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I am fairly new to this scene, and enjoy and am
learning alot from this site. I have been to Russia
last summer and am going back in the fall. I have been
corresponding to several RW's and I have an ad or two
out on various web sites. I get alot of email from
RW's with a child contacting me first and have not
responded.
I really am only looking for an woman without kids,
but want to have my own.
My question is I read about alot of AM who I assume
have not had kids before marrying RW with a child. Did
you seek this out, or did it just happen to occur that
the woman you were most attracted to happen to have a
child?

I never sought it out.

Personnaly it seems most of the 'bad' stories I read
about involve RW with child, and this may be because
her first priority is not the man but her child.

A woman's first priority will always be her child, no
matter what country she's from. Most of the problems
that emerge from these marriages comes from the
difficulty the AM has in understanding the nature of
a stepparent relationship, as opposed to an original
parent relationship. They are two totally, TOTALLY
different things.

think marrying a woman with a child has to add twice
or more of the eventual cost and involve twice the
risk of things going wrong, but I could be mistaken.

I have been only corresponding and speaking to RW that
have the following characterists to increase my odds
of success,

1) She must be learning english (shows desire to
leave)
2) is taller that 165 cm, I am 6' 3" myself
3) her parents must be both living (health is
inherited)
4) her parents must be still married (tends to make
her more stable, take marriage serious)
5) prefer teacher/nurse profession (service/people
oriented, not materialistic)
6) age 28-33 (more mature, more likely to be serious,
not too old to raise 2 kids)

Any comment would be welcome.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

I think you're on the right track regarding expectations; I note that your list covers only those items that are physically verifiable. My list looks pretty much the same, except I also am concerned about birth order, is she the oldest child?, ect.

The one angle you need to consider about women in their late 20's+ in FSU is the issue of abortion as birth control; poorly performed abortions can lead to infertility, this is important if you want to have children of your own. Don't know how this is verifiable, but something to think about.

I would think a second list of expectations should address intangible issues such as personality, values, spiritual beliefs, etc.

The other side of the expectations game is just as important. What are her expectations?, are they realistic, can you help fulfill them? Are her expectations based on her current life,or has she watched too many episodes of "Dallas" and think that's what life in the US is. Many expectations are hidden in the subconscious, that's why it's important to take your time with this process.

Expectations, whether realistic or not and our ability to adjust them to reality is the key to happiness. As KenC says below, too many men go into this without any criteria other than beauty. Keep thinking independently!

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without? Expectati..., posted by NW Jim on Mar 30, 2002

I have to say birth order is something to think about but only with AW's. I havn't met that many RW with siblings.
I prefer AW that are not first born. But RW's I don't think it makes a difference, What do you look for in birth order and why.
Pete

... in response to birth order, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Read a book many years ago entitled "The Birth Order Factor" that has influenced my thinking on this; my observation of people shows that it is generally true.

Basic theory is that oldest children/only children are leaders, conform to rules; middle children tend to have good people skills as they are in the middle, and youngest children tend to be the creative/rebel/unconventional.

The second part is that you should not marry someone who is in the same birth order as yourself, particularly if you're the oldest or the youngest. Two people who are the oldest will fight for control, a couple made up of the youngest will be chaotic.

You are right most of the women from FSU are only children; as the oldest in my family I don't care to battle another for control. That is one of the many reasons I'm focusing on latin America and not FSU.

... in response to Re: birth order, posted by NW Jim on Mar 30, 2002

I have heard much about this and it well known. But my experince is this which flied on the fact of you prevoius statement.
I am a middle child. My older sister, who is the oldest, married a oldest of 7 and they are doing well after 20 years. My youngest brother is youngest of 4 and is married to someone who is the youngest of 4 and after 13 years same result. I just think you need to be aware of the various factors.
Oldest girls tend to be high achievers and very responsible.
Only child, which seems to be the majority of what I see out there in FSU can't be typecasted since they are common IMHO. Alot depends on the parents, or parent, which brings me back to look for what the parents are doing and you will see the future in the RW.

... in response to Re: birth order, posted by NW Jim on Mar 30, 2002

Definite food for thought.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

As many of the posts below suggest, your criteria may be very restrictive and limit your options, but there's nothing wrong with having high standards.  More importantly, though, it has been my experience that having a woman with children will make for a more satisfying relationship.  Women with children are generally going to be more committed and loyal than those without.  With the age range you are considering she is certainly able to give you a child as well as her own.  I would not restrict myself to single women, particularly, as pointed out below, there is a "stigma" in the FSU attached to women who are not married by a certain date.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Charles on Mar 30, 2002

Yes they will be more committed but to their child. I just see alot of competion among the stepchild and the ones you may have together. The reason they are looking to leave is for her childs future maybe more than her future. So the possiblity that she is sacraficing her own desires for her kid is where the problem really begins. This is what I mean by saying you are not and never will be her first priority. Also she wll be used to having alot of help from her mother and other relatives which won't be here.
Of course I see a situation if the child is under 4-5 years old being not as big a problem as if they were 8-12 or so.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Petem, in nice loving family there is no and shouldn't be no competition between stepchildren and the ones you share together.Everything, I repeat everything depends on parents. If you are not capable to love your stepchild as much as your own than of course yes, competition will be and you'll be the cause of it. I found out that alot of American treat and love their stepchildren as their own and adopt children even if they have children on their own. Believe me there will be no competition between children if parents treat them equally.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Lets see - pay double for everything (two physicals, two plane tickets to start), totally change my lifestyle, have some losers kid tell me "Your not my father, so who gives a fu@k what you say," in the near future, open me up to potentially unfounded child abuse charges.  Oh yeah, it is in my interest to take a girl with a child.............I'm glad you guys want them.

... in response to Why Double?, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 30, 2002

Oh I see you think that your own child will adore you and respect you and never will say such words to you.Well then who will be looser if you'll hear these words from your own child?There is always a chance.Will ever hear these words either from your own child or stepchild will depend on you as father and nothing to do with "some losers" stepchild.

... in response to Why Double?, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 30, 2002

My only wish is that you never find a woman period!  With an attitude like yours, no woman desrves that, no matter what she's like!
Grow up!

... in response to Re: Why Double?, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

I give you clear and simple facts and you come back with the statement to grow up.  It is obvious that the fact you will be paying double for everything, immediately changing your lifestyle and hoping that the change brings security is bothering you.  Sorry - but that is the choice you, as well as others make.  I'll start off with a clean slate, thanks.

... in response to Can not handle the facts, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

C'mon Bobby!  Clear simple facts, you say??  Here are your clear simple facts from YOUR post-

"totally change my lifestyle, have some losers kid tell me "Your not my father, so who gives a fu@k what you say," in the near future, open me up to potentially unfounded child abuse charges. Oh yeah, it is in my interest to take a girl with a child.............I'm glad you guys want them."

Where is there a FACT in one thing you say here!  It only shows that you are prejudging, prejudiced, fearful, paranoid and sarcastic!

I am sorry but as a psychotherapist, a man with attitudes such as yours will have great difficulty being happy with ANY woman, child or not!  Hate to call a spade a spade but your comments scream out for it!  This is why I say to you, "grow up"!  Be a man and accept some responsibility and try love instead of this stuff YOU call "fact", which it most certainly is NOT!

