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I am planning my first trip to UA and need some advice.  Here's the deal.  I've been talking to a couple of girls in Lugansk (not currently on any of the antiscammer sites I've seen) and want to go visit.  One I'm a good bit more interested in than the other.  I'm also emailing one in Donetsk and may go there from Lugansk.  Having been on blind dates in US, I know how reality can hit when you actually meet someone.  How do you all feel about making the trip to meet only 2 or 3 girls?  What about only 1?  Should I have a backup plan with an agency?  I've been searching agencies and have found a few interesting girls in Kherson (of course not all in one agency).  I could fly into Odesa, go to Kherson for a couple of days, and then go on to Lugansk (if they even have transportation between those 2 points).  But I'm really only interested in the one Lugansk girl, and I'm thinking Lugansk is so far out of the way that on my first trip I'll only have time to go there.  Without her, I don't know if I'd be making this trip.  Or am I too naive?  I need the benefit of your experience.  What path do you recommend?

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

yeah, its kind of naive to go to lugansk just to see one girl that you don't even know.  you should know that lugansk is the scammer capitol of ukraine.  that she is from lugansk AND on an obscure american "match" site really really suggests something is wrong there.  have you even spoken to her on the phone?  most ukrainian girls DO have phones or, at the least, access to a phone...and don't believe the girl who says she does not.  i think a girl saying she does not have a phone is a big scammer red flag alert.  you should definitely talk to her on the phone before you go all that way just to see her.  also, check with someone like jack to have flowers personally delivered to her along with a picture taken of her receiving them to verify that she is even real.  if she does not give you her physical address where she can receive mail and flowers, she's probably a scammer.  its probably also a good idea to have someone else who's received a few emails from FSU women to read some of the emails she's sent you for a quick "scam scan."

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

I was involved with a lady from Lugansk. She was not a scammer just had emotional problems - overly sensitive type with end result being an end product of repeated abuse from Ukrainian men.

Absolutely gorgeous lady.

However, what I want to say is that she told me that she would never let me travel to Lugansk unescorted by her. She said she would meet me in Kiev and we would travel together.

I would not go to Lugansk this first trip. Have her meet you in Kiev or somewhere else. Just pay for her train ticket and a place for her to stay. If you really like her, you can have plan B to go with her back to Lugansk or go there your next trip.

How did you find those ladies in Lugansk. My lady from Lugansk told me that several of the ladies she rubbed shoulders with at an agency clearly were not looking for a husband but a green card. She told me that it was a dangerous proposition for an American man to find a sincere Ukrainian woman from what she could see by the type of ladies that were using the agency services.

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Sep 20, 2002

Mine in Lugansk were from a free site-matchdoctor.  I've checked out ALL the sites listed in planet-love, and they do not appear in any of those agencies.  Nor do they appear on scammer alert sites.

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Wow! RWNovice, you come across as pretty insincere...

... in response to Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rojak on Sep 20, 2002

You a male???

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

I have never traveled outside of the states (except for the Bahamas and NYC) but have traveled extensively alone in the US.  I'm a lawyer who handles cases in port cities around the US.  I know it's going to be culture shock.  Don't know Russian or Ukrainian (BTW, I'd rather learn Russian as it is more widespread-what are your thoughts?)  I'll approach my girls about the possiblity of meeting me in Odessa or Kherson and check their reaction.  To save me the time, I would gladly pay their $79 autolux bus fares both ways.  I'll have to be really slick about scheduling to pull it off without overlap-maybe feigning a departure for one of them.  If things go unbelievably well with one of them, I might make the rest of the trip to Lugansk to check out the family.  But if they are not receptive to meeting me, I believe I can get valuable info from trekking to Lugansk and meeting the families.  I would need insight into their backgrounds if things would develop.  And if they didn't, I would be stuck in Lugansk looking for transportion to another city where I have previously established leads.
 I'm not big on meeting a lot of girls at this point-the aforementioned target confusion.  The whole motivation for the trip is this one girl. . .she seems quite down to earth, humble, sweet.  Met her on matchdoctor-she's not with any agency.  So, I'm leaning towards the very few girls approach this time out with a backup plan.  Next time out, if this doesn't pan out, I can cast the net wide.  BTW, I've seen Firstdream, and the site is pretty vague about prices.  I might contact him to see if he has any assets (no pun intended) in Lugansk or Donetsk.

