Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

I just got back from a week in Kiev.  This was my third trip in a year and the second one to visit one lady - the same one both times.

This trip was one he!! of an emotional roller coaster ranging from the high of being met at the airport to the low of thinking that she was trying to scam me, and back up to wanting to believe she is really interested in me after we sat down and talked.  The people who have me her (interpreters, tour guide for the two of us) tend to believe she is sincere - no guarantees of course.

You're probably interested in the scam part. I last visited her in October of last year.  We spent two weeks together, including a week in Crimea.  She wouldn't let me buy her anything: she wanted to me new clothes.  (She is really into the latest fashions and my wardrobe certainly doesn't match that description.)

This trip she did want me to buy her things, including expensive jewelry and a flat screen tv. She made a point of telling me she has expensive tastes.  There were other things that bothered me also.  

Eventually, we did sat down and talked.  Now many things make sense to me.  We had a situation with two people who don't communicate well.  I tend to jump to conclusions and she doesn't volunteer things that she should.  For example, she never told me until yesterday that she works two jobs, because I didn't ask.  I thought that was covered under what do you do when we first met.

I want to believe that this woman is really interested in my but has unrealistic expectations of what I can afford.  I saw and heard many good and bad things during this past week.  My head is still spinning and I am not sure what to think.  

Just for the record, I have seen things from the beginning that made me realize that trying to build a relationship with this woman was very risky.  Jack has discussed his concerns with me and I had seen the same things he had.

To top things off, when I arrive in Miami, my luggage hadn't.  The woman who checked me in at Boryspil Airport this morning spoke better English than the person in Miami who took my lost baggage claim! Finally, my ride home wasn't there to meet me.

There is an old Chinese saying: "May you live in interesting times."  This past week has certainly been interesting!

Richard

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

I do need to make one correction here.  My ride did show up.  I just frustrated from dealing with Northwest's incompetant baggage claim person who could not fill out the claim buy himself, that when my friend wasn't where I expected him, I took a cab home instead of looking arround further for him.

Btw, the people in Kiev who checked me in at the airport spoke better english than the person in America that took my lost baggage claim!  I flew into Miami!

The airline delivered my suitcase at 5:00 am.  If my dog hadn't started barking, I wouldn't have known he was there.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

I always made a habit of telling any girls I was interested in, that I was not rich and that my life here in America was very mundane and that she might not be able to expect much more than she already had in Ukraine.  

Sure, I threw around some money while I was there but I made sure not to over do it too much so as not to give the wrong impression.  I also made sure to tell them that I had saved my money all year long just to make this one trip and that it was a big deal to me.  

In a sense every trip I have made over, was a big deal to me because I knew my stays were relatively short and I wanted to savor every minute I was there.

Perhaps you did open a bit of a pandora's box by being too loose with your money but I feel that someone asking for a flat screen tv is just too much, even if she did think you were loaded.  It just sounds like bad ediquette on her part.  Only you can be the ultimate judge of the situation but it sounds like her priorities are a bit out of order, at the least.

I always wanted to know that the lady wanted to be with me no matter what living circumstances would be.  This I think is the key to finding a lasting partner.  I think I made a pretty sound choice because she is still crazy about me and would rather spend time with me rather than enjoy some fancy dinner or shopping for some expensive jewelry.

I am not trying to rain on your parade but be sure that she really loves or at least cares alot about YOU before you consider bringing her over.  Otherwise, the pain and trouble you could end up with will probably be ten fold.

... in response to Re: Trip Report - long, posted by Oatmeal on May 21, 2002

I think you have the right idea by telling them you're poor.  I've been telling her that I'm middle class and she just doesn't seem to understand the concept. I geuss that middle class is just to foreign in a land where there is no middle class.