... in response to Re: Can not handle the facts, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

All you like to do is attack someone who does not agree with you.  I suggest you look into that.  Will you or will you not increase your costs by taking a woman with a child?  Is that not a fact?  Are you or are you not taking a woman who has been divorced?  Has this woman made at least two major mistakes in her personal life already ie. husband failure, child mistake?  Are you or are you not increasing your chance of getting a domestic child abuse charge?  You are afraid of the trouth but facts are facts.  I have no need to attack you personally.  I am just stating facts - which you can not handle.  Sorry Oscar.

... in response to Why Double?, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 30, 2002

the amount you pay more for the upfront $ is nothing compared what your going to pay the rest of the way. The health insurance, dental bills, clothes that are constantly changing sizes is where you really end up shelling out.
If they are very young it may be workable, but if you have  never had children before, its got to be a huge adjustment, a much bigger risk that it won't work. Common sense.

... in response to Re: Why Double?, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Man, you just don't quit!  Common sense?  What a hoot! LOL!I have never heard such ridiculous garbage!  Got news for ya, "it's a much BIGGER risk that it wont work" if she's NOT got a child!  Don't know WHERE you get your info!  The women who have been married and have a child are typically more stable and ready for a family and committment, it's that simple.  Of course this is generalizing, but it IS generally true..

Man, you say you want kids with your future wife, but all you talk about is how awful the expenses will be... I really would suggest you not consider having any kids..

... in response to Re: Re: Why Double?, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

with you Oscar, I usually don't bother getting into these types of arguements, but my experiance backs up your claims.
Aloha & good luck w/ you & yours...

... in response to Re: Re: Why Double?, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

Oscar,
You may be right that a woman with a child is more likely to stay in the marriage, but what is the price?

The end goal of marriage/reproduction is to push your genes into the next generation. More of your OWN children increases the chances that the genes will be passed on.

Raising some alcoholic losers child does not push your genes forward--in fact that child may impact negatively on any child you would have with your new spouse. These days how many guys can afford more than two children?

In the end it's each persons choice how they want to approach this issue. There's nothing wrong with choosing one path over another, so long as you understand the potential problems and rewards. Viva choice!

... in response to Re: Re: Why Double?, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

N/T

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

What a load of garbage!  to think that just because a woman already has a child that you will NEVER be a first priority?  That is ridiculous!  So when the two of you have kids together, then a man should expect the same thing? NOT!
The bottom line is that if a woman has her priorities straight, whether she already has a child or whether you have them together,  you will both need to put each other as the first priority and then the kids will be fine, but to presume that a woman with a child will be somehow LESS committed to YOU is silly!  I can tell you that the chances of a woman being MORE committed to you if she already has a child are GREATER than if she does not!  All you have to do is ask all the guys who have had their women leave them, whether they already had a child with them when they came or not!  99% will tell you they were single and had NO kids before they came here!  Of the men who I personally know who married a woman with a child already, every one of them is happy as a clam!

Later

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 30, 2002

Oscar,
Having a step child is a very very difficult task at best.  It is a lot more stress and frustration than you aknowledge in your posts.  While I agree with your opinion that a RW with a child would tend to be more sincere than one without, the additional strain of a step child will have on the relationship will offset any of the reduced risks.  Everyone wants to be the priority in a spouses life. With a step child you will be competing for her attention in some form or fashion.  That fact aside, you need to have long detailed conversations regarding parenting with your finacee.  Hopefully you two will come to a meeting of the minds as to what role you will play in raising her child.  Again, hopefully she will stick with the plan when the time does come. (Talking and doing are two different things) Step children are a very slippery slope my friend.
By the way, yes, having children of your own also further dilutes the attention you will receive from your wife.  There is only so much time in a day and children have a way of absorbing most of it.
As another poster pointed out, I would rather have a woman devoted to me because of her love not her financial needs.  Your point on a woman with a child being MORE committed than one without children is NOT a positive thing in my mind.  I would always wonder if she was with me for love or out of financial necessity.
KenC

... in response to A strong opinion isn't always right, posted by KenC on Mar 31, 2002

Ken, what you say is true, having a stepchild is difficult, but having ANY CHILD is difficult!

I also STRONGLY agree that you MUST have serious conversations with your potential spouse about these issues, this is imperative.. But just as imperative if the woman does not have a child, in my opinion.

I really like the fact that someone else agrees that yes, having children of your own will also dilute the "attention" that you get from your wife as children do take time..  I mean, some of these guys thing that for some reason, having their OWN children with a woman will be different in this respect or something, it won't..

A major point to consider is this also-
A woman who SAYS she will be a good Mother but has never been one and has had multiple relationships that did not work by the age of 28-33
A woman who committed and was married at the appropriate age and has a child that you can SEE she has been an excellent Mother with...  I'm sorry, but for me, it's not a choice-  I would much prefer the woman who I can already SEE is a fantastic Mother..  Not all women who want kids end up BEING good Mothers!  I know, because I have had too many of them in my office over 13 years to prove this!

And about stepchildren-  From my personal experience working with MANY blended families, I have usually found that the reason a relationship with a stepchild does NOT work out is because of the selfishness on the part of the FATHER, not the child!  Most of these kids in the FSU, if treated with love and maturity, would just blossom and be fantastic kids for any American Father!  All you have to do is look at the selfish attitudes on the pat of some of the posters on this subject to see exactly what I mean.  But the fact is that these men will most likely have the same attitudes with their OWN children as well..  That kind of intolerance cannot possibly be so specific, but is much more broad in most people!

... in response to Re: A strong opinion isn't always right, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

Oscar,
You seem determined to lump parenting and step parenting together as both being the same level of difficulty.  I disagree.  Parenting your own children is a very natural thing.  You are the parent that you are sort of thing.  It just has a natural way of all working out.  Being a step parent is MUCH more difficult.  There has to be more consideration to how the natural mother wants things done.  If the children are over the age of 6 or 7 thay will already be "imprinted" with a learned style of parenting.  The adjustment factor puts a tremendous stress on the relationship.  It is one thing for the woman to adjust to a new husband, country, language and culture without additional important adjustments to family dynamics.  Of course I am not saying to not do it, just to be aware that marrying ANY woman with children is more difficult than marrying one without.  The plus side of this is that I feel a woman with a child should have an easier time in adjusting to America.  The child will naturally fill up her days and will help offset any social isolation problems.  The child will be a big piece of her homeland and help her from being homesick.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 30, 2002

Oscar,

I really think that if a you have a good relationship, the women is less likely to leave, that's something we can probably agree on.  I also think that if you start a new marriage with a woman and a new relationship with a child it will be more complicated than with just a woman.  So the additional stress and strain from the adjustment might cause a marriage to fail.  I really don't know, and I'm curious also if you know 99 people to make up the 99% of marriages that fail statistic.  I'd be interested to see some studies or statistics on the greater chance of success one way or the other, if you know of any.

I feel a little uncomfortable when I see a post (and this is *definately* NOT directed at you, or any specific poster, but it seems relevant) where someone says something to the effect that they would rather have a woman with children because they are less likely to leave them.  Why? because I think a woman, and especially a person's wife should want to stay because they love their husband and also are committed to their marriage.  Why would that somehow depend of whether the woman had given birth or not?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs withou..., posted by HappyInBrazil on Mar 30, 2002

Women who are already Mothers are often more ready to settle down and make that committment.  They are also less likely to think about leaving once married, unless of course thee is abuse.  How often do you hear of men complaining that they got "scammed" by women with children?  Not very often.  Of all the men I have heard of over 3 years of looking into this, rarely have I heard of men sending back a woman with a child or a woman with a child leaving the guy after they get their green card.  I am not saying it has never happened, but almost all of the "horror stories" I have heard are involving women WITHOUT children..