... in response to Re: Thanks for the benefit of your exper..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

If you bring multiple girls from out-lying cities to meet you don't forget one very important detail: Change apartments!

It will be easier for the girl to pack up and go home if she sees you packing up and "leaving" also.

... in response to Re: Thanks for the benefit of your exper..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

Stuff like flats, translators, girls, etc???  I know you strongly recommend the wide net cast at least as a backup. . .Thanks!

... in response to Re: HEY JACK-You got any back up in Luga..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

rwnovice, by just reading only a little bit of what you have written, I would say you need to make some changes in your plans. Might be best for you to call me when you have half an hour or so.

... in response to Re: Re: HEY JACK-You got any back up in ..., posted by Jack on Sep 20, 2002

;)

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

My advice, go to Lugansk and see you #1 first.  If all goes well with her, spend as much time with her as possible.  It is more than likely that she will be unavailable at certain times and you will be there with nothing to do, so even if all is going well with girl #1, you still need a backup plan for Lugansk.  That will give you a comparison so that you do not go and marry the first Ukrainian lady you meet and if things do not go well, you will need the back up plan anyway.  In my opinion, the best first back up plan is to have telephone numbers of ladies that you are corresponding with in that city.  Agencies in that local area are a second back up plan behind the telephone numbers being your first back up plan.  You also need a back up plan in case Lugansk sucks or you have bad luck there.  Make back up plans for Kherson and let us know how it goes.  Best of luck.

... in response to Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by Ramblin on Sep 20, 2002

I agree with Zink that you should also bring with you a list of internet sites and e-mail addresses so that you can write to ladies from an internet cafe.  But keep in mind that once you tell a lady that you are in her city and would like to meet her, it could take her two days to schedule you.  And it is very rare that a local agency can get you a date for the same evening that you show up.  So you will need to get the ball rolling on your back up plans ahead of time.  I think whenever you can get to the point that you don't need an agency or an e-mail but can just call the girl up yourself or with your interpreter, then you have your back up plan covered.  But for new ladies, you will need the agencies and internet.

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

What is your life experience?  How many times have you been out of the USA?  Are you an experienced travelor?  Do you speak Russian at all?  Do you like taking long train rides?  Do you like flying between cities (do you mind it much) on old airplanes?  Will you need a translator?  How much of the Russian (mostly in Eastern Ukraine) culture and Ukrainian culture do you know?  You should think about all of these things.  You must know yourself and should know what you seek.  For all I know you are from the Ukraine, speak the language fluently and know exactly what you are getting into - but somehow I doubt that.

Now, assuming you are about 40 with a number of trips overseas, are confident in your traveling ability, know the culture and speak little to no Russian and drawing on my experience - which is a guy who wants a vastly superior girl than I could attract here - if I were you I would see the girl in Lugansk and after a period of time see the other girl in Donetsk.  If I were you I would contact someone like Jack at Firstdream to help you with transportation, housing and translator problems as well as help you with backup plans ie. which agencies to go to in the cities you visit in the event that things do not work out with your two girls.  No, I never used Jack's services, but may so next year - I like his references from this board as well as his advice which is the soundest I have ever heard from anyone in the business.

I think you are a lucky man at the beginning of a wonderous adventure.  All the best.

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Watch out if you start the one woman versus many discussion again! A few times a year we go through that one. The last time it was fairly friendly. I'm not very familiar with Ukraine as I chose to focus entirely on Russia. Just bad luck when I wrote Ukranian girls. The Russian ladies seem to like me better.  But maybe my thoughts on the matter will help.

Go to meet as many girls as you want. I prefer to only meet a few each trip(I went to Russia several times for just one), others want to date half the city. It's up to you. But make a back up plan. Find some recommended agencies in your chosen area or make a list of secondary contacts yourself. Meet the girls that you contacted before you went and then decide where to go from there. If none suit you, go to the agencies or an internet cafe and write/meet some from your back up list.

As for Lugansk. Why not have the girl come to meet you somewhere else if you don't want to go there? If you can fly half way around the world to see her, then she should be able to make a shorter trip for you. It all depends on how strong your attraction is to this girl. Is she worth it to you to make that trip?

Just keep a positive attitude and try to enjoy your trip even if you don't find what you're looking for quickly. You seem to have your act together so far, so don't worry about being naive.