No, you're not raining on my parade.  My parade got rained on last week in Kiev.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

Richard,
I feel for you, Bud.  You are in no man's land as far as your heart is concerned.  Keep a level head and do what is right for you.  No matter how you hope things will be, only you KNOW how they are for real.
Getting to know a RW is a perilous journey with many land mines for both sides. We as American men are not prepared for the ultra femininity that these women exhibit.  We interpret their normal feminine behavior as "special" actions that prove their fondness for us.  An AW just would not act this way unless she was madly in love with us.  The RW is just being a Russian woman, but we read way too much into it.  Our mind quickly translates their behavior into much more than was ever intended.
On the other hand, we also unintentionally play mind games with RW.  They are not conditioned to impulse purchases of any kind.  They have to budget just for daily necessities with luxuries usually being nonexistent.  When we throw out comments about frivolous purchases, they do not know how to handle it.  Where is the ceiling?  Were you kidding about buying her a TV?  Or were you serious?  With the language barrier being an additional problem, she for sure doesn't really know what is real.
What I see here is two people who MAY have had something that was real that turned into "something else" because of mixed messages.  You may have read too much into her natural affections and she may have walked through the door of "financial milk & honey" because YOU opened it for her.  
KenC

... in response to mixed messages, posted by KenC on May 21, 2002

The whole buying something on the spur of the moment is a sobering thought.

I have experienced this on a much smaller level with a woman I dated here in the states once.

She was a single mom and on a very fixed budget. The first few times we went out, she was concerned about the prices of the resturaunts. I told her not to worry about it. I wanted her to relax and have fun. To enjoy herself. I even enjoyed taking her places that she had never been before...

Well, flash forward a few months... suddenly, when I would ask her where she wanted to eat, she started naming very expensive places.

And I was thinking "Sheesh, what's she think, I'm made of money? Why can't we eat at home once in a while..."

But, you know what... I TRAINED her to think that way.

This must be MUCH more dangerous when we go to the FSU. It wasn't that long ago that they had to stand in line for bread, don't forget.

Buying a new TV set on a whim must be something that is completely alien to them. And, anyone who can do that MUST be made of money... right?

I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I go over...

When in Rome, do as the Romans... When in Kiev...

(PS: I think that there may be an exception here for clothes. I can't believe what these women spend on their wardrobe when you lok at it as a percentage of their overall salary...)

... in response to Good Point, posted by MarkInTx on May 21, 2002

But, you know what... I TRAINED her to think that way.

IMHO the thinking of a more evolved person.

... in response to mixed messages, posted by KenC on May 21, 2002

However, what I had in mind (19 inch color table top tv to replace the similar sized black and white tv I saw on my first visit) was quite different from what she requested (flat screen tv).

If she had not gotten upset with me in the second electronics store when I tried to comparison shop and had been will to settle for something I can afford, she probably *would* have gotten a TV.  *And* a vcr.  As I said in another post, at that point in time I wanted her to be in love with me so badly, that I would have done anything she wanted me to.  

The *only* thing that saved me that day was that she out and out asked for something I just could not afford.

I agree with you that I may may have read too much into her natural affections and she may have walked through the door of "financial milk & honey" because I opened it for her.

... in response to I was serious about the tv, posted by Richard on May 21, 2002

Richard,
RW have a problem with the values on purchases like this for some reason.  I know when Lena first came here, she could not differentiate between $300 or $3,000 or $30,000.  I cannot explain why, but it baffled me for a while.  I am not trying to make excuses for her behavior but trying to help you understand a portion of it.  
The red flag was raised when she readily accepted the idea of such a lavish gift in the first place.  (And I am speaking of the 19" TV)  I also would be alarmed that what she wanted was a TV and VCR, because women, in general, don't give a rats azz about electronic gizmos.  My thinking is that she was gonna milk you for the family not herself.  Personally, I think that is even worse.  
I recently bought Lena a Sony Palm Pilot.  She was very thankful at first.  After a day or two, she came to me and said, "Honey, your gift is great, but women don't like things like this.  Would you be hurt if we returned it and used the money for clothes or shoes?"  LOL.
KenC

... in response to Re: I was serious about the tv, posted by KenC on May 21, 2002

Due to events I won't go into, I agree with your assesment that she was in it for what she could get for her family.  While I believe that her mother, brother and sister in law were in on the scam, I am convinced that her father was not.