As far as her having a child and it being more "complicated", I guess it just depends on how much a man is able to love, to give.  If you are like this "Petm" poster, you wouldn't stand a chance, because he shows he is unable to love and is only worried about his assets!  A person saying the things he has will not likely stand a chance with a single woman or a woman with a child.. Both will take an amazing amount of selflessness to work in any degree, something his posts show he does not possess..

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs wi..., posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

I think your point is that your opinion is women with children are more likely to be committed to a marriage, so if you seek a woman with children your percentage chance of having a committed partner and resulting in a successful marriage is greater. I don't have any basis for this, as I think you also probably don't, but it seems like this would be true.

I think attributing the men were (claiming to have been) scammed because the woman had not given birth is ignoring the entire concept of character.

As far as taking exception to my saying that I think children will complicate a persons life, if you don't think you will have additional responsibilities you are extremely ignorant of the logistics involved with raising children. I wasn't talking about the reward of having a family. However if you want to have an emotional reaction and say (or insinuate) I am somehow unloving and selfish based on this limited context, it seems like you really miss why I'm participating in this discussion.  My purpose is to learn and share, and really, you may have some strong views on this, but that doesn't mean there are no other valid positions.

I guess I'm starting to disagree with you more, and I'll have to say it is a person's character that determines if they will be committed and successful in a marriage more than any other factor.

Also, let's take care to not turn this into a judgement fest or insult match.  Agree?

Thanks for the discussion.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs wi..., posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

All I read in your post is hearsay information.  Give me the statistics on the rates of divorce for RW with children and those without children?  I say if it is easy to divorce once, it is easy to divorce twice.  A RW shows bad judgement once in marriage, plus probably has an alcoholic deadbeat father drop off a kid for her bad judgement (thats two huge mistakes).  Like I said before, I leave it to guys like you to rescue these women with bad judgement.

... in response to Divorce once, divorce twice, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

So Bobby, you are sure that first, ALL these women were married to "alcoholic deadbeats" right?  And what about the women who thought they had made fine choices, to a guy who was either in school or had a job?  You think these women married these guys when they were what they ended up to be?? I certainly don't!  People make their own choices, unfortunately, many of the men there end upmaking bad choices AFTER the fact.  They especially seem to change often AFTER they have had a child, as they do not usually want the added burden of a child to care for.  How many times I heard from an FSU woman that once they had a child, the guy was gone that he DECIDED he did not want the RESPONSIBILITY of a family.  Now tell me, how would they know this beforehand?  Just how is this such a bad choice on the womans part?  
Your generalizations are really not good Bobby and your logic is flawed..

Lets hope YOU don't find a lovely FSU woman who has never been married and who is dying to have a family, but then once she marries you and has a child, says, "You know, I think I can do better and I'm not ready to be tied down yet, I want to explore this whole American thing, so you take the kid, I'm outta here!

... in response to Re: Divorce once, divorce twice, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

I ask for facts and all you can do is dribble.  Weak.

... in response to Answers, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

Sorry, but you are not worth trying to have an intelligent conversation with..  Your "facts" are nothing more than prejudice and selfishness rolled into a big fat nothing..

I will not waste anymore time with you, you're fired.. God help the woman who ever might end up with you.. I can see the handwriting on the wall for you my poor misguided friend, and it ain't pretty..

... in response to Re: Answers, posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

Yes, continue to attack the messenger.  Some shrink you must be.  Yes, you are fired.

... in response to Divorce once, divorce twice, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

Bobby, I don't have any statistics.  As you know, stats for this stuff are non-existent.  What I do know is I have been married for two years.  My wife has a teenage son and, yes, sometimes he's very rebellious and a royal pain in the ass.  But I don't think you could ever find a woman better than my wife in terms of everything.  Before she came to America we addressed the issue of steparents and stepchildren and came to an understanding as to how to handle this that has served us well.  I do agree with the comments that there is greater financial outlay for a woman with children, but in my view that is insignificant compared to having a long wonderful marriage.

... in response to Re: All I know is I am Very Happy, posted by Charles on Mar 31, 2002

Charles, I think from his last couple of posts you can see what limitations bobby is dealing with here.. He obviously has some huge misconceptions about divorce, giving, children and women..
Spitting into the wind on this one I'm afraid..

Glad things are going well for you and yours..  It is obvious you are a mature and giving individual and that is indeed what it takes to be married, not just with a woman with a child, but ANY woman!  Congrats to you..

... in response to Re: All I know is I am Very Happy, posted by Charles on Mar 31, 2002

I am happy for you.  All I am saying is that taking a woman with a child increases your costs, you are taking someone who has had one divorce and the change in lifestyle that a woman with a child brings.  If you want to pay for a situation that someone else created and two people agreed was a mistake then more power to you.  Is that the advice I would recommend for most people - the answer is no.

... in response to good for you, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

I really do not see were either one is in the wrong.  If a man falls in love with a women that has a child, and he wants to marry her and be a father to this child, that is his decisions to make.  On the other hand, If a man does not want to marry a women with a child, that also is his decision.

The one thing I disagree with is saying that all RW that have a child made a mistake.  I feel ,that just like any Aw that married and had a child, they did not intent for things to work out like they did.  

Hey, I really would like to have a steak today for lunch, Am I wrong????  No , it is what I want.

... in response to Re: All I know is I am Very Happy, posted by Charles on Mar 31, 2002

That's great to hear Charles, one of the reasons I like to read here is exactly what you posted.  (We have a happy marriage and a good life.)

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs withou..., posted by HappyInBrazil on Mar 30, 2002

Good point.
That goes right to the motivation of the RW with a child.

If shes unhappy with the marriage for any reason, do you really want her to hang around for the sake of the child benefiting from your financial situation. I don't. If she is not in it because she loves me then I don't want to be any part of it. Lets face it, men really only get married because they are in love and can't see themselves living without this particular woman, whereas a woman will get married for all kinds of different reasons. If her child is her main focus she may stay with you for not the reason you want her to stay, which is love til you die.

Plus if you divorce your on the hook for support for god knows how long at 1k/month. She has an incentive to leave as well as much as to stay.

... in response to why would a RW w/child tend to stay?, posted by petem on Mar 31, 2002

Again, you show that the most important thing on your mind is your assets.. and that thinking will doom your relationship with a woman without a child as well as one who has a child!
I think a woman with a child will stay in a marriage longer not because she wants to benefit financially, but because she is more committed to keeping the family together and working things out!  BIG difference!

I think you do not understand FSU women very well to think what you do.. I have talked with so many of these women and most I have met and really gotten to know would NEVER marry a guy unless they were completely in love with him!  I have found this to be the case much more with FSU women (scammers aside of course) than American women..  Just my experience..

... in response to why would a RW w/child tend to stay?, posted by petem on Mar 31, 2002

"Lets face it, men really only get married because they are in love and can't see themselves living without this particular woman, whereas a woman will get married for all kinds of different reasons."

I guess men are the only ones with a truely pure motive in all of this.