... in response to Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by Zink on Sep 19, 2002

the girl's family?  That's a drawback of asking the Lugansk girls to meet me in Odesa or Kherson.  They both seem family oriented.  But maybe it would be a litmus test to see if they're really serious about leaving home in the first place.  Then again, I would hate to piss off the one I'm really interested in by not going to her home town.  And meeting too many girls worries me--sensory overload and target confusion.  I could see myself just standing slackjawed with an inability to pick one to focus on.

... in response to Re: Thanks, gentlemen. . .isn't it impor..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

..find out if you like them first.  You'll feel like a real jerk if you meet the family then walk away from them.  They might think you rejected them and their whole family.  Meeting the family should be reserved for if you really hit it off with the girl.

... in response to Re: Thanks, gentlemen. . .isn't it impor..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Yes. It is vitally important: When you want to marry her.

On this board, you will probably pick up on a theme: You WILL make more than one trip to Ukraine. That being said, you can meet her family the second time around... especially if you are not sure of how you two feel about each other the first time around.

... in response to Re: Re: Thanks, gentlemen. . .isn't it i..., posted by MarkInTx on Sep 20, 2002

I have approached one of the 2 Lugansk girls (plan B) with the idea of meeting me.  Her response is unclear as of yet.  I think she is a little afraid of going out to the big city of Kiev to meet a perfect stranger.  She even declined to give me her address in Lugansk when I asked her.  I think she's really cautious.  She's not with an agency, so she's on her own in the whole process.  My other Lugansk girl (plan A) is in a communication blackout because her translation service at her internet cafe said she is cut off until she pays for translation service in advance.  This manager of the internet cafe there wanted me to wire her money to continue translation.  I told her that I had on order Ukrainian translation software and would not need her translation services.  This internet cafe manager wants $100 for a month of unlimited translations.  I think this is a good deal IF you don't have translation software.  I've seen interpreters on the internet want 5 cents a word which adds up VERY quickly.  Bottom line is that this internet cafe manager is holding me hostage.  Any thoughts?

... in response to Re:  more than one trip, posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

wow!  you are in trouble!  i know you are new to this, but it seems you are SO naive that you don't even recognize the obvious scam signals.  and if you don't learn fast, you WILL be scammed.  are you REALLY a lawyer?  because i thought part of the skill of being a lawyer is the ability to read between the lines and "glean" what's really happening and what's really being said.  here's the scoop naiveguy:  the internet cafe is NOT holding you hostage.  THEY are NOT asking her to pay $100 per month for translation services.  SHE is asking YOU to send her money!  and you are surely not the only one she is asking.  she's already scamming you for your time, don't let her scam you for money.  the other girl not wanting to send you her address is another alert.  there is a reason she does not want you to know where she really lives.  i wonder what it is?

... in response to hey naiveguy, posted by johnnydudeman on Sep 21, 2002

dudeguy.  as with everything there is a learning curve.

... in response to Re:  more than one trip, posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

Yes, a thought- I will tell you what was the best advice ever given to me about this issue-  DO NOT EVER GIVE A WOMAN MONEY YOU HAVE NOT MET IN PERSON!  This advice has served me very, very well.  If the girl is legit, she will find a way to write you from an internet cafe, or get a friend who knows some english to help her etc..  This is a classic line, "they won't let me write to you unless you send them some money".. or "My internet service or agency will cut off my use if you can't help pay for me".  99% BS!  
There are plenty of legit women there.. Ask her to write you from an internet cafe.  If she says she can't or they don't answer, just move on, no matter how cute she is!  RUn, don't wald, to the nearest exit.. ;-)

... in response to Re: Re:  more than one trip, posted by Oscar on Sep 21, 2002

This is beginning to look like a very bad idea.

... in response to Re:  more than one trip, posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

Scam.

$100 a month? are you kidding me?

I'm thinking you just had the first hook put into you, and they are waiting to reel you in.

But, I'm sure some guys would differ on that.

Personally... I'd move on...

... in response to Just one, posted by MarkInTx on Sep 20, 2002

OK.  I'm glad I talked to you.  I'm not sending them anything.  One Lugansk girl down. . .sad, because she was the one I was most interested in.  I'll email you.