... in response to mixed messages, posted by KenC on May 21, 2002

I did the same thing I opened the door... Can it ever be shut again?  Nope I guess I move on and learn from that..  Your analogy is right on the money... All because I was trying to be cool...lol

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

As I see it I made two major mistakes.  First of, I was way too generous.  I left some money with her when I left in October.  Then I sent some more money to help with the visa documents.  Then there was her Birthday in January and Valentines Day in February and International Women’s Day in March.  In April came a request for money for English lessons. While the story about her English teacher having a heart attack did set off alarm bells, I sent the money anyway.  

I sent it because of the other big mistake: I wanted her to be in love with me so badly, that I was willing to do anything she wanted me to.  I think that this is my biggest mistake, because I still don’t want to walk away, even though I know it is the only thing I can do.  I just cannot convince myself that she really is in love with me.

I hope that somebody will read this and not make the same mistakes I have.  

... in response to My two biggest mistakes., posted by Richard on May 21, 2002

I mean exactly to the letter…  I just could not believe or didn’t want to believe that my girl was being dishonest with me.  I mean I sat with their family at the kitchen table, went to their stupid little garden or dasha, canned fruit together we had some great laughs but then the greed started in from her and I just gave and gave like a fool.  I have dated so many woman in the U.S. breaking hearts and moving on all the time but never in my life have I felt like the way I felt went I finally came to terms with the girl that I really thought that I could live with was taking me for a ride.  She was the only woman in my life that I ever considered for marriage.  It just sucks big time, on that note I guess now I know how some of the American woman that I lead on and turned down felt.  For my case what comes around goes around…
Live and learn
Ryan

... in response to This is exactly how I felt, posted by Ryan on May 21, 2002

So... what do you think... now thinking back on it...?

Was she always greedy, and just playing you along by letting meet the family and everything?

Or do you think that she simply misunderstood your generosity, and then it became expected?

... in response to Curious, posted by MarkInTx on May 21, 2002

Oh ya it was my fault from the beginning, I was cool and throwing around all that play money you get.  I was stupid and made so many mistakes.  Even sent money before we met.  Her family was not in on it or anything her mother, father and brother and I got along great it is sad that we will probably never meet again.  It was my girl and her mother that came from Lugansk to Kiev to meet me.. (I paid) her mother even asked me one night if I was going to marry her daughter I told her that I didn’t think she liked me and she got all excited NO NO she likes you a lot etc. etc.  (I said that because of a misunderstanding her daughter and I had)   It was a mess and most of not all was because of my actions and misunderstandings.  I think there was chemistry but then I was immature and misunderstood things and just screwed to all up.  As a matter of fact I was just looking for her number and was going to call but I can’t find it anymore I just can’t let it go I feel like I can make it all better because now I understand but like I said in post above I opened the door and no going back.  Find new and start over, but I will always wonder what could have been.  Ahh she was a moody b!tch anyway…lol

... in response to Re: Curious, posted by Ryan on May 21, 2002

Ryan,
I busted your chops as bad as anyone here before.  I see a HUGE growth in your maturity level.  Believe it or not, your privious experience has helped you a lot.  You are a better man now because of it.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

... in response to This is exactly how I felt, posted by Ryan on May 21, 2002

However, we may two of the few people willing to talk about it.  One of my reasons for posting was to try and get this out in the open and talk about it.

We spend so much time talking about whether to send money before you are seriously involved with someone but we never talk about how to handle the money once you are involved in a serious relationship.

I didn't give her any money until after we were engaged. Then my normal generous nature took over.  Now I can't help but wonder what would have happened if I had been a lot less generous.

Richard

... in response to Ryan - I am that you and I aren't the on..., posted by Richard on May 21, 2002


As the greatest Lyricist of our time put it:

"I guess it is a sequel to our story
On a journey between Heaven and Hell
With half the time thinking of what might have been
And half thinking... it's just as well ..."

But, you are right... this is an important topic, and I'm glad you posted.

It's made me think...

... in response to In The Words of Harry Chapin, posted by MarkInTx on May 21, 2002

The words of a great pholosopher...

I will be listing to that tonight.  Harry Chapins greatest hits is one of the few cds I own.

Thank you for the reminder!

