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Bill interrupted her harshly. "Look. This isn't Russia. This
is America. Football is a major part of our culture; right
now, every man in America is getting ready to sit down and
watch that football game, not go out and buy some stupid
flowers!!!"

"What you need to do is, instead of sitting there whining
and b......, you need to learn something about football
so you'll know what's going on. Like that new Raiders
running back, he's a new player on the team, he...."

Tears flooded Olga's face, as she screamed, "I don't
care about your stupid football game, and I don't care
about your stupid spinach and your stupid culture!" It was
the closest she could come to expressing how she felt
at the moment.

Her face in her hands, Olga ran into the bedroom, slamming
the door behind her. Bill roared, "G.....t, Olga, NOW
what's the matter with you? J.... Krist, man, we're just
sitting here at the table and you start yelling and crying and
b.... all about NOTHING! Can't I even TALK to you
without you starting World War III? F....!!!"

Bill tried to control himself. Ok. He was the "man" here. He
"wore the pants in the family." So he'd take care of the poor,
upset little thing. She just needed a good hug, that's all. After
all, everybody knows a woman feels better when she's
hugged and protected by a big, strong man. He
forced himself to calm down and walked softly into the dark
bedroom, where Olga lay face down on the bed, sobbing.

She sat up, wondering what he was going to do next. Bill
gently stepped near her and said, "Olga...." and put his arm
around her, like a father comforting a weeping child. Naturally,
Olga shoved his arm off of her with a sudden jolt. "Just get
away from me!" she shrieked. The last thing in the world
she needed right then was this big laut patting her on the
head as if she were some frightened puppy.

Bill leapt up and roared. "What the f... is WRONG with
you! I'm TRYING to be NICE, for G..ds sake! Why do
you push me away, d....t? I LOVE you Olga, I CARE about
you, can't you SEE that? And here I am trying to be nice
to you and you just shove me away like I smelled bad or
something! Don't you CARE about me at all? Do I mean
ANYTHING to you?"

Olga was so furious she was shaking. "NO! I HATE you!
I hate you, I hate your food, I hate your stupid football,
I hate your stupid country!"

Bill looked stunned. "Well, SH..., Olga, if you HATE me,
then why the h..l did you MARRY me? Don't you appreciate
ANYTHING I've given you here? Six months ago you
were living on $20 a month and scrubbing the floor with
a piece of cloth and doing laundry in the bathtub! And now
you have EVERYTHING, and all you do is b*** and b***
and b*** and B***, and I'm getting f.. TIRED of
it!"

Olga, beyond tears, cried helplessly, "Go away! Just go
away and leave me alone, PLEASE!!! Leave me ALONE!!"

Bill stormed off to the other bedroom, slamming the door
behind him. God, what a mess, he thought. All this marriage
agency bu&**t about Russian women being "cozy little
housewives." What a bunch of .... 90% of them were
just scammers; good God, they get over here and they
just CAN'T have enough. Like this b**** just sits here all
day doing NOTHING, and when I come home all I get is
a bowl of f.... SPINACH. Then we get into bed and
she doesn't even want to F...K. What is this, a f....
HOTEL?

Popping a can of beer and sitting heavily in front of the
computer, Bill opens his Outlook email and types in,
RussianWomanList@y... Boy, does
he have a story to tell. What a pity, all those innocent
new guys that have no idea what they're going to get into
with these ungrateful Russian b****es. He frowns
at the keyboard and chews his lips as he starts typing
his message.

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

For all of this to be less traumatic you as a man need to be sensitive, responsive and patient. The allegation that many men who go into this do not have well evolved social skills with women if true posses an interesting issue. For those that fit this category, they are taking their weakness and matching it against a far greater challenge. As an analogy - if you could not graduate from high school because you could not effectively compete for the grades, if you found yourself in a graduate educational program, you would probably would not survive it.

Also, you are best to pick a woman who is strong and has a generally positive attitude about life to start with.  Also pick a lady that you are absolutely sure is crazy about you or at some point it may not be worth it to her.

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

Wow….  This post scares the hell out of me, but at the same time it really helped me gain some focus in all of this.  It scares me to think how stupid I was to even get into this search 2-1/2 years ago, for me it was because I started writing to a girl in the Ukraine, for me it was simple like dating a woman from around here.  Then I learned about the country, I didn’t even know where Ukraine was…  Then I found this board, learned what I though was enough and went over…  I was burned hard and I only had the best of intentions.  I just had no idea back then and am somewhat confused about all this stuff today but I think from reading your post I am starting to get a clue…  We are really a crazy bunch of mothers to be searching for love in the FSU.  