... in response to Re: Just one, posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

I have some interesting literature on the common scams. If you want to read it e-mail me and I'll send it. It was interesting that I was writing to 2 scammers just when I found this info. Their correspondence was step by step exactly as described in my guide.

The one scammer is called Marina Lukanyenko on First Dream's website. I see that her story is posted now. She(they/whoever) wrote the most amazing letters I've ever read. That's what tipped me off. They weren't like any other letters that I got from more sincere ladies.

I don't like using agency translator's. My first RW and I got into trouble because of our interpretor. The interpretor thought we were a good match and was trying to be helpful so she embellished both our letters. It lead to misunderstandings later on when we found out that the other person didn't really write some of what the other read. I believe the interpetor was honest just misguided.

Take Bubba's advice and use internet translators or buy a program. If you can install Russian windows on a computer I have a good program you could have. It isn't perfect but it is usually understandable. I have Russian windows 98 and 2000 if you want them.

... in response to Re: Re: Just one, posted by Zink on Sep 21, 2002

tion software because I figured I would be in this for the long haul, and I wanted to encourage my female contacts to write to me as much as possible without them worrying about paying interpreters.  I'm guessing I just need to download the UA disk and won't need it after that.  How about an exchange?  We can download each other's and return the cd's when done.  What do you think?  Email is tguillory@cox.net.  Would appreciate the scammer MO info.  Thanks!

... in response to Re: Very kind of you.  I've already orde..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 21, 2002

n/t

... in response to Information sent n/t, posted by Zink on Sep 21, 2002

much!

... in response to Re: Thanks, gentlemen. . .isn't it impor..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Yes! It is important to meet her family. But first you have to meet the girl. No point in meeting the whole family if you decide you don't like her(or she you) after 5 minutes together. To go there or not is a tough decision. If it wasn't for everything bad I've heard about Lugansk I'd advice going there. It's good to see your ladies on their home ground. But you can always go to Lugansk after you've met.

Bobby Orr posted some very good questions for you to ask yourself. It all depends on your experience and capabilities. I'm comfortable enough in Russia that I'm not worried about going anywhere alone now. But on my first trip I learned what it is like to be truly alone. I was in another country and didn't know a single person other than my girlfriend and her sister. Luckily she and her family took excellent care of me. I hate to think what could have happened if she had abandoned me then. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Sensory overload and target confusion! Nice wording. You're starting to sound like me. I prefer to meet one or two because then I actually get to know the person. I can't make my dates into job interviews. I tried writing to many ladies at once. After a few letters they all started to blur. Who did I tell what? Was she the one who went there? What in the h3ll am I doing?

I have 2 girlfriends at the moment and it's annoying me. They're both great and I want to spend more time with them but they've got me trying to go to opposite sides of the world. I don't have the time and money for that. That's why for me 1 at a time is better.

... in response to Re: Thanks, gentlemen. . .isn't it impor..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Seeing a woman on her home turf and seeing how she reacts with her family and friends is vitally important in my opinion.  I spent a lot of time with my girls family and friends and asked a lot of questions.  You could always meet the woman from Lugansk in Odessa and first see if there is some chemistry there.  If there is, then you could always go there and see the family..  
As far as them being "pissed off" by your asking them to meet you in another city-  I did this with a few women and none of them were upset by the suggestion.  I simply told them that I would be in Kiev, Odessa or wherever and I would like to have them come visit..  When I told them I would be happy to pay for their travel expenses, they were happy to do it..  I imagine there might be some women who would be upset, but for me and my friends that have done it, we just didn't see it.

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

If it were me, I would station myself in one good area (From the cities you have mentioned, I would personally choose Odessa. Some other guys might choose others but that would be my choice.) and bring any interesting outlying ladies to me!  The running around from one city to the next can get very tiring.  But bringing in girls can also be difficult and has it's drawbacks too..  If you bring a girl all the way from Lugansk and have 2 or 3 days scheduled with her, what if you know in the first hour it is definitely NOT going to happen with her?  Do you politely send her back or stick it out for the full 2 days, limiting your time with other possibilities?  This is where having someone like Jack can be of some really great help.