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

This started out as a real relationship.  She responded to my personal ad that was run in a Kiev paper in April 2001. I will admit that she was the first woman I met on that trip that I really liked and hit it off with, but she was not the only one I hit it off.  Shortly after our first introductory meeting, I called her to invite her to join me for dinner that evening: she was *so* excited that she forgot what little English she did know and I had to get someone to call her in Ukrainian.  (This person also told me that she was very excited.) We really enjoyed our dinner together and spent time together on three of the four remaining days that I had in Kiev on that trip.

There is a 15 year difference in our ages: 30 and 45 at the time we met 31 and 46 now.  She was not what I had been looking for: Most of the women I invited to the socials I also attended where in the late 30s and 40s. Many of them had children - I would like to have children, but at my age, I am not sure I want to deal with babies.  She is however, the one I fell in love with.

I returned to visit her last October.  We spent two weeks together, including a week in Crimea.  Neither of us are big talkers. However I really felt that she cared for me.  For example, when I would put my arm around her while we were walking, she would press my arm to her side.

As we got to know each other better, the relationship grew. We grew a lot closer during our time in Crimea.  I decided that I didn’t want to live without her and asked to marry me.  Unfortunately, I asked her too soon and she had to think about it.  Two days later she looks at me and tells me “If you want to marry me, you’re going to have to buy me a ring.  It is a tradition in America, isn’t it?”  I replied that it is and that I hadn’t brought a ring with me because I wasn’t sure how I would feel about her.  I really had not planned on asking her on this trip – my feelings for her had grown stronger much more quickly than I had expect.

The next morning we go shopping for an engagement ring.  She selects a really nice ring at a very reasonable price.  When I tried to put it on her finger, she tells me “Now you have to ask my parents permission to marry me”.  When I asked for permission to marry her, her mother started crying with happiness and her Father and Brother start giving me asking me all kinds of questions because they want to make sure that I will take care of her well.

As I said, this started out as real relationship.  I do believe she cared about me – maybe just not enough to really want to marry me.  While I came to think of her as the woman of my dreams, she never came to think of me as the man of her dreams.  I would like to point out that I am the first American man that she met.

Back in America, I eventually do see things begin to change.  However, because I am in love with her, when she tells me she wants to see me again, I hop on a plane and go visit her …

... in response to Our beginnings - long., posted by Richard on May 21, 2002


I think everyone (including you) agrees that you should move on.

I am curious, though...

You said that she made you feel like she loved you back, and mentioned some of the little things that she did that made you feel this way.

What about things she said? Did she tell you that she loved you? Did she have any pet names for you? Did you ever communicate without an interpreter?

I guess that if you asked her to marry you, and she said she had to think about it, that you had never discussed this before?

She never told you that you were "the one" or that she wanted to live with you forever, or anything like that?

My (limited) experience has been that the FSU women is, usually, extremely romantic, and these kinds of things flow from their lips rather easily.

Nothing like that?

... in response to Question, posted by MarkInTx on May 21, 2002

Well, both of us are very quiet people, and don't talk much. (I know that this is a real recipe for disaster.)
I will admit to not being a peopple person, and could easily have misread many things.  Many years ago, I switched carrers from a people job (reference librarian) to a non people job (computer programmer).

We communicated most of the time without an interpreter.  I now realize that her command of English is not as good as I thought it was.

We spend a lot of time together on my first trip to Kiev.  I first met her about halfway through my first trip to Kiev.  We spent time together on 4 of my remaining 5 days in Kiev.  The first day we met twice: a short intro meeting and then dinner.  After dinner we walked along Kreshatyk and I wrote the Metro with her on her way home.  When we got off the Metro, she put me in a cab to go home.  After I returned home, she told me that she should have taken me home to meet her family.  

On our second trip we spend the most amount of time together while were were in Crimea for a week.  There was one occassion when she told me she was very comfortable with me.  She would often reply "me too" when I told her I loved her or would smile back at me.  When I would put my arm arround her she would place her arm over mine and press it close to her side. It was things like that that made me feel this way.