... in response to Do you really believe what you just wrot..., posted by Philb on Mar 31, 2002

I don't know any men who's main  motivation to marry is to leave the country, financial security etc.
When you have little to lose, it is easier to take risks.
I only have heard of love as the reason given by men to get married.

... in response to woman will get married for all kinds of ..., posted by petem on Apr 1, 2002

Actually, that is not true..  Many men who look for women in the FSU are not necessarily looking for "love" as many do not know what "love" really is.  We must all be able to admit that there are some good men that look for women there but there are also some pretty dysfunctional men as well.  I know a few men from my own city who have gone there and they are looking for just a trophy wife, or just for sex (a lot less expensive to look for sex here in the USA!), or for someone to take care of their house!  They cannot sustain a healthy relationship in my opinion.  So I think to say that men only marry for love is not really accurate..  Men may not marry so much for financial reasons like some women, but they have other less than sterling reasons aside from love that they marry for..

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

From your last postit is obvious that you have never had children.  You seem to view The fact that a woman would scarifice her own desires for her children's as a problem.  All "good" parents must do this to a certain extent.

I think the real problem often is the fact that the step parent is unwilling to  sacrifice their desires for a step child.  The step child is viewed as an intrusion.  This can then drive a wedge not only between the step parent and the child, but also between husband and wife.

Personally, I would view the fact that a mother is willing to sacrifice her own desires for her childs desires not as a problem but as a positive

... in response to More on children, posted by Philb on Mar 30, 2002

Personally, I would view the fact that a mother is willing to sacrifice her own desires for her childs desires not as a problem but as a positive

Yea but if your on the short side of that equation, ie the one that is doing all the sacrificing because her priority is her child and not you. Ever hear of DV bogus cases, if it came down to her raising the kid in the US and being sent back, who will she side with.
Its a big added risk in an already risky business.
If you have had kids before, then this may not be much of an issue.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Charles on Mar 30, 2002

Read their profiles.

http://www.ukrainianangels.org/families041.shtml

... in response to Re:  There are some people looking for k..., posted by wsbill on Mar 30, 2002

Those first 2 girls looked like 10 year old budding supermodels.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

Will naturally have a better marriage.

Think of it this way in a pairing process that nature gives us.  Or that old saying.  Mothers love their sons, and fathers love their daughters.

If she has a son, her undivided attention will be on the boy and the boy sees you as competition for love and attention.  

However with a little girl, she'll be naturally attracted to you for love and will compete with her mother for your attention.  So it's a win-win sitation for you.

I myself, will now avoid a lady with a child... Because, I want to focus completely on a relationship with the lady and no distractions..

Bear in mind I've never been married, alot of you guys have kids from your prior marriages and have experience way more than I have.  I'm going to keep things Simple.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

You just eliminated about 90% of the women but so what.  There's 50,000 or more to pick from.  You have to screen them out somehow.  

There are a lot of high quality women that would not be looking overseas if they did not have a child.  I have to agree with the no children rule because from my experience with American women, they only want maybe 2 or 3 kids.  For every kid they have, that is one less kid you can have of your own.  A lot of women have trouble handling children and maybe 2 is about all they can handle.  You also will have to spend a lot more to get 2 people over here.  I would think it costs about $5K each.  There are only a few women with children I would consider.    

I think getting a woman with some knowledge of english is also a good idea.  I have been out with a couple of women that spoke little or no english and it gets frustrating to not be able to say anything to a woman without a translator.  A lot of personal questions you don't want to ask through a translator.  You eventually just give up.  I think if they learned some english they are a little more serious.  Plus, a lot of scammers ask for money for english lessons and if they speak english that takes away one thing they can ask you to give them money for.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

I have to agree with Oscar on the kids thing. A scammer interested in being a visa prostitute or taking you for all you're worth is far less likely to get their own child involved in a possibly dangerous and certainly very unstable situation. She's almost have to be desperate, and few women in the MOB scene are. With a child, she may think of the child first, but she's likely to also have far more at risk, so, I believe will work harder at making a relationship work for the good of the child, particularly if you and the child hit it off well. My sweetie came with a very darling 8 year old girl who I fell in love with immediately and she with me. She's called me daddy since we were married and I couldn't love her more if she were my own.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

Petem,
Your priorities do not seem unreasonable as long as you leave some flexibility for the perfect woman except ----.  I understand your reluctance not to be a step parent, but you should consider one thing.  A RW with a child will have a better time in adjusting to her new country.  She will have her days filled up with her Mothering responsiblities and also have a big piece of home with her (the child).  In contrast to what some of the posters say below, be very picky and take your time.
KenC

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by KenC on Mar 29, 2002

I am taking my time. My first trip to Russia was that it was another country of my 2 month E Europe tour last summer.
I am taking russian language course and listening to tapes to get a better education of the langauge than just classroom work.
I have tickets to spend a week in Moscow and a week in Kiev in October. So I have 6 months to weed them out and search out 2-3 to meet me in these cities. I am currently talking to one on the phone and she is very impressive. She is a teacher at a university in computers. She also lives alone, but not far from her parents, which is a great thing as she unlike many women I hear from is not living with them. So she is more independant than most.

Someone else made a comment on whether having both parents together made is easier to leave her country. I know I met a woman in St Pete who had lived with her only her mother since she was a baby. I don't think she could ever leave her mother, she has had many chances to leave and never has.
If her parents are still married the woman I think has an easier time leaving the home country, her parents still have each other.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

Pete-

Well, this was my 3rd trip to the FSU and it is MY personal experience, that if you are looking for a woman between 28 and 33 and she has never been married or has a child, it is very possible (not absolute) that she has some problem with committment!  Many of these women marry fairly young and family is very important.  So if a woman is older and never married or has no child, I am a bit suspicious..  I am a psychotherapist and at those ages, I would much prefer to find a woman with a young child who ended up with a lousy husband and had the courage to get out, than one who has been unable to ever make a committment..
From my experience there, I think a woman in that age group with a child is typically much more stable and ready for a committment in her life.. (please note I say "typically"). Why do you think THEY are the ones who wrote to you about marriage??  I would be writing to the women who are interested in YOU. Sounds to me these are the women who are READY for a committment?

I went SPECIFICALLY looking for a woman WITH a child, why?
Because I feel that there is much less likelyhood of her being a scammer than if she is single.  She is usually going to be more mature than a woman of her same age who does NOT have a child.  She is already more likely going to be more "family oriented" and ready to really settle down since she already has a child.  I also think that many of her expectations of a husband are perhaps a little more realistic than those who have never been married..
I also agree with the other poster that often, the women who have been married and just got a bum deal, ARE often prettier! LOL!

Regarding your criteria..

I would forget about the living parents thing..  There are MANY reasons that a parent might have died..  You must know that the mortality rates there are much higher and the longevity rates much lower than in the US because life is much more difficult there..  Could be a death due to MANY factors..
The parents still being married thing is also not really a determining factor either.  It could be just as motivating for a woman who came from a home with mostly one parent, to want to work hard to do it better!  The girl I have found has a terrific 6 year old son and her parents are still married after almost 30 years of marriage, but if they had been divorced, it wouldn't have made any difference to me in my decision, and I'm a shrink! ;-)

I hate to see you rule out this segment of women because I think there are some very distinct advantages with them, that is why I went looking for one and FOUND one!

