bad moves you mentioned.
KenC

... in response to my experience the same, posted by KenC on Sep 19, 2002

xscd

... in response to How did you deal with it? n/t, posted by Pordzhik on Sep 19, 2002

Pordzhik,
You don't deal with it, she does.  Your wife will have her own "moral compass" and she will make her own decisions.  I have no fears in this area.  
KenC

... in response to Re: How did you deal with it? n/t, posted by KenC on Sep 19, 2002

You had mentioned before that a decent portion of the couples that you and Lena met that were AM/FSU marriages were in trouble or headed for such. I got the impression that the troubled marriages outnumbered the happy ones. Is that correct?

... in response to Question for you Ken, posted by thesearch on Sep 19, 2002

Greg,
From the couples I have actually met, yes.
KenC