We also grew closer physicaly.  During my first visit to Kiev, we went to Andrivsky Downhill.  On the way back she had a panic attack when I asked to come up to my apartment to drop of my purchases then I would walk her to Kreshatyk Metro.  (As I said, I knew this relationship was very risky from the start.)  I may be a major moron for not walking away from her at this time, but this was our third time together. We had spent a good part of a Sunday together.  I had already begun to really care about her at this point. I am also a risk taker and often pay the price for the risk I take.  (Yes, I can say moron.) I was a volunteer fireman and screwed up royally one night and fell off the moving fire engine. This is another example.

While in Crimea we went from sleeping in separate beds to sharing the same bed.  This progression also made me feel
that she cared about me.

There were a few incidents between April and October of last year when I didn't call or write as often as I should have. When I did call, she would want to know why I hadn't called for so long.

As I've said, I did sense a decline in the level of affection / attention from her.  I've addmitted to not being a people person and to wanting her to be in love with me.  I probably missed things and misread many others.

She did have a pet name for me: she would often address me as "my dear".

When I proposed I geuss I did spring it on her out of the blue as we had not discussed it.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

Richard, FWIW couple comments...

Her words about expensive taste, do NOT mean that she is a scammer. There is a saying in Russia "I am not so rich to buy cheap things". That can be intepreted as "I would rather buy one expensive piece of clothing (furniture, jewelry, etc), than spend money buying a new one every year (month, etc).

I think it is "other things that bothered me" which are more important. My golden rule is that things should be perfect from the very beginning (as for personal relationship and for anything else if it supposed to work out), if something bothers you, than something IS wrong.

Good luck to you,

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Trip Report - long, posted by RW on May 20, 2002

RW,

One can go in circles discussing things but your Golden Rule cuts through all of this. I am sure that there are wonderful marriages that had in the beginning difficult times but, it is hard to go wrong if one follows your golden rule.

My golden rule is that things should be perfect from the very beginning (as for personal relationship and for anything else if it supposed to work out), if something bothers you, than something IS wrong.

... in response to Re: Trip Report - long, posted by RW on May 20, 2002

RW,

Thanks... I love some of these Russian Sayings...

I remember one other one you quoted once, that I have thought of many times:

"Where there is passion, you find a way...
Where there is not... you find an excuse..."

Keep the Russian Sayings coming!

... in response to Re: Trip Report - long, posted by RW on May 20, 2002

I agree that having expensive tastes alone does not make her a scammer.  The requests were one of many things that bothered me last week and even before.  It the accumulation of things that has brought me to where I am now.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002


Not that you really need anyone's advice on this... sounds like you are thinking about all of the things you should be...

I just wanted to say two things:

If Expensive Tastes makes a woman a scammer then every AW I have ever known is a scammer.

However, having said that... although a woman who admitted to having expensive tastes is not a scammer, she isn't why you travelled to Ukraine looking for a woman, either.

If you wanted a woman who said she loved you but wanted you to provide her with expensive jewlry and a flat screen TV... you could have stayed in America...

I am curious, though... what do flat TV screens go for in Ukraine. Last I checked here they were about $5K... she wanted you to buy this for her before you left?

What was her reasoning? She could learn English better for you if she could watch American TV with higher resolution?

... in response to Expensive Tastes, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

...by buying the flat screen TV in the US.  Say it would cost so much to move the TV to the US from Ukraine so you just got it here and it's sitting in your living room waiting for her to watch it.  

... in response to Tell her you saved money, posted by BubbaGump on May 20, 2002

She's never going to get to watch it! (Big grin)

... in response to There may be a flat screen tv in my livi..., posted by Richard on May 20, 2002

"you guessed 'er, Chester." (big s___ eating grin)

... in response to Expensive Tastes, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

I don’t know about all that... he talked about not communicating correctly...
 If he was walking by a store that he a big screen flat T.V. advertised and she said Oh I want this… Then that would be different than if she had a T.V. all picked out and all the details thought out etc.  Remember they are feeling us out just as much as we are feeling them out…  It is a process that from my limited experience I think you have to go threw.  Doesn’t mean she is a scammer right off but also not in your best interest either, screwed up game here we all have chosen to play……

... in response to Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Ryan on May 20, 2002


Only Richard can answer this.

But in his post, he said: "She wanted me to buy her things: Like a flat screen TV and expensive jewlry"

That doesn't sound to me lik esomeone who made a comment that she liked something in a store window. That sounds to me like someone who said: "I like that. Buy it for me..."