Best of luck,
Oscar

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 29, 2002

Great post, and one from a psychotherapist carrys more wieght with me than the usual response.
One of the questions I always ask in the first few emails is tell me about the longest relationship with a man that they have had. I get a huge variance of responses. From a few months to living with someone for 2-3 years.
Some woman seem very conservative in their responses.
A woman who is 29 but has been in higher education for 7-8 years I think is not working on a fear of commitment but rather no good men to settle down with.
Of course people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as I am 41 and have not been married either. So many would say I have a fear of commitment. Everyone reasons are different for waiting.
I'll have to admit that the sites where you have to pick thru the ones having a child vs being able to presort them out, many are prettier who have a kid.
The parents being alive is mainly about weeding out the alcoholsim, cancer, diabeties & general poor health that is usually inherited. If these women are around 30, the father is at least in his 50's which is the mean age for death is the FSU. These are not hard and fast rules, but are my GUIDELINES for a first step in the process.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 29, 2002

Oscar,
You need to re-read the literature. Children of divorced parents have a greater rate of divorce themselves than children who come from intact households. Divorce impacts negatively on children in other ways too... they receive less education, have higher rates of suicide, higher rates of criminal activity, etc.

We continue to reap the rewards of the unthinking mindset that divorce has no consequences, with high rates of drug/alcohol abuse among the children of divorce.

For all of you who will respond, that divorce was good in their family because Mom was getting the cr*p beat out of her--save it; I'm talking about a general rule.

Oscar, best of luck to you and your lady.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? Sorr..., posted by NW Jim on Mar 30, 2002

Jim,

I will tell you I have done therapy for 13 years with moms, dads and kids concerning divorce.  And I have a VERY strong opinion about this, that if mom and dad are NOT happy, the kids ALWAYS KNOW it!  The kids are MUCH better off if they can see both mom and dad happily married to someone else, rather than watching and LEARNING how it goes when mom and dad hate each other!  That is where kids learn how not to be happy in a relationship, watching mom and dad fake it all the while being miserable!  
Can't tell you how many people I have had in my office (from 10-50) where they said "I wish my parents would have divorced a long time ago, it was so awful living with them"!

Also, much of what you say doesn't hold as much water in the FSU countries either.  Men there drink NOT because they are divorced, but because there is no work, little hope for a future, and they cannot afford kids!

Later,
Oscar

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? ..., posted by Oscar on Mar 30, 2002

Oscar,
The point is the chances for a happy marriage are much better if you start with two whole people who aren't bringing a lot of negative emotional baggage to a marriage. When making choices, choose healthy and stable.  

As pointed out in a post below alcoholism runs in families; so do other forms of dysfunctionality. Dry 'em out and they turn into gambling addicts, etc.

I deal with the after effects of dysfunctional people & broken marriages as part of my job--I say avoid them at all costs. It may be harder to spot across language/cultural lines, that's why it's important to take your time.

The goal of marriage is not to save somebody else from their negative baggage. Some guys get into trouble by trying to be the knight on the white horse. Choose healthy.

... in response to Re: Re:  Sorry Doc, you're still wrong, posted by NW Jim on Mar 30, 2002

Jim,  So what is "healthy"??

Who having a choice would not choose healthy and stable?  My point is that I think more of the women who have been married before and have a child ARE more stable and healthy!
They have had far fewer sexual partners that's for sure!  They have also learned probably more keenly, what sacrifice (love) is, as they have likely been alone in caring for their child.

Are you making the assumption that because a 30 year old woman in the FSU is single and has no child, that she has less "baggage" than a woman who could make a committment at 23 (when she should have) who ended up with a lousy husband and had the courage to get out?  I wonder how many bad and possibly dysfunctional relationships the single girl has had while the married girl has had just the one?  Who will have learned to play the "game" better??  

I don't remember saying that we should all run out and marry a woman who comes from an alcoholic family, so I don't know why you mention that, but if you only want to look at a woman whose parents have been together for 25 years, well, you just ruled out about two thirds of all the single women in the FSU as possible candidates and unfortunately, many of them will be wonderful wives in spite of the fact that their parents did not stay together..

... in response to Re: Re: Re:  Sorry Doc, you're still wro..., posted by Oscar on Mar 31, 2002

Oscar,
You're right by setting up expectations and screening out women based on certain traits you will exclude some women who would be wonderful wives.

However, given the limited time most guys have to spend in the FSU or elsewhere on the search, it's wise to focus your limited time and resources on the best candidates (those without baggage)and those meeting your expectations first.

Marrying young in the FSU is not necessarily a sign of healthy maturity and commitment. Marrying young there has more to do with cultural traditions and getting out of a crowded apartment to get your own place. People who marry young have higher divorce rates, that's part of the reason their divorce rates are very high.

The bottom line is that each man has to decided what he wants and what he will settle for.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  Sorry Doc, you're still..., posted by NW Jim on Mar 31, 2002

Jim,
Your assumption that because a woman has been married there before, she automatically has more "Baggage" than a woman who has had multiple broken relationships, is very flawed..
I met many very healthy single Mothers and also met some pretty broken hot single ladies...
Having been married and having a child does in no way mean the woman may  have more negative "baggage"..

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  Sorry Doc, you're still..., posted by NW Jim on Mar 31, 2002

Appreciate you taking the time to refute someone obviously just trying to justify his own decisions.  Of course each person has to decide what is best for their own situation.  There is no right or wrong.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? ..., posted by Oscar on Mar 30, 2002

Because it was fun to do.  Let face everybody likes to tie one on every once in a while.

I just don't buy that logic, out of work, no hope.  Notta.

Remember this is a mans world over there.  Something most Americans dudes don't have a clue about, we gave up that image long ago for the softer gentleman image.

We are no different than they are when it comes to drinking.
Go to a disco bar in America and you see all the dudes partying together and the women will be in their groups as well.

There are plenty of jobs in Kiev, only in the park did I see a bunch of drunks and those guys were in their 50's and playing chess.

I can't say much about what's in the suburbs and in those high rises.  Those did look pretty scarey to hang around on a dark night...

No doubt alcholism and drug addiction is a problem there, but they are a equal problem over here as well.

(Sounds too much like a Agency market ploy to say all the guys drink and are bums... and the women are sitting home alone watching TV.)

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? ..., posted by Oscar on Mar 30, 2002

Oscar,
Thats a valid point, but if the RW says her parents are a good example she wants to follow, then they are not the type to be unhapply married.
What I meant about alcoholism and both parents being still alive is that alcoholics tend to die before the mean age in Russia, curently 57. So as any indicator, if the parents and alive in their fifties and still married, I want to meet their daughter. She could still be living with them, but it would be better if she lived on her own. This is a woman I could see being able to move 1/2 around the world and starting a new life.
Its the ones that the father was never in the picture, she lived her whole life with mother, doesn't know how too cook because her mother always did, that I would tend to pass on.
She's gonna be calling back everyday for years, if she ever comes in the first place. This woman typically  has a hard time trusting men. I have met them in Russia.
If your reasons for that are why they drink so much, then why isn't the rest of the world that is in simular circumstance drink to that extent as well. Alcoholism is largely inherited.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 29, 2002

I'll lay on your couch Oscar! You make sense to me.

Steve

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Oscar on Mar 29, 2002

I have read at some of the child adoption website of parents taking the kids to the train station and just dropping them off.

No doubt a lady with a college degree or with some sense wouldn't do this, but who knows... If times get tough enough for them and their desperate they'll do anything.