There has been much discussion here (check the archives) about going to meet only a couple of girls.  Man, it is a long way to go, at great expense (cash and work time wise), to go and only have one or two women who both don't work out!  Certainly it's possible that one could work out, but the odds are not great for this.  Most guys here would probably agree with this.  As you yourself have suggested, meeting online and meeting in person are two completely different things!  I know that on my last trip for example, some of the women I was most excited to meet turned out to be the ones who it worked the least with! LOL!

I think Jack would probably agree with this- that on a first trip like this, it might be wise to expose yourself (in a sense! LOL!) to many different women and possibilities.  You have a lot to learn about things over there and it can really help to meet more than a few women.

I would also think strongly about running a personal ad.  These would be women who would really be interested in you.. very low scam rate in running an ad as most scammers don't respond to them.  Not expensive to do so either..

My 2 cents..

Oscar

... in response to collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Well,

The only girls I ever contacted in Lugansk were all scammers. Not saying that there aren't wonderful women there... but be careful.

Is this your first trip? Still trying to figure out what's what? I'm not sure I'd advise going to Lugansk -- scammer capital of Ukraine, and taking my chances...

If I were you, and I were planning on meeting several ladies... I think that the Odessa / Kherson option sounds best.

There are some good agencies in both, and you can quickly find enough girls to fill up your dance card.

Jack's FirstDream is well connected in Odessa.

A Kherson Rose is a good agency in Kherson. These two towns are fairly close, so it is easy to get from one to the other. Also, by going between the two, you have a built in "reason" for leaving, which the ladies will understand.

Just one man's opinion... but I'd leave Lugansk until my second trip when I knew the playing field better...

... in response to Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by MarkInTx on Sep 19, 2002

Neither of the Lugansk mafia have asked for money yet.  At what point did you bust your Lugansk scammers???  I've already been contacted by a RW scammer-she initiated the contact.  On the 3rd or 4th email she asked for $1,800 so that her "visa application deadline" would not expire.  Having a little common sense, I knew something was up and went to an antiscammer site-BAM as Emeril would say-she was at the top of the heap!  Neither of my girls have given bathing suit photos.  I've done a lot of reading since then.  Transportation seems like a real pain in the ass in UA.  How many trips did it take for you to find your fiancee there?

... in response to Re: Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

Well, the anti-scammer sites are good for helping nail the most prolific scammers. But they don't have all of them by a long shot.

The lady and I exchanged about 5 or 6 emails I guess. Then it started with the subtle hints for money for email. I ignored them, and she switched to other hints. I can't remember how many letters before she started being more direct.

Others I wrote to from there were much more clumsy. But some of the scammers are getting really good. Are you paying for her email, btw?

Look, I'm not saying your girl IS a scammer. I am saying that the chances are higher from Lugansk than anywhere else.

That being said... if she IS a scammer, and you end up in the scammer capital of Ukraine for a week -- what will you do then?

Forbid me from telling anyone else not to "put all of his eggs in one basket" (smile). That's what I did and it worked out for me. (Although once before it didn't...)

I just, personally, wouldn't put all of my eggs in a basket from Lugansk, that's all.

To each his own. You just asked for opinions... and I gave you mine... Everyone has to do what he thinks is best here...

... in response to Re: Re: Re: collective wisdom solicitati..., posted by MarkInTx on Sep 20, 2002

Got a hint of the email money request ostensibly from the internet cafe manager.  I'm calling her on it with translation software.  Do all girls pay their own translation?  Do guys help out after a while?  What's the usual and customary deal???

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: collective wisdom solici..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

...and tell them to do the same.  You get some pretty funny translations but you have an idea what they are saying.  You could just translate into Russian using an online site yourself and send it out that way.  Your email system will let you paste the russian characters in and send it out.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: collective wisdom solici..., posted by rwnovice on Sep 20, 2002

There is no "usual and customary".

A lot of guys think it is only fair to pay for translation and/or email fees.

My feeling is that it is something I would do for "my girlfriend" but not for someone I have never met.

I am not aware of one single guy who paid for the email and/or translation for a girl he never met, and it ended up working out.

I might be wrong... but I can't think of one success story there...

Personally, I never paid for either.

But everyone has a different opinion on that.

... in response to Re: Re: collective wisdom solicitation, posted by rwnovice on Sep 19, 2002

For your first trip Odessa or kershon or the Crimea are
all better places to go. Or invite the girl from Lugansk
to visit you in Kiev. Without some knowledge of russian
lugansk could be a bad choice!!!