... in response to Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

This part is not a misunderstanding.  

When I visited her last October, her family has only a black and white TV.  When I changed money in Hrivna, we did so in an electronics store because of the exchange rate.  I saw her looking at the TVs, and asked if she wanted one. (Stupid me.)  A few days later she suggests getting one and takes me to another store.  She points to flat screen TV (don't remember the size; prices starting around 5000 UAH or 1000USD). I am shocked and start looking around.  She next asks for a VCR.  I tell her I thought she wanted a TV. She wants both. When I try to do some comparison-shopping, she gets upset and we leave.

As to the jewelry: we are in and out of jewelry stores looking.  The next to last night I'm in town she takes me back to one store and tells me she wants earrings to match her engagement ring.  She selects a pair that cost over 1500 UAH or 300 USD

Additional background:

After my initial offer to buy a TV, I had dinner with her family at her place.  Instead of one black and white TV, they have two color TVs and a VCR.  When I finally get around to asking her about this, she tells me that they had to take the color TVs and the VCR and to the village house and bring the black and white TV to the apartment they live in every day.  (This is one of the things she told me that I couldn’t believe no matter how much I want to believe her. Unfortunately, I did want to believe her.)

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Richard on May 20, 2002

I'm going to raise my eyebrows and say!

"YOU HAVE A TV SET!!!"  

Then I would say "I wish I had one, but I am on a limited budget and besides, I work so much when would I find the time to watch it."

After that I would say "What is a VCR?"
==
You could bragg to her about your AM radio, it picks up radio stations, but it is broken at the present time and that you are awaiting a special vacum tubes.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Richard on May 20, 2002

.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Richard on May 20, 2002

You left out too much information in your initial post. The red flags are everywhere and I think you should pass on this girl. Simply tell her that her tastes are too expensive for most Americans and you feel that she is not concerned with a good life and future with you but on taking advantage of your generosity. I don't believe she is sincere. You know this. She may have been sincere at one time but she changed her mind. At least she is a lousy actor. Time to move one and start from square one.

-blm

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Richard on May 20, 2002


I would say that you understand everything quite well...

Sorry it didn't work out for you... I hope you find a better woman next time...

... in response to Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

From what I gather in the past if you were a standup guy that had goals in life a good job and a level head that if you followed the numbers you could get the woman of your dreams in the FSU.  This is how I saw Richard and it is frustrating to read that he is getting the run around.  I just see that things are changing like so many things that change in the FSU area.  Talking to close woman friends in the Ukraine they are saying that the search for an American is not that big an issue anymore.  The reasons for this varies from too many bad experiences and publicity with Americans to issues relating to 911 to just plain a number of guys write but just never go and visit. The little things that we have all been seeing relating to agencies are all starting to have a negative effect.    Maybe the agencies will start lowering their prices even more or consolidate with each other etc…

... in response to Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

Point taken, can't wait to hear more on the story.

It is so frustrating to read stuff like this especially from Richard.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Expensive Tastes, posted by Ryan on May 20, 2002

It is especially disheartening since this was his second trip to see this lady.. and it sounds like she did a bit of a 180 between visits...

Hmmmm....

Did she think the fish had taken the bait, so she could reel him in? Are they getting that sophisticated? That's scary...

Or, alternatively... maybe she thought.. he's a good man on the first trip... then before the second, she had other guys write to her... (talked to other girls from the agency...) and now she is comparing him to others, and trying to make sure he is the "best she can get" before agreeing to come over.

That's why I don't like writing to women from agencies... before very long, you find yourself in a contest... and that feels very much like what I can get here in Dallas with the local girls...

... in response to I Agree, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

Yes, there was a big change between in her personality between the second and third visits.  The woman who ordered reasonable meals – entrée and coffee or dessert and won’t let me buy her lots of presents in October is ordering complete meals (salad, entrée, dessert and coffee), selecting restaurants that cost twice what the ones I pick cost and asking for expensive jewelry and fancy electronics.

The woman who was very affectionate in October was not as affectionate on this trip.  (See my post on our beginnings: I was going to include this in that post, but it grew too long.)