Just because a woman doesn't have a child now doesn't mean she didn't have one prior.

... in response to Re:  You should read about adoption stor..., posted by wsbill on Mar 30, 2002

Good point.
I also have in a round about way asked their thoughts on abortion, or why is the high rate of abortion in FSU compared to other european countries.
Their answer usually can tell me if they have had one or not. Can a doctor here in the US tell if a woman has had a child in the past by doing an exam????

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

You described my wife exactly, but I didn't meet her using anything other then going there (Moscow) and striking up conversation with women. I thought I read that educated Russian women are not having children as often as they did in the days of the USSR so I'm sure there are plenty of  them like you want if you are sure in what it is you want. Although some here will say you sound like a dreamer, or a man that is looking at it as if you're buying an object and not a person, I say stick to your guns. No need trying to be a step-father when you don't want to be one, chances are the child will suffer more then anyone. Actually when I went to Moscow I didn't meet any ladies with children and I think that is because they are tied down and can't get out like most ladies.???
Mike

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Mike on Mar 29, 2002

I have rarely heard about a woman from FSU who had more than 2 kids thats for sure.
The smart ones will wait until they are more mature and that they find someone responsible who can help raise them.
Here's a direct quote from some corresponence I have had with a very smart RW:

***
After all the reconstructions in Russia there are tree types of men:
1) the men tht drink a lot.
2) The men that cant to have a good salary. they have a small sallary,
but
they are content with everything.They have many friends, they speak a
lot,
but they do not do nothing.
3)The men, which are called as "New Russian". They have almost all, the
have
a good sallary, but the think that the woman it is only a thing for
pleasure!Their wifves are often alone and do not have a lot of
happiness.
****

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

Hi,

I'm stopping in from the latin board, but your post reminded me of some of the lectures I got before I became engaged (I will be getting married next month).  Most of them were about not being to picky and lowering my standards.  (such unreasonable standards in the US like she must not be married (yes, I think separated is still married), she must not use drugs or be involved in other illegal activities, no smoking, must be capable of forming a friendship with men).  I did raise my standards when I considered all the extra work of meeting someone from another country and culture.  Maybe you had different criteria than me, but it will be your life and it will be the person that you'll be spending the rest of your life with.  You'll only marry one in the end, if all goes well.  

I'm glad I didn't settle, and you might change your critera as your search continues, but I don't think you'll be hurt by having some focus.  BTW, my fiancee meets all those criteria except #5, her degree and experience is in tourism.  But you're too late for her anyway!  :)   Good luck!

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by HappyInBrazil on Mar 29, 2002

Good post.
I stated that my preferance is for the nurse/techer types. It is because they are giving people, less self centered. They will make better mothers I think as well. I have found this to be the case in AW's as well.
A travel agent type person I also like since they have a real thirst for things foriegn, and are more openminded. I myself have been to 40 countries, including Colombia and Costa Rica several times.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

What you are looking for exists, but your criteria are so specific it eliminates a tremendous amount of girls who may be great for you.  If I were you I would throw out the parents requirements and just concentrate on the girl.  

My experience has been that most of the prettier girls looking for a foreigner in the age range you have mentioned already have a kid.  However, there are exceptions - good luck to you.

... in response to Dream List, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 29, 2002

Unlike many of you I am not only going on looks alone, did you notice that was not on my list.
Under age 27 or so makes for a close to 15 year difference, and the odds of eventual success decreases exponetially the lower age you go. At age 25, by the time you meet, marry them and they get the green card, they are 28 and still have alot of time to trade up and start over.

I still have plenty  to choose from now, I am tall, well educated, in good shape, live in a great place, and am well travelled. I look 10 years younger than I am.

... in response to RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 29, 2002

What else RW must to have in order to get your attention? Color of eyes, hair,size of clothes? Oh yes why don't you you look at their teeth, well you know sort of like buying horse on the market, she must have good teeth....

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Natalya on Mar 29, 2002

Actually teeth can always be fixed. I happen to have near perfect teeth, only 2 cavities my whole life. I didn't eat candy like many women from almost every country on earth seemed to have done since childhood to a great extent.

I did not on my list of priorities list physical, except for height, since I am 192 cm.
I prefer blondes as I am one myself, and my father and 2 brothers all married blondes as well.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Petem,

I know a blonde RW in San Diego that is beautiful, and I already paid for her dental work....LOL.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Wayne on Mar 30, 2002

My cousins live in San Diego. Aunt owns 10 houses there.
California to me is so different than the rest of the US it may as well be a different country.
If I lived there I think it would be near impossible to keep a beautiful RW happy and in place. I would think she would be hit on constantly by every CA guy around.

... in response to Blonde RW in CA, posted by petem on Mar 31, 2002

If you are afraid of a woman being hit on you are asking for trouble.  You have to expect a hot woman to be hit on.  It is up to you and the strength of your relationship to keep your woman.

... in response to No need to be afraid, posted by Bobby Orr on Mar 31, 2002

Bobby,
I agree with you completely.  If you cannot trust your woman, then something is wrong.  I almost replied to the post above because we live here in San Diego.  What should a guy do if he marries a good looking woman?  Move to a cabin in MT?  LOL.  Seriously, it is a matter of having a good relationship, trust and self confidence.  
KenC

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Natalya on Mar 29, 2002

I want them to smile in their picture just so I know they actually have teeth.  If I see 4 pictures and no smiling, I'm worried about those teeth.

... in response to Smile, posted by BubbaGump on Mar 29, 2002

I haven't read the whole story line... But a picture can be altered, it's really simple.

I don't worry about teeth too much... I have a sister and a brother in law who are both dentist.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Natalya on Mar 29, 2002

Yes...Natalya you are right on about looking at their teeth.

I put 10,000 worth of dental and orthodontic work in to my Russian wife's rotten teeth and mouth.

Check the teeth!!!!!

Just kidding...well sort of.

Wayne

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? You ..., posted by Wayne on Mar 29, 2002

Great that you bring up this subject Wayne.Based on your experience author of this topic should undoubtedly add good teeth requirement to his "she must have" list.But I wonder how do you know if teeth good or bad? Really? Going to ask for dental records or check yourself with the mirror?I'm telling you this whole topic irritates me. I do agree with some posts in here but I just can understand how in the world  somebody can say that this "criteria list" is reasonable. Yes, for ordering bride from catalog, maybe it is a good list and it’s going to work.But it's not working this way.I agree that AM have expectations and some requirements. Well I did too, when I was looking for husband. But it was down to earth requirements as family oriented, reliable, intelligent man...I just can't believe that living parents can play significant role in choosing your spouse or age or job.Totally ridiculous. How did he even came to all his conclusions...It is just don't make sense to me...

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? ..., posted by Natalya on Mar 30, 2002

Natalya,
I thank you for your post. I think it is great your are contributing your advice, it is well needed to get your bias in helping us understand your point of view.

You are correct that to start with a criteria list is like shopping in a catalog. This is what we face when we start (an online catalog of women), and list of criteria to select from, age ht, wt, with child, without, country etc. Of course you end up narrowing down the group  by  corresponding and then eventually calling, visiting etc.