I had a friend come up to me and say that he had a friend at work that was interested in women from the Ukraine.  He wanted some information from me about the whole thing as he know I was over in that country last year.  I was speechless, as I didn’t even know what to tell him first.  It just seemed like anything I wanted to say just came out negative, I ended up just saying… Good luck to him but if he has a specific question then maybe I could help…  All that I think I know anymore is that I like my lifestyle today, I like myself and I have friends and family.  I just want someone to share all this with and create a family of my own.  The women from the FSU are said to also want these things and that is it I have been hooked ever since.  So I guess to get the best it really takes the extra work, then sometimes I feel like are they really the best?  All I can say for sure is that we are all a bunch of crazy mother…F..kers.  And that is the only thing that stays the same or is a constant in this whole search...

Good luck,
Ryan

... in response to Crazy bunch of Mother....., posted by Ryan on Apr 2, 2002

you want to make it. If you have all those things going for you then you're better off then a lot of people, just hold  your head up, if I can get lucky and find one very nice RW anyone can do it, but if I was to approach this RW thing like you, I too would have my ups and downs.  It's true being married to one isn't perfect but every relationship has its good times and bad times. I will say this, now that I know what it's like being married to a nice RW I'm happy about it and I'm glad that I didn't have to go through the system everyone else uasually takes. Maybe now that you're not so deeply interested you'll be able to go there and have a good time and stop searching so hard. I think life has a way of giving you what you want just before you're about to give up, or after you have given up all hope. It'll happen soon enough. I went there with no intentions of anything happening, just wanted to escape and try to meet a few women and have fun. You see I had given up on finding the kind of girl I wanted and never knew I would find one on the other side of the world. When I met Inna and knew I wanted her, I knew nothing about agencies, forums, news groups, or the visa thing, heck I thought they could just hop on a plane and come here. So don't give up, just enjoy life and if you decide to go there have fun and don't think so much into this, and don't make it so important and something you must accomplish.
Mike

... in response to Crazy bunch of Mother....., posted by Ryan on Apr 2, 2002

Did you ever think of trying Russia instead of Ukraine?

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

Dear Natalya

Wonderful message, thank you.  Much of what you wrote relates to American marriages in general not only those between AM and RW.  It is truly "food for thought."

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

and some nice creative writing.  Who was the narrator?  The plight of Olga is something to bear in mind.  It can be quite an adjustment,  I am sure.  Probably an enterprising lady like Natalya could write a how-to- book,  like an introduction to America.  So they women had a solid idea of here and functioning here.  Probably another,  a must read companion book for the new husband,  helping him to reinforce positively her adjustment.  And in short time follow-up with an instructional video.  I think you would rack up some pretty good sales figures.

... in response to Thanks Natalya & Olga, posted by tim360z on Apr 1, 2002

More sordid elements of Natalya's account (assuming a person is naive enough to believe Natalya's fiction).

The book, entitled 'America Through The Eyes of a Russian Woman', is written by Maria Knjazeva and is available in both English and Russian versions.

It is an excellent account to share with your fiance - and for you to better understand the cultural adjustment process.

Anyone interested in obtaining a copy just let me know and I'll provide the contact information so that you may buy a copy.

- Dan

... in response to Such a Book Already Exists - Albeit *Lac..., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

I wasn't to impressed, but maybe it was the writing style.

But she ask me if I found someone and I'm 41 and told her I was looking at 25-29 ladies and she like flipped out.  Said I should be looking for one at 36-45...yea.right.

So I set my sights for 32-35.  Found that girl at 35.

... in response to Re: I e-mailed that author and got her b..., posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

The book, or Maria's reaction to your intended age difference?

I will leave the question of age difference up to those having strong (if misdirected) opinions on the topic.

As for the book, I suppose I can understand that it might  not entirely apply to someone in your circumstances Bill. After all, Maria was writing from her initial impressions in large metropolitan communities (for the most part) and that stands in stark contrast to your rural/semi-rural setting.

I would have thought you might find the sections on her reactions to American-style shopping, foods and customer service quite interesting. I know that Olya and her mother really enjoyed reading the book, and it provided loads of opportunity to question and challenge the details of the book. I recall often explaining to Olya that, while these experiences were, indeed, valid for Maria in her experiences in California, that we would likely have a different set of experiences - and we have.

Still, in all, we found it an educational and interesting read - a bit lighthearted - and sometimes invalid for specific circumstances. On balance, it was quite worthwhile.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to What Was It That Failed To Impress You?, posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

I thought it was just too simplistic.  I don't know where Olya comes from (city or country life).  But from what I saw going on in Kiev, they are quickly adapting themselves to western life styles.