I *want* to believe that this woman is in love with me and asking for these expensive meals, jewelery and electronics because she has beocome really comfortable with my and is now really opening up to me.  However, she said a couple of things to me that just do not allow me to believe this.

... in response to I Agree, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

I met her through a personal add, not an agency.

... in response to Re: I Agree, posted by Richard on May 20, 2002

That's even scarier...

Is nothing safe???

... in response to Wow, posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

What is a personal ad? If it is from a place like Absolute.com my experience is that such sites are full of ladies with an agenda.

It is my hunch that the number of scammers is going up with each breath we take. They and agencies that participate in scams are finally having a very bad effect on the MOB scene. I also think that the number of good women who will take the time, money and effort that this venture takes to find a good man is declining with each breath also.

What this means is that the ease of finding a good woman from the FSU is slowly shifting and has been for some time towards the  other end of the spectrum being difficulty and flat out danger.

The effective way to find a good woman from the FSU is changing. Guys like Jack of FirstDream  I suspect are going to survive all of this. I say this because the small tour approach with personal ads prior to one's trip will be the approach that will be somewhat more insulated from all of this. However, if Jack he gets big, I would not count on it.

The best approach but not practical is to go over and live there until you find the lady you want.

... in response to Re: Wow, posted by thesearch on May 20, 2002

search, there are big differences in where to place personal ads and there are probably even bigger mis-conceptions as to the words 'personal ad'.

Personal ads on the Internet are going to yield a lot of scammers and scam agencies, period! I see it everyday.

Personal ads in the local newspapers that run thru the small villiages and the country, in select bigger cities and the surrounding cities to these bigger cities, will yield a much higher percentage of sincere, real women. Even though it is not scam proof and scammers can come from these ads, the percentage of scammers will be less than 8%, and this 8% is nothing more than my own personal opinion.

You are right Greg in that there is an increae in the number and percentage of scammers, and again I will repeat that most guys  only see the tip of the iceberg. This is why it is so important to deal with real, sincere ladies. Real, sincere ladies are not so hard to identify, and the first step is in communicating directly with her. If you cannot deal directly with any woman, move on until you can.

Things, ways, methods of going about this pursuit do change quite rapidly, again, as you mentioned. The smaller, more personailized tours will become much more popular. The large socials are just drawing too many of the wrong type of ladies. And don't worry about me getting too big Greg, by staying small you can still enjoy what you do, when you get big it's more of a job I think and probably not nearly as enjoyable.

... in response to Re: Wow, posted by thesearch on May 20, 2002

I'm not sure that you can say that the number of scammers is rising, and that the number of good women is declining.

I think that in many ways, the number of good women may in fact be on the rise, because there have been more success stories.

The scammers may becoming more of a business, and capable of more mass-market scamming... but I think they are for the most part still easy to spot.

I don't buy the fact that every time a man writes a woman and doesn't go over that a scammer is born. I think it is just as possible that for every woman who comes over and has a good marriage that ten more of her friends consider it as a viable idea.

And as for the quality of women going down, I don't buy that either. As the foreign bride concept catches on, a wider spectrum of women -- all types -- will be answering ads. It may mean that you find non-stereotypical women, but that doesn't make them scammers. Or even bad women. Just not what you expected...

Besides... All of these numbers are so anecdotal, that it really doesn't mean anything.

My instinct tells me that things may have evolved, but this is probably a good thing. Many of the first "marriages" came as a result of the "big tours and socials". I think that these have fallen into disfavor... but not because all of the good ones were taken, but rather because these things were a bad idea to begin with, and only now has enough data been compiled to show guys that it isn't good.

In the early days, they were successful simply because they were the major thrust of the "MOB" business. The internet wasn't as strong as it is now, and the small botique shops were not there yet.

Now, as the internet provides a means for more people tom communicate more easily, I think that it has shifted from a "MOB" Business to an internet Personals site with an international flair. I don't see that as all bad.

But, the Big Tour companies, anxious to keep the lucrative business (which is mostly fantasy, lets face it) is having to let "professional" and "semi-professional" women work the socials to keep the "new marks" coming in. I think the days of the big tour and social are numberd... and I say, thank God for that!

But I really don't think that good women are staying away from American Men. I think they just are staying away from socials. And, probably the big "Marriage Agencies".

I think a personal ad placed in the newspapers in Ukraine or Russia will net you a better reult today than five years ago. I think this simply because more of the women who would not have considered it before may know someone now who has done it. Some of the stigma is gone.

I have nothing to back that up. It's just an instinct I get from the women I've written to. Even comparing it to just a year ago, I see a difference...

And the difference is not bad... IMHO

... in response to Agree only in Part  (long), posted by MarkInTx on May 20, 2002

what i meant by the number of good women going down is that among the women who are readily available via internet, direct mail etc. there is an increase in scammers and thus a percentage reduction of good women in the pool. there is a shift going on here.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

I wish you the best Richard...  It really hits home when you talk about a situation with two people who don't communicate well. I tend to jump to conclusions and she doesn't volunteer things that she should.  That has to be the number one issue with these types of relationships and knowing a lot about scamming stories and such does not always help as it is always on your mind.  Be strong like you said she asked but you never gave.  Nothing wrong with what you or her did, you should be happy.  Hang on and keep riding it, Keep us posted on how things work out.

... in response to Re: Trip Report - long, posted by Ryan on May 20, 2002

Is there now at the threshold of being just like Moscow women (what I have heard about them).  Due to this being the capital city where it's a MONEY central for Ukraine.
--
Lords knows how many guys from all these overpriced tours who have been spoonfeed alot of this 'poor them' information, and then go on a buying spree for them.

These CITY ladies are geared for making money.
They have to it's a very expensive place.
And they will do whatever it takes...Because, when you leave...In arrives another dude from another tour bus.

So, in my disposition.  It would be wise to go other smaller cities in Ukraine where there is a lesser "WESTERNIZED MENTALITY".

No doubt there are some good women in Kiev that you'll over look, but they are few and far in between.
--
I think also a bigger problem exisit that sometime we don't address is that allot of guys just go over there for sex.

They have no desire to find a mate, they're in the playeing
mode.  And this could have a severe effect on you finding a woman as well.  Since these guys will tell a woman something to just get their way with her.  

Heck, why do you think some of these women scam you.  Probably because someone scammed them initally.

... in response to Re: My viewpoint on Kiev women, posted by wsbill on May 20, 2002

I agree with your line of thinking the closes that I can associate this with is gambling.  You can know all the steps to being a good player but when it comes right down to it Luck is all you really need.  You get sucked into this search like a gambling addict and it is hard to shake.  You feel like you have to give it just one more try and this time it will pay off.  If I do it this way as opposed to doing it that way it will pay off.  

It is just too complicated and I am not interested in complicated.  Go to the FSU as a vacation and have a good time if you meet someone then fine.  Go sight seeing and balance your time and effort, don’t get your hopes built up or count on anyone or anything to pan out like you want it.  Don’t let some woman steal your heart but don’t be all closed either.  Wow I could go on and on about this same old sort of stuff.  No real answer to any of this the only true thing that sticks out is that this process will cost you more money and time than you ever imagined it would….

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

He would chew you up big time. He would say you do not have a friking brain if you are serious about this bimbo. She will eat you up and dump you for the next meal ticket once your bank account gets low. Geeesssh

You sound like a decent guy - go find a decent woman.

by the way I would like a flat screen also - but make it high definition plz or I don't want it. :)) But first I need a new car to pick it up in etc etc.

... in response to Whoa good thing LP is not here, posted by greg2 on May 19, 2002

what makes you think your going to get a flat screen tv when she didn't.  remember, I said she asked for things, I never said she got them.

... in response to Trip Report - long, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

.

... in response to Is this the same woman you are engaged t..., posted by JR on May 19, 2002

nt

... in response to Yes nt, posted by Richard on May 19, 2002

Are you going to start on the paperwork or go to another region of Ukraine and do some further searching.

... in response to Re: So what's going on in your mind ?, posted by wsbill on May 19, 2002

If he sticks with this one he might not have the funds to go back

... in response to Re: Re: So what's going on in your mind ..., posted by thesearch on May 20, 2002

See the post headed My two biggest mistakes.