Parents are by far the greatest influences of our lifes. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It has been my experince and that of socialogists that alot of our personality, health, attitude and values are shaped by our parents. GOing to a foregin country especially one that has gone thru as many changes as the FSU is risky business. Given that you have limited access and time to determine a life long partner. I think looking closly at the parents is the best single indicator your going to have. You can't efectivly go and talk to all the people who have been involved in your potential mates life proir to you meeting this woman, like teachers, old boyfriends, etc.

Please continue to post, I always read your posts first, because this is a rare chance to read what you, & RW's think.

What criteria did you use to sort out the many respondants?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs withou..., posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

was more down to earth compare to yours. I was looking for family oriented, intelligent, reliable and kind man.Since I was RW with child I was looking for man who'll love my child as his own.Thats about it. I had some reasonable age criteria in mind. I would never marry man 15-20 years older than me.Now I'm married for 6 happy years.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without?? ..., posted by Natalya on Mar 30, 2002

If she did have bad teeth, just yank them out and get her a set of dentures...

(I'm just kinding... LOL)....
.
.
.
.
If someone has teeth problems generally they'll have really funky bad breath.  

Course no tellin what kind of workmanship is required under all those russian filings.

... in response to Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Natalya on Mar 29, 2002

Ammen Natalya. Sounds as if he is shopping for a suit, and he may never find one for a bargain price that fits better than a custom fit Armani. People are not a product, or actually "mailorder". Since you are new at this, you almost sound like you are unrealistic and waisting your time.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Quasimoto on Mar 29, 2002

I know what you two are saying (or at least I think I do) but I am going to come to his defense here.

It is ok for him to have a list of what represents his preference. He may find the perfect woman for him who meets those criteria. If he does not, he may have to expand what it is he will consider. Everyone, I mean everyone has things they prefer and things they would rather avoid if it is possible.

Both you and Natalya have you criteria - however, when the list gets longer why is it that we start to think that it is not appropriate? I think it is because we know that a person will pass up someone who is perfect for them as they are rejected because of something that has nothing to do with who they are as a person. Most of us have been rejected by someone for a reason that had nothing to do with who we were.

Also, when we get honest about what we want, it does sound like a list of options and features that might be listed on the sticker of a car we might choose. But, this is life. We also conjure up in our head that the person is looking for things - nice breasts, full lips etc. typically what you would do in a true mail order bride scenario and thus the heart of the person you pick is not even considered. None of us want to think that we were involved in a process like this when in reality we all know that much of what goes on in people getting married who live in different countries, when only a small amount of time is really spent together prior to the decision to apply for the K-1 is a decision made up from a mental list of what we have seen and experienced. That is a list of sorts - because you really do not know that person yet. You are not picking that person because of who they are. You are picking them because of what they have projected and you hope they are plain and simple.

Just as KenC said when he was dating AW, and I have confirmed for me what he found - it takes about six months of dating to know enough about a woman commonly to know if she is for you. What looks good at first relative to compatibility can vanish during that time frame.

But back to our new poster. Note that he is asking about women and children and what the experience of others is - why? ---- because he is looking at considering  a woman with children I would bet - something in opposition to his list.  He is looking for positive feedback to support his consideration it seems to me. So, he is wondering about his list, thinking of breaking down barriers and eroding part of his list. I think this is what we would all advise him to do.

... in response to i am gonna challenge ya both here, posted by thesearch on Mar 29, 2002

Thanks for your support. You have me read right.
Really I have been doing my own searching for the most part, but read my first post and you did correctly point out that I have been getting emails from women with children and trying to decide to reply to them.

I did not expect this when I posted my profile on these web sites, since I remember stating no women w/children desired.
But I have been getting some very attractive women writing to me and then read on many boards discussing these relationships, and am always surprised at the % of guys who are single and bring a woman with a child over here.

I also read plenty of nightmare stories and many involve RW's with child. So I am wondering whats the deal. I have dated a couple of AW with child, but decided it was not my scene, but have very limited experience with that situation.

I can see if the child is under 5 being a different case than older than 5, as I think the child can quickly overcome language differences and cultural differences.

... in response to Re: i am gonna challenge ya both here, posted by petem on Mar 30, 2002

Choosing a women with a child opens yourself up to huge financial risk if it doesn't work out.  The affidavit of support that you have to sign to get her into the country can be used in family court to force you to pay child support for a long, long, long time.

I would have considered a women with a child if it weren't for our screwy immigration laws.

I just couldn't immagine paying child support for another man's child for 10 years, after being married for 6 months.

If she files a false domestic violence charge,  and gets her green card, then you are on the hook for both of them for up to 10 years at least.

Sorry this is a little negative, but many guys really don't know the financial risks when they go into this.

Wayne

... in response to Re: Re: i am gonna challenge ya both her..., posted by Wayne on Mar 30, 2002

It is a very good point, and valid, though it will not change my course and direction.

STeve

... in response to Re: Re: i am gonna challenge ya both her..., posted by Wayne on Mar 30, 2002

Support is until she is an adult.

... in response to 10 years NOT,  try til the kid is 18, posted by petem on Mar 31, 2002

nt

... in response to Not unless you adopt them N/T, posted by Philb on Mar 31, 2002

Phil,

The feminists have the laws so tilted in the favor of the poor immigrant RW, it is disgusting.

The I-864 you sign lets them grab you by your balls in family court.  Adoption, no adoption, your on the hook.

It's just plain nuts.

... in response to Re: Re: RW's with kids vs without??, posted by Quasimoto on Mar 29, 2002

Steve,
This process lends itself to lists like petem's.  He seems to have thought his priorities through very carefully.  We can call this "International dating" or whatever, but it still has a lot of mail order bride taste to it.  If it is demeaning to a woman to have a man choose her because of what he thinks are important traits, then she has every right to reject his offers.  You also have to consider that petem is just starting his search.  He may adjust his criteria later.  It isn't like he said she must have big tits and a nice azz.  Give the man a break, he knows what he wants.  Again, if this process is demeaning to the woman, she should not participate.
KenC

... in response to what's wrong with knowing what you want?, posted by KenC on Mar 29, 2002

You are right! I was a little hard on him. But I get tired of the meat market mentality of some of the men I met over there, and some of the incredible pickiness I have witnessed with other men in Kyiv. I am not perfect. I have never met another perfect American, and yet it seems no woman is perfect enough, or they get married after 3 days. Both spin my head!

STeve

... in response to what's wrong with knowing what you want?, posted by KenC on Mar 29, 2002

Thanks for your support.
Your right about one thing, very few photo's I have seen are from the back, so if your basing your search on that well you have to fly over to verify that end of things, so to speak.
Big boobs can easily be sort of manufactured in photo's.
Push up bra's, right angles of camera, wonder bras, you really never know until she near naked what you really got there.

... in response to what's wrong with knowing what you want?, posted by KenC on Mar 29, 2002

LOL! No, I agree with you. You might as well have a wish list. The women seem to (35-45, stable job, generous, tall, fit... etc.) Like others have said, just don't pass up a gem because she doesn't fit perfectly into the wish list, and don't force the issue just because she does.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to You've been reading the Latin board agai..., posted by Jeff S on Mar 29, 2002

You are correct sir.
The fact is I meet almost all of the women's criteria.
I have excellent income as a computer consultant, am tall, 41, look 10 years younger, in good shape, live in large city, and am well travelled, excellent health, well educated. My 3 siblings have over 50 years of successful marriage behind them. I can afford to be choosy.
Thats the problem and the solution is to be selective with valid reasons.
MY big negative is I have only worked between 5-9 months a year the past 5 years. I don't tell RW's that because they may think I can't get a job or I am lazy, but neither is the case. I like to travel and there are more important things to do than make more money.

... in response to You've been reading the Latin board agai..., posted by Jeff S on Mar 29, 2002

Relationship experts say that the biggest reason for the disproportionate number of single adults today is unreasonable expectations. They say this applies to both sexes. An "unreasonable wish list"! The longer and more specific the list, the less likely the person is to find a match or be happy. It seems unreasonable to me when you have never even been there. They are the same, but they are not!

Steve

... in response to Re: You've been reading the Latin board ..., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

I sure am glad I gave the short list.

... in response to Re: You've been reading the Latin board ..., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

I would like to add rich to my list.:) ( Smile)

... in response to Re: You've been reading the Latin board ..., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

. . . a certain age range, not being too short, being educated and in good health, to be unreasonable expectations? Because that's about all the original poster really said.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to Do you consider. . ., posted by Jeff S on Mar 30, 2002

Jeff, original poster put this list somehow differently than you :)It was more detailed and specific. You generalized it.I have nothing against your requirements or at least the way you put them.I wonder why Petem doesn't say a word after his post, I'm sure he can stand for his words and explain us what he meant better than any of us.

... in response to Re: Do you consider. . ., posted by Natalya on Mar 30, 2002

.

... in response to That's true  --------  Pete - Where'd yo..., posted by Jeff S on Mar 30, 2002

I posted this on a friday night. I spent the night with my AW,  and had russian language class for 3 hours Sat am.
Before you ask , she meets all the criteria but age, she is older than me.Her father was 100% russian though, but he passed away 2 years ago, at over 80.

... in response to Re: You've been reading the Latin board ..., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

Steve,
You read too much!  LOL.  With the glut of self help books on the shelves of every book store and grocery store check out, it is little wonder we Americans are so screwed up.  I do not believe that anyone can judge a relationship completely without being one of the parties in the relationship.  And every relationship has it's own set of quirks and exceptions to any rules.  So, who is to be the judge?  You wanna talk "Unreasonable expectations"?  I claimed I would never marry again unless the woman was PERFECT.  Hmmm.
KenC

... in response to Who? Dr. Laura?, posted by KenC on Mar 30, 2002

problem is Ken, I think you found a dam near perfect one from what I see and hear! Now that is unreasonable! Kinda raises the bar a little too much wouldn't you say. Now what would you do if you were ever divorced? Probably just give up and get a golden retreiver.

I have always said there are too many self-help books that women read. It tells a tale!!!! But it isn't only them. I am into psychology for two reasons. It was my minor in college (deviate and criminal behavior), and as you know, I worked as a crisis-line counselor for 14 years; mostly with women and some children. So how can I not pay attention to these realities.

STeve

... in response to Who? Dr. Laura?, posted by KenC on Mar 30, 2002

You marry to a perfect woman only.Fine. Others maybe don't have luxury of spending unlimited time and money in search of perfect spouse ( because there is always a chance they never find perfect one in this life) so they settle their life with the right person who is not perfect but with the hope that after living number of years together and working small differences out will become perfect.IMHO

... in response to Kenc, posted by Natalya on Mar 30, 2002

Natalya,
There have been too many guys going to Russia that have no clue as to what criteria they have in choosing a wife.  They jump on the first decent woman that will accept their proposal.  Now along comes a man that has thought about his criteria and some posters give him grief for it.  I am not necessarily agreeing with his criteria, but I commend him for giving it some thought.  The chances of him finding a woman that meets all of his criteria is another subject too.  I also know that when you find the "right" woman for you, you throw your dam list out the window!  LOL.  But in all seriousness, petem has just filled out the fields that are usually provided by agency website search engines.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my mind.
KenC

... in response to Re: Kenc, posted by KenC on Mar 30, 2002

I think Natalya is the sensible one here, but Ken I agree with you to some extent. It was certain itemized issues listed that troubled me. Some seem irelevant. Do you recall the list the women gave at the seminar given by that guy that wrote "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche", and "Women are from Venus, Men From Mars"? About half the women mentioned sense of humor, good character, good morals, or anyother character trait in their list of 10 qualities. Every one listed "good looking", "rich", "drives a nice car", etc. Three of the 10 women who read their list out loud, mentioned clean fingernails, but not one mentioned a character trait. I find it hard to believe you didn't pick your wife with something in mind more than her looks! Why aren't any character traits mentioned? My fiancee is probably less attractive than any woman I dated over there. And yet I love her more, and think more highly of her because of what and who she is. She is the grand prize! though no photo model. But she is really pretty.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: Kenc, posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

Your right, looks are all relative.
I know plenty of guys who only like brunettes.
A key personality trait I state a preferance for is patience, but thats why teachers and nurses are good occupations for that quality.

... in response to Re: Re: Kenc, posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

Steve,
I have mentioned Lena's good character many more times than I have ever mentioned her looks.  You must not have paid enough attention in the past.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Kenc, posted by KenC on Mar 30, 2002

You misjudge me! I did not mean to imply that. I have never read a post where you mention her looks directly or specifically. I am pointing out that you married her for other reasons. I believe that. I believe you did very well. But it is based on your statements and hearsay. As a matter of fact, the only thing I hold against her is that she doesn't like pearls!! :)

STeve

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Kenc, posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: You've been reading the Latin board ..., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

This is exactly what's wrong with America.

Our society has conditioned everyone to react a certain way.  It's like people who have only ate a salad from a resturant or from a plastic bag from the grocery store.  If they were to go out on the farm and pick lettuce right off the plant they would say it doesn't taste fresh!  Ha.

Now everyone is living their lives...Keeping up with the Jones kind of logic.  What America really needs is another great depression to reelin their expectations on how life is suppose to be.

Where did I hear that our suburbs are now becoming awash with singles, where married people once lived.  No wonder companies are laying people off and relocating their mfg. plants in 3rd world countries where in which a happy family really does yield a better return and a better mfg. product.

Who's expectations are you living up to ???

... in response to Re: Re: unreasonable expectations., posted by wsbill on Mar 30, 2002

I have spent time in far poorer countries than the FSU.
These people who are poorest are sometimes pretty happy compared to most americans I have met.
They are having more fun, get more joy out of life.
The expectations of many americans is out of control, especially career type women. Why else are anti-depressives are selling like crazy.
I can't tell you how many AW's I meet are never happy with anything, no matter what you do you are never going to make them happy, there's no limit to what they want.

... in response to Re: Re: unreasonable expectations., posted by wsbill on Mar 30, 2002

Some real truth here. The most productive males in a business environment, and the most faithful, are the married guys with a wife and two kids! They even talked about it on Dateline (I think it was Dateline) two nights ago. But our corporate culture is looking for the young whippersnapper who will set the world on fire.
Steve

... in response to Re: Re: Re: unreasonable expectations., posted by Quasimoto on Mar 30, 2002

It's like fighter pilots... they get the young bucks to fly dangerious missions.  While the older so called leaders tell them what they should do.

Same as true in the corporate circles, they want a young perform to stick their necks out and work 90 hour weeks, only to be dumped with a younger worker shows up.

Companies now days, will suk you in chew you up and spit you out.  The days of taking care of your employees are over....sort of like the retirement paycheck your parents might have gotten from a firm.

It's a dog eat dog world.