Perhaps in the country side where a ox and a whip are a technological marvel.  I guess in the older people circles they haven't looked beyond their street for the life thats going on beyond them.  And they're still stuck in the time warp... but the younger generation is like growing up with MTV and are much more on the fast track of life.

... in response to Re: It was probably a easier read in Rus..., posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

Values and morality.  Something, most American haven't got a clue what they are.

I think this is why I like Ukraine so much, the values have not changed over the last 100 years in the rural areas.  That is something good from a family raising stand point.

To me, Kiev the capital is turning into a westernized city much too fast.

When countries westernized to fast, they get caught up in the rat race and this is probably why alot of these poor folks are feeling so left out.  It's because the younger generation is making alot of fast money and quickly becoming the middle to upper class.

That Book was probably written in the early 90's when their independence was something new and interesting.  Now days all they have to do is turn on the satillite TV and they have the rest of the world to look at and all the mavels that come with it.

You might hear some of them complaining.. about not having enough money.  Before their independence, they didn't know they were'nt rich and now especially the pensioners feel so poor.  Some I have read, wished they'd go back to the old system.

The book was translated into english after the Russian version was published first.  Where I'm critical, it sometime reads like a Hemingway novel.  Simple words describing events.

... in response to Re: It was probably a easier read in Rus..., posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

Values and morality.  Something, most American haven't got a clue what they are.

I think this is why I like Ukraine so much, the values have not changed over the last 100 years in the rural areas.  That is something good from a family raising stand point.

To me, Kiev the capital is turning into a westernized city much too fast.

When countries westernized to fast, they get caught up in the rat race and this is probably why alot of these poor folks are feeling so left out.  It's because the younger generation is making alot of fast money and quickly becoming the middle to upper class.

That Book was probably written in the early 90's when their independence was something new and interesting.  Now days all they have to do is turn on the satillite TV and they have the rest of the world to look at and all the mavels that come with it.

You might hear some of them complaining.. about not having enough money.  Before their independence, they didn't know they were'nt rich and now especially the pensioners feel so poor.  Some I have read, wished they'd go back to the old system.

The book was translated into english after the Russian version was published first.  Where I'm critical, it sometime reads like a Hemingway novel.  Simple words describing events.

... in response to Re: It was probably a easier read in Rus..., posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

Bill, I agree wholeheartedly with Dan's post below. While I don't have the extensive experience across Ukraine that Dan has, I feel I have a good amount of experience in Crimea, and I can assure you that the folks I've met there are actually a whole lot more 'worldly' than many I've met here and south of the border!
Please, don't confuse "less worldly goods" with "less worldly".
Your comment does is disservice to Ukrainian people.

... in response to Re: It was probably a easier read in Rus..., posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

I don't know Bill, but in my travels throughout Ukraine (fairly extensive, I should think) I don't think I have met a single person whom I would regard as being unaware of the world around them - and certainly not Olya nor her family. Indeed, a quick check of the CIA website will confirm that Ukraine is among the most literate countries of the world - USA included. There are, of course, continued efforts by the oligarchy and political infrastructures to 'spin' world events in a manner favorable to perpetuation of the current wealth-building mechanisms for the few - but there are also now a sufficient number of alternative communication channels that the populace is quite aware of the conflicted information and many of the problems facing them and their country. Even people from the most remote villages in Karpaty are quite well-informed.

Maybe we visited 2 different Ukraines?!?

- Dan

... in response to An Interesting Commentary Bill . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

But, look when that book was written, early 1990's when independents and freedom of the press were just coming of age.

Now days, they can read from a variety of newspaper and journals or just turn on the TV and can see what is happening around them.

Prior to 1990, before the Walls came down.  Many have said, they were isolated from the rest of the world.

Does your wife talk much about what kind of life she lived in the 1980, 70's or 60's (if she's that old, hi hi).

I'm sure, they were singing to a different tune in those days.

... in response to Re: Yes, Dan, posted by wsbill on Apr 2, 2002

About their lives prior to, and subsequent to, the fall of the Soviet empire. You see, it is one of the more fascinating events of modern times (in my opinion), and I seem to be unable to get my 'fill' of information about those times and events.

Yes, my wife Olya tells me often about her life prior to 1991 - as do her parents and other members of her family. But that is the tip of the iceberg. I have also spoken to people that served as scientists and military officers - as teachers and as health-care providers - some that were children at the time and others that were busy raising their families. I only wish I could have had (or made) the opportunity to travel and visit and see for myself what life was like at that time. Propaganda on both sides was quite thick then, and I did not have the interest until much later. It is my loss.

Having said all that - it still remains that Ukraine (and the entire FSU) has for decades been one of the most highly-educated populaces in the world. Illiteracy is practically non-existent and has been so for quite a long while.

I hardly find any basis whatsover for painting them as backwards - even in the smallesst villages.

- Dan

... in response to Actually, I've Had MANY Conversations Wi..., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

On the Soviet Union.  No doubt, it would be most interesting.

... in response to Actually, I've Had MANY Conversations Wi..., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

Government told me or from the TV news...

Glad to see that education paid off at Chernobyl.

... in response to Re:  Hey, I'm just getting my informatio..., posted by wsbill on Apr 3, 2002

Aren't you forgetting about Three Mile Island in Pennslyvania?  We are not better than Chernobyl, just luckier.

... in response to Re: Re:  Hey, I'm just getting my inform..., posted by Richard on Apr 3, 2002

I'm just pushing Dan's buttons.

I know people in the rural areas of Ukraine or the USA or anywhere are not backwards.  Most folks are very aware of what's going on in the world.  Some folks, don't care and have other interests.

Some if they could would trade in their ox and mule for a AGCO or a John Deere Tractor and get the multiple attachments.  But for now, the Ox and Mule are paid for.

... in response to Such a Book Already Exists - Albeit *Lac..., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

it does make its point.

... in response to Natalya's story maybe fiction, but ..., posted by Richard on Apr 2, 2002

Make a point, that is. ClarieWitch's and Natalya's "points" have the same common foundation - and are equally credible.

- Dan

... in response to So Does ClairWitch's Occasional Charade ..., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

An above post by Nat....
"I have a problem"
Then goes on to describe an apparent stranger's problem.
I guess I'll leave a ?
Cause I didn't get it.
I lurk also.....
Karl

... in response to Hiding in the thread...., posted by tfcrew on Apr 4, 2002

A less spastic program please.

... in response to So Does ClairWitch's Occasional Charade ..., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

An above post by Nat....
"I have a problem"
Then goes on to describe an apparent stranger's problem.
I guess I'll leave a ?
Cause I didn't get it.
I lurk also.....
Karl

... in response to Hiding in the thread...., posted by tfcrew on Apr 4, 2002

Nat did not "have a  problem"
"Needed Help"

... in response to So Does ClairWitch's Occasional Charade ..., posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2002

An above post by Nat....
"I have a problem"
Then goes on to describe an apparent stranger's problem.
I guess I'll leave a ?
Cause I didn't get it.
I lurk also.....
Karl

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

I had $ on that game.

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

While it shows a bit of a characature of both the uncaring, hic American man and the young Russian women totally out of her element, I'm sure the feelings are conveyed quite well. Here's something I posted a while back about this topic:

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/show.php?asian/archive00052/messages/19227.txt

Keep up the reality posts. Some guys here sound like they need more of them.

- Jeff S.

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

Sounds to me like a case of a wife living on 'pins and needles' - and a husband that is insensitive to the difficulties of someone adjusting to a new country and culture.

The parts about the guy not being on "2 dates in 20 years" and all the surrounding description of his behavior with his lovely young wife - comes off (to me, anyway) as being rather trollish in nature. I find it hard to believe that the person directly involved in this relationship would post such a thing.

- Dan

... in response to Very Sad - *If* True . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

This particuliar "story" may not be true,  but I am sure there have been similiar cases and certainly ones much worse.  For the guy,  I don't think the "insensitive word" applies.  It is more of a total ignorance.

... in response to Re: Very Sad - *If* True??? . . ., posted by tim360z on Apr 1, 2002

Sure, there are horrible accounts of abuse by AM towards RW. These accounts are, unfortunately, a sad part of our society here - and they exist in most other societies to a greater or lesser extent.

What I don't buy is the style of writing. Natalya presents this as if it is a first-person account that she has copied from another board - which, in and of itself, may be true (or, it may not). What I absolutely do not buy is that someone preparing a first-person accounting would describe their husband and themselves in the manner delivered in these posts. It reeks of some third-rate romance novel - and carries about the same credibility.

- Dan

... in response to I Don't Buy it Tim . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

I don't think the cardboard characters should be dismissed out of hand.  I am sure there is a bit of truth to the premise.  Again,  it has to do more with the qualities of the individuals involved and the quality of their relationship.  However,  because of cultural and societial and language differences there are more hurdles for the Russian than for the French or Italian.  On the other side of the coin I would easily assimilate into the French culture or English or Irish or Italian---there is just more cultural commonality.  My adjustment to life in Russia would be much more difficult.  

I have met many Russian familys who have come here and adjusted to everything here very well.  Some adjust easier than others.  If a guy is going to marry a Russian girl and bring her here....he has alot of homework to do to help ease her into life here,  IMHO.

Historically,  Russia has been a very isolated country ruled by monarchies with near absolute power over the people.  Even the Rennaissance and resulting free thinking and concepts of democracy barely touched Russia,  except for the few within the monarchy.  The ebb and flow of trade and cultural cross currents Western Europe experienced again,  barely influenced Russia.  While Voltaire was writing his elevated thoughts...90% of Russians lived in a fuedal system ekeing out a meager existence.  

This June thousands of Russian exchange students will come here for a 4 month stay.  They will experience alot of contrasts to say the least.  A few will hate it here and want to go home,  but most will have an overall positive experience.  I have 1 friend who is 21.  She will be part of this experience.  Lives in a small town in Siberia.  She will be in California working at 6 Flags---what a cultural shock that will be for her.

Anyway,  most Russians can adapt here,  especially if they are prepared for it.

... in response to I Don't Buy it Tim . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

It was written to illustrate a point - and not by a psycologist to put down men, nor a dimestore romance novelist to titilate or sell books, but by someone wanting to convey the feelings of isolation and out-of-place-ness a wife fresh in from another country can feel. Caracatures of what real people are? Of course, not much room in this format to develop complex 3D caracters here. Boy nothing gets by you guys.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to Of course it's fiction . . ., posted by Jeff S on Apr 2, 2002

Russian wife problem, it's a relationship problem.

There are American women in marriages right now, that are in this form and capacity.

Of course, this was catered to us, to make guys think about their actions.

(no doubt, there are guys and gals out their in denial.  Thinking they've got the perfect marriage, but it is really one of convience and not of true love).

... in response to Of course it's fiction . . ., posted by Jeff S on Apr 2, 2002

Jeff you got it right. This story I believe is fiction and was written to show how hard adjustment to new culture and new life could be on RW. I think the story was created with such a sad ending on purpose to show the worst possible scenario so man can learn something from this story and don't repeat the same mistakes as Bill character did.

For all of you guys whos wondering. I did not write this story and I don't know the author.I just copied it from another board for you to read and hopefully learn something...

... in response to Of course it's fiction . . ., posted by Jeff S on Apr 2, 2002

Jeff,

You say it was written to "make a point" - and then go on to offer your interpretation on what that point may be - "to convey the feelings of isolation . . ."

In point of fact, the opening to the "story" starts with the premise that "90% of the Russian women we know here are unhappy, although of course they don't show it." While that 'statistic' may be factual in the experience of the author - it certainly lays out the perspective and context for the remainder of the story.

I know in my experience, this 'statistic' is far from the truth. How about yours Jeff? Are you the only one here with the perspicacity to see through all the smoke and mirrors?

- Dan

... in response to Very Sad - *If* True . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

My ex-wife's first husband, treated her exactly this way... (even worse if you include the slapping around a little).

... in response to Very Sad - *If* True . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

Of part 2, was very tiltatlating and a bit vulgar....
But I liked it ;)

... in response to Very Sad - *If* True . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 1, 2002

Sounds to me like something a psycologist would write.  Sounds typical of any male female relationship.  But all of these types of complaints from women happened in the past few decades when they demanded sensitive men.  Later they found that it was much worse and be careful what you wish for.  Now they say, "Thank God, real men are back!"  The whole story sounds like a fabricated story by a psycologist to make a point that men are insensitive.  My opinion is that men need to be balanced and not be too sensitive or too insensitive.  Being too insensitive will cost him his marriage and being too sensitive will cost him his marriage also.

... in response to Something for you to read part3, posted by Natalya on Apr 1, 2002

Keep it comin.

... in response to Re: Dang, this is better than some guys ..., posted by wsbill on Apr 1, 2002

Any good man with any kind of common sense could see she was living a very lonely life.  After 6 month in American and no local friends to talk to.... Especially her husband.

This guy main priority should be her.  Not some silly football game (he was rooting for the wrong team any way. Go RAMS).

Do you know of any women ... CURRENTLY, that are under these kind of circumstances?

Maybe, you should introduce her man to our forum here.

You have done a excellent job of enlighting us on the problems many guys fall into.

I think, the mere fact guys show up here, day after day is because we are always willing to learn from others mistakes and listen to other peoples wisdom.

And will weight the options